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  1. #25

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    Unless someone in the Ramsey family comes clean, this case will never be solved, unfortunately. As far as the talking heads, two were on fire yesterday on FOX News: Geraldo Rivera and Mark Fuhrman. Both believe that the Ramseys were involved in JBR's murder. Rivera said he covered the case from day one and he always believed, as he does now, that the parents were involved in some way and were/are lying.

  2. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carol View Post
    Unless someone in the Ramsey family comes clean, this case will never be solved, unfortunately. As far as the talking heads, two were on fire yesterday on FOX News: Geraldo Rivera and Mark Fuhrman. Both believe that the Ramseys were involved in JBR's murder. Rivera said he covered the case from day one and he always believed, as he does now, that the parents were involved in some way and were/are lying.
    What?! I swear, that Geraldo is a FRICKING ROLLER COASTER!

    NOW he's BACK to believing the Ramseys did it? That man, that man....

    I am sorry I missed that show. I think I'll try to find it online. I have always liked Fuhrman, his past "sins" notwithstanding. He wrote about the Ramsey case once--was it in a book? I remember reading it--wherever. Like Thomas, he's a serious investigator who pulls no punches. I call them SuperCops. Kolar comes from the same cloth, as well. They rub people the wrong way because they go up against the worst of the worst--not just criminals, but corrupt lawyers who will do anything to subvert the law and get rich doing so.

    Thanks for letting us know that somewhere yesterday, SOMEONE in TVLand was standing up for the VICTIM--JONBENET RAMSEY.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    John did everything he thought he could do for patsy while she was undergoing her chemo. I am not speaking up for him here. He just didn't have what we would now call "tools" to deal with the horror of stage 3c gynecological cancer. When he was raised, cancer wasn't discussed. When patsy was diagnosed, he found a trial that kept her alive for ten years, a noble achievement. Nedra did the grunt work, which was how everyone would have expected then. Patsy got a nice remission.

    Good will and action by all. Nobody dealt with the psychological damage that ensued, eventually causing the violent demise of JonBenet.
    Oh, you have hit the nail on the proverbial head.

    When I read John describing the effects of the cancer treatments--including full hysterectomy and exploratory surgeries--to Lou Smit in the 1998 DA interviews, I got a glimpse of precisely what you're addressing.

    It's heartbreaking, really, when you consider that one of the worst side effects was the violent death of JonBenet--IMO.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  4. #28

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    Here are some excerpts from the transcript of JR's discussion with Lou Smit and Michael Kane in 1998 about Patsy's cancer treatments. They really were brutal. I can imagine they would be even worse for a former beauty queen.

    Also, in this interview segment John doesn't appear to be as cold a fish as he may appear elsewhere.

    It's a long segment but it's riveting reading for case followers who are interested in an inside look at the Ramsey's relationship, IMO. I bolded the parts most directly related to how the cancer and treatment played out for Patsy, in John's very descriptive relating of it.

