The Grand Jury indictment of John and Patsy Ramsey

[Cherokee]

I have always believed that Jonbenet & her brother went downstairs after the parents went to sleep & being overtired, over-stimulated by the holiday & excited about the next days trip they were going on all cylinders....

they got into some kind of petty fight like kids do & her brother lost his patience & hurt her seriously.

The parents heard the ruckus or B went upstairs to get them on his own & Patsy flew into panic mode & insisted they stage a scene to implicate some stranger in this tragedy.

They sent B to bed with instructions to not say a thing & to not leave his room until someone came & got him & then they spent the rest of the night concocting the ridiculous ransom note & staging a horrific scene that would divert attention away from loving parents.

When questioned, they latched onto every & all pieces of evidence that might be believed to be from an intruder... they denied knowledge of the flashlight, the pineapple snack, the baseball bat, the boots, the stuffed bear & I don't remember what else. Anything to suggest a stranger was in the home was their immediate goal.

IMO, this was a terrible tragedy that was compounded by their refusal to admit the son was responsible for her accidental death or at least her very serious wound that rendered her unconscious & they mistakenly believed she was dead because they were just too frantic to detect any heartbeat.

A stranger did NOT write that asinine note & a stranger did NOT bother to redress her in the same day of the week underwear except in a too large size. And a stranger did NOT care if she was swaddled in a loving way... not if a stranger was so brutal in murdering her & violating her sexually.

What YOU said, times two! Excellent post, and I agree with EVERY WORD!

The Ramseys covered up what really happened that night out of shock and fear and wanting to protect their "perfect family" image. After that, they had to stick with their story, no matter the evidence otherwise, or who it hurt. Their goal became self-preservation. That's why they were never interested in finding JonBenet's killer or helping the investigation. They KNEW where the truth led.

[koldkase]

I have always believed that Jonbenet & her brother went downstairs after the parents went to sleep & being overtired, over-stimulated by the holiday & excited about the next days trip they were going on all cylinders....

they got into some kind of petty fight like kids do & her brother lost his patience & hurt her seriously.

The parents heard the ruckus or B went upstairs to get them on his own & Patsy flew into panic mode & insisted they stage a scene to implicate some stranger in this tragedy.

They sent B to bed with instructions to not say a thing & to not leave his room until someone came & got him & then they spent the rest of the night concocting the ridiculous ransom note & staging a horrific scene that would divert attention away from loving parents.

When questioned, they latched onto every & all pieces of evidence that might be believed to be from an intruder... they denied knowledge of the flashlight, the pineapple snack, the baseball bat, the boots, the stuffed bear & I don't remember what else. Anything to suggest a stranger was in the home was their immediate goal.

IMO, this was a terrible tragedy that was compounded by their refusal to admit the son was responsible for her accidental death or at least her very serious wound that rendered her unconscious & they mistakenly believed she was dead because they were just too frantic to detect any heartbeat.

A stranger did NOT write that asinine note & a stranger did NOT bother to redress her in the same day of the week underwear except in a too large size. And a stranger did NOT care if she was swaddled in a loving way... not if a stranger was so brutal in murdering her & violating her sexually.

Don't forget that the ultimate motive for that ligature and sexual abuse by a PAINTBRUSH was to cover up the prior sexual abuse found at autopsy.

Even if Patsy and John might have been willing to deal with the fallout from Burke being the abuser, I imagine they didn't want to deal with the fact that some people would always believe it was John sexually abusing her.

Of course, we have no way of knowing it wasn't John. Or another male family member. Or even Patsy, as some believe.

Welcome to FFJ, by the way. Glad to see you joining in the discussion.

[Niner]

Sure wish there were "THANKS" buttons on this forum like Websleuths!! I would have THANKed everyone of y'all posts!!

People, listening to HLN read these charges, it seems clear to me that the FIRST DEGREE MURDER mentioned eliminates Burke.

He could not have been charged with murder.

So the Grand Jury believed that either John or Patsy committed the murder and the other one helped and helped cover it up.

Jane Velez Mitchell screaming LEAVE THE RAMSEYS ALONE. Nancy Grace agreeing with her. lol Those bimbos make me sick. I can't watch them; they're both narcissistic, mental midgets.

I don't watch them anymore either, Koldkase!! If I do - all I can think is

Admit it--you were fantasizing about the same thing!

snipped for space...

"What you have is nothing more than confusing accusations without any evidence to support the accusations," Wood said today. "It's fundamentally unfair to the Ramsey family and the system of justice. If you're going to make public what amounts to an accusation, let's see the evidence."

On Oct. 13, 1999, more than a year after the case went to a grand jury, then-DA Hunter announced that the grand jury investigation had come to an end and that no charges would be filed due to a lack of evidence.

Bill Wise, Hunter's former top assistant, said he backs up Hunter's choice.

"I think it was the correct decision," Wise said. "You just don't have the evidence. The totality of everything that was presented by Boulder Police Department was just insignificant to prosecute."