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=9946


    19 MIKE KANE: I want to talk about you and
    20 Patsy for a little bit. (INAUDIBLE) many of those.
    21 There have been people that said that at the time
    22 Patsy, that may have been preoccupied with work.
    23 What's your (INAUDIBLE)?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's probably fair.
    25 Normally Patsy never criticized me on, since we've
    0399
    1 been married, just buying this Harley-Davidson
    2 motorcycle. She is --
    3 MIKE KANE: When did you buy it?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: This past winter. Patsy
    5 is very easy going. She never, to me, objected
    6 when I traveled. It was something I had to do. But
    7 it was just okay. See you when you get back. So,
    8 no doubt that I spent a lot of time I work. It was
    9 my life. But she certainly didn't (INAUDIBLE).
    10 MIKE KANE: There is a (INAUDIBLE)?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
    12 MIKE KANE: What kind of a Harley is it?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's a Fat Boy.
    14 MIKE KANE: Is it new?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it's new. A friend of
    16 mine got me interested in it. It kind of became a
    17 winter project for me.
    18 MIKE KANE: And you (INAUDIBLE)?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Last time I think March or
    20 April of this year.
    21 MIKE KANE: Oh, '98?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    23 MIKE KANE: So if she had a complaint
    24 about the time that you were putting in at work,
    25 she would tell you about it?
    0400
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't recall her
    2 ever saying that to me.
    3 MIKE KANE: I think I read that her mom
    4 came out and lived with you. Who would you say
    5 gave you more heat? Your mother or (INAUDIBLE)?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she and her mother are
    7 real close and I think we both had different
    8 roles. She took care of the kids. But I tend to
    9 focus more so I get a lot of reading and talk to
    10 doctors and that kind of logistics side of her
    11 treatment.
    12 I traveled with her back and forth to (INAUDIBLE)
    13 where she was treated frequently. Occasionally it
    14 was hard for her mother to travel. So it was kind
    15 of a team effort. But that's her mother. So, sure,
    16 she got a lot of support and compassion from her.
    17 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE), that would be her
    18 impression, as far as your roles?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    20 MIKE KANE: Were there any parenting duties
    21 that you kind of assumed at that time that you
    22 hadn't been involved in much before?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: There were I guess. (INAUD).
    24 We had to make sure the kids were fed and dressed
    25 for school and those kinds of things. I've kind of
    0401
    1 forgotten now. There were periods of time she was
    2 actually she was actually incapable of doing it.
    3 MIKE KANE: Did you bring in, what's her
    4 name? Susan?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Susan.
    6 MIKE KANE: When was she brought in?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: She was there a long time
    8 during that period. I think a year almost. I think
    9 she either quit her job or coincidentally didn't
    10 have a job. I don't know what it was. But she was
    11 available. And she was there, I would say
    12 literally everyday all day, as I recall, most of
    13 that time.
    14 MIKE KANE: And was her primarily role to
    15 take care of Patsy or to take care of the kids?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the kids mostly. I
    17 think (INAUDIBLE) and I took care of Patsy for the
    18 most part.
    19 MIKE KANE: And how did you hook with her?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Susan? I don't remember. Yeah,
    21 I don't know. Patsy would know.
    22 LOU SMIT: Did she have boyfriend or husband?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think. She was
    24 very overweight; a young girl, but very
    25 overweight. Very nice person that came from a
    0402
    1 wonderful family. (INAUDIBLE) parents.
    2 MIKE KANE: I imagine going through that type
    3 of illness it's very taxing on everybody. How did
    4 Patsy handle it?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy was just unbelievable.
    6 She was going to beat it. I have never seen her as
    7 scared as she was. She thought she was going to
    8 beat it. There was an experimental treatment that
    9 she was on. Gill Gloster, who was a very close
    10 friend, was a doctor.
    11 MIKE KANE: Who was that?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Doctor Gill Gloster, he's a
    13 plastic surgeon who works in Atlanta.
    14 MIKE KANE: Gloster?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: His wife had died of cancer
    16 years before and he was there immediately for us.
    17 He said the mistake we made was we didn't go after
    18 it with both guns drawn. (INAUDIBLE) so we kind of
    19 treated it a little bit and that's not the way to
    20 do it. He recommended this National Cancer
    21 Institute program he was familiar with because his
    22 mother-in-law or his friend's mother-in-law, I
    23 guess it was, had just gone through it.
    24 He got on the phone, got us connected up with that
    25 program. But it was an experimental program. She
    0403
    1 was a guinea pig, basically. They were testing a
    2 new protocol that included some of the things that
    3 we, based on research, looked like it made sense
    4 and should be used, like Taxol, for example.
    5 Until we got her into that program, which wasn't
    6 automatic, because she was young and healthy and
    7 she didn't have any other illnesses. So they were
    8 just treating the cancer, that made her a good
    9 candidate, so she became enrolled in this program.
    10 And it was a scary process. Very scary for her.
    11 I distinctly remember you would go into, whatever
    12 it was, this 30-storey building which looked
    13 wonderful and the doctors and horrible bureaucracy
    14 and try to figure out where we go, who do we see.
    15 It took us three days to break the code and get in
    16 the system. But she was absolutely determined from
    17 that moment.
    18 MIKE KANE: I do know. We all kind of
    19 looked at our wives (INAUDIBLE). When and on what
    20 circumstances was her cancer discovered?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she had. For about six
    22 months, a lot of shoulder pain. She had gone to
    23 some local doctors here in Boulder, and she went
    24 to her doctor. I mean it was very bad shoulder
    25 pain.
    0404
    1 MIKE KANE: Who was her doctor?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't remember. She
    3 obviously would know that. And they did some
    4 studies and then back like in June, her stomach
    5 started to swell.
    6 MIKE KANE: Do you remember what year was
    7 this?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: This was '93, about that. I
    9 think '93; summer of '93. And she couldn't get her
    10 skirts buckled and (INAUDIBLE). Which is kind of
    11 what we thought it was; too many treats. She just
    12 still had this horrible shoulder problem and she
    13 was taking lots of Tylenol and stuff like that.
    14 She was going to West Virginia and we were going
    15 to go up to Charlevoix. And when we went to
    16 Charlevoix, she went to the emergency room a
    17 couple of times a couple of evenings and they
    18 didn't know what was going on. They asked her if
    19 she was pregnant; they didn't have a clue.
    20 And we decided to go back to Boulder, and then we
    21 said let's go to Atlanta and it was Fourth of
    22 July. We went to Atlanta and she immediately went
    23 to the emergency room in Atlanta and in 30 minutes
    24 they knew what it was and had her checked into the
    25 hospital and operated on the next morning.
    0405
    1 MIKE KANE: And what kind of operation was
    2 it?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: They just split her open and
    4 cleaned it all out, as much as they could. That's
    5 kind of the first step. And it was much worse that
    6 they thought. And they tell you, well, it might be
    7 inoperable, which (INAUDIBLE) you're hopeful
    8 that's what it is, which it wasn't. Then they knew
    9 that knew that it was much worse than had hoped.