Jim Kolar, who is currently chief of the Telluride Marshal's Department, was a DA investigator assigned to the case in 2004 by former District Attorney Mary Lacey. Kolar published a book in 2012 titled "Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?" in which he said evidence pointed toward a family member being involved in the murder as opposed to an intruder.

Kolar said the portion of the indictment that was released indicates that the grand jury came to the same conclusion.

"It seems to me that the grand jury thought there was some merit to the theory that the parents, to one extent or another, knew what happened,” Kolar said.

That's what I don't understand - Mr. Lin Wood & others keep saying there was no evidence, but then Mr. Kolar says, if there was NO evidence the Grand jury would NOT have indicted them...



with leading the way. He keeps repeating it, and repeating it, and repeating it


Great posts everyone!

[RiverRat]

HLN is playing old video of the Rs and talking about the case. Patsy sure was zonked out by something when she made the "there is a killer on the loose" statement.

I like Jane Velez-Mitchell except about this case - she is just stupid. Read these forums, Jane - learn something.

The ONE Time Patsy did not lie ~ there IS a killer on the loose ~ STILL.

[Elle_1]

You've probably seen this, or it may be posted here. If so, sorry for the repeat, but your wish is granted:

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...tments-release

Thank you for posting this KK. I too, have never read this information before. So Charlie Brennan was one of the reporters on hand when little JonBenét's body was removed from the house? I never knew this before.

[RiverRat]

How can the Ramseys have been covering for Burke if the charge was for covering up first degree murder?

Burke was a minor who could not have been charged with First Degree Murder.

I'm not saying Burke wasn't involved at some level in the various abuses against his sister. Maybe the Grand Jury didn't have much presented to them regarding Burke because clearly the early investigation did not focus on him being part of any of this.

But Burke could not have been charged for any of it, much less Murder One.

I've often wondered if that's why the investigators didn't look at Burke too hard for years. Maybe they felt that was a road which would lead them to minimal charges against the parents.

It's also an even harder reality to accept if you have never studied the research or worked with victims of child abuse. People do not want to believe children can go off the rails so badly.

At any rate, I don't think these charges support the idea that Burke committed either the head blow or ligature strangulation because of his status as a minor: no first degree murder would have been charged for Burke.

It appears to me--and I'm no expert--that the Grand Jury believed either John or Patsy committed the murder and the other was guilty of not getting the child medical help and then covering it up.

Which I interpret as BOTH were PROBABLY involved by the ligature strangulation and therefore would be GUILTY OF FIRST DEGREE MURDER.

And again, it goes back to Hunter REFUSING to subpoena evidence, to call the Ramseys to testify before the Grand Jury, etc.

How can LE make a case against a child killer if the DA is OBSTRUCTING THE INVESTIGATION?

Only on Page 4 but this is so how I am feeling this ~ John has removed anything to do with Burke in MY eyes Now ~ that includes the sexual abuse.

[Elle_1]

KoldKase wrote:

Don't forget that the ultimate motive for that ligature and sexual abuse by a PAINTBRUSH was to cover up the prior sexual abuse found at autopsy

KK,

If a paintbrush had been used to cover up previous sexual abuse, it's hard to think that young Burke himself would have known what measures to take here; therefore Patsy, or both Ramseys went to his rescue. Plus, I have trouble with the fact if previous abuse was present, Patsy Ramsey had to have known this from bathing her young daughter. Surely JonBenét must have suffered extreme pain in her vagina more than a few times (?). I am absolutely baffled by this.

[RiverRat]

Lin Wood, an attorney for John Ramsey, said the released indictment means "absolutely zero" in terms of the investigation into JonBenet's death.

"The documents today are a mere historical footnote, a small glimpse into the grand jury proceedings," Wood said. "It's four pages of what would have likely been hundreds of volumes of testimony and exhibit."

NOT just any four pages but the most important four pages of the hundreds of volumes of testimony and exhibits ~ The Summary. Dang...poor guy hasn't got much to work with right now, does he?!

Feeling totally Validated right now with my PATSY DID IT Mantra ~ I never had the first doubt about being off on that one. Thank you, Charlie!!! Even if this goes no further, it's more confirmation of my beliefs than I expected to have at THIS point ~ got lulled into thinking we would have to wait it out another decade or so before something of this magnitude presented itself!

[heymom]

KoldKase wrote:

KK,

If a paintbrush had been used to cover up previous sexual abuse, it's hard to think that young Burke himself would have known what measures to take here; therefore Patsy, or both Ramseys went to his rescue. Plus, I have trouble with the fact if previous abuse was present, Patsy Ramsey had to have known this from bathing her young daughter. Surely JonBenét must have suffered extreme pain in her vagina more than a few times (?). I am absolutely baffled by this.

Elle, what you are assuming is that the paintbrush stabbing was part of the cover-up. Maybe most people think it was. My mind goes in a different direction. I don't think Patsy would have used her own paintbrush to do such a thing, too close, too incriminating. But I can see a young boy experimenting on an unconscious body in front of him, that perhaps he had not had that kind of access to before. Maybe he thought that would wake her up, if nothing else did?

We've said for YEARS about how amateurish the cord around her neck was. It was, and I also don't believe Patsy or John would have done things that way. I think they worked with what they found, and added the ransom note, and maybe cleaned and redressed her. Maybe. Still not sure that the perpetrator didn't do most of it himself. It's true that Patsy's coat fibers were found in the cord, but maybe that was accidental. Just things we will never, ever know.

Dang, I sure wish Chief Kolar could speak about what he knows.

[LI_Mom]

Don't forget that the ultimate motive for that ligature and sexual abuse by a PAINTBRUSH was to cover up the prior sexual abuse found at autopsy.

Even if Patsy and John might have been willing to deal with the fallout from Burke being the abuser, I imagine they didn't want to deal with the fact that some people would always believe it was John sexually abusing her.

Of course, we have no way of knowing it wasn't John. Or another male family member. Or even Patsy, as some believe.

Welcome to FFJ, by the way. Glad to see you joining in the discussion.

Thanks, koldcase. I've been a member here for ages, I just drifted off after a while.

I don't remember more things than I do remember about this case...

In particular, I don't know if I was 100% convinced Jonbenet was sexually abused in the past. I seem to remember there were conflicting reports on that topic. And suggestions that her vaginal irritation could have been due to too many bubble baths?

In any event, I do believe her brother was angry with the attention she got & by looks he appeared to be a very well behaved/repressed boy but those are the kinds of kids that lash out when nobody is watching.

Why is the favorite nightgown downstairs? Is he forcing her to dress up & give him a private talent show? Or could he possibly have been experimenting with cross dressing & that's why the too large underpants were even downstairs & eventually put on the dead Jonbenet?

Did Jonbenet walk in and find him with her clothes & threaten to tell? Did he flip out & attack her?

The whole family just seemed too anxious to NOT solve the case... I can only imagine the truth was pretty embarrassing & awful.

[DeeDee]

Thanks, koldcase. I've been a member here for ages, I just drifted off after a while.

I don't remember more things than I do remember about this case...

In particular, I don't know if I was 100% convinced Jonbenet was sexually abused in the past. I seem to remember there were conflicting reports on that topic. And suggestions that her vaginal irritation could have been due to too many bubble baths?

In any event, I do believe her brother was angry with the attention she got & by looks he appeared to be a very well behaved/repressed boy but those are the kinds of kids that lash out when nobody is watching.

Why is the favorite nightgown downstairs? Is he forcing her to dress up & give him a private talent show? Or could he possibly have been experimenting with cross dressing & that's why the too large underpants were even downstairs & eventually put on the dead Jonbenet?

Did Jonbenet walk in and find him with her clothes & threaten to tell? Did he flip out & attack her?

The whole family just seemed too anxious to NOT solve the case... I can only imagine the truth was pretty embarrassing & awful.

The coroner and many forensic specialists who studied the autopsy ALL found evidence of PRIOR sexual abuse. Prior also described as "chronic" In the medical sense "chronic" also means prior and it could have been as recent as a DAY before. It need not have been a long time before and it need not have been on more than ONE other occasion. There should be NO one following this case who is still unsure of this. The evidence was there, and it was found and documented. Not being able to accept it is denial and nothing more.
There was NO cross dressing. The panties on her were already in the basement, wrapped with other gifts for JB's cousin, for whom they had been bought. The parents dressed her in them.
Bubble baths do not cause bleeding, bruising, erosion of the hymen or widening of the vaginal canal or bruising of the labia. ALL were found in JB. The pink nightgown was found stuck on the white blanket that JB was wrapped in. It may have come out of the dryer stuck to the blanket, or she may have been wearing it when the abuse took place- BR and Patsy's DNA were found on it, as were droplets of JB's blood.
BR wouldn't have fit in her clothes. He was nearly 4 years older and larger.

[heymom]

The coroner and many forensic specialists who studied the autopsy ALL found evidence of PRIOR sexual abuse. Prior also described as "chronic" In the medical sense "chronic" also means prior and it could have been as recent as a DAY before. It need not have been a long time before and it need not have been on more than ONE other occasion. There should be NO one following this case who is still unsure of this. The evidence was there, and it was found and documented. Not being able to accept it is denial and nothing more.
There was NO cross dressing. The panties on her were already in the basement, wrapped with other gifts for JB's cousin, for whom they had been bought. The parents dressed her in them.
Bubble baths do not cause bleeding, bruising, erosion of the hymen or widening of the vaginal canal or bruising of the labia. ALL were found in JB. The pink nightgown was found stuck on the white blanket that JB was wrapped in. It may have come out of the dryer stuck to the blanket, or she may have been wearing it when the abuse took place- BR and Patsy's DNA were found on it, as were droplets of JB's blood.
BR wouldn't have fit in her clothes. He was nearly 4 years older and larger.

Maybe the prior abuse happened on December 17th, when 4 separate phone calls were made after office hours to the pediatrician.