    10 So we tried to figure out what we could do. And
    11 Gill Gloster was very helpful to us. He was at the
    12 hospital with us. He made some calls to Anderson
    13 Clinic in Houston, I think it was. I mean you
    14 started looking, because you wanted the best
    15 treatment. And what is it? And that's difficult to
    16 figure out.
    17 The oncologist that was there in Atlanta wanted to
    18 treat her. (INAUDIBLE) and with Bill's help we got
    19 her in the program. (INAUDIBLE) year, she'd go
    20 there. And the treatment was basically heavy
    21 dosages, much heavier dosages than you would
    22 normally have given of three drugs.
    23 And she'd go there for a day or two or three, and
    24 then come back to Boulder. Usually then check in
    25 Boulder Hospital for a week, because her immune
    0406
    1 system fell to zero. And that was just kind of the
    2 routine that we went through for 12 months.
    3 MIKE KANE: So once a month she would go
    4 to (INAUDIBLE)?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was once a month,
    6 yeah.
    7 MIKE KANE: And you'd be there for three
    8 days.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: It was a couple overnight.
    10 MIKE KANE: And was this treatment IV
    11 administered?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: She had a port-o-cath that
    13 was permanently installed.
    14 MIKE KANE: And then she'd come back. Would
    15 she normally fly there commercially?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    17 MIKE KANE: Via BWIA I guess?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually, I guess either Duluth
    19 or National from here. I don't know if she flew
    20 BWIA or not. But all three of them were
    21 equidistant.
    22 MIKE KANE: This is Maryland, right?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.(INAUDIBLE).
    24 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE). And you came to
    25 do it once a month for 12 months?
    0407
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

    2 MIKE KANE: How many times did her mom go
    3 with her?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know really, three
    5 or four or five times, somewhere in that range. I
    6 went with her many more times.
    7 MIKE KANE: How many times did you go with
    8 her?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I did sort of in the
    10 beginning every time. But there were times when
    11 she would go by herself. One time I remember I
    12 flew into Duluth and met her at the airport and
    13 flew back. I wasn't with her when she was there,
    14 but I escorted her home. It was a tough time for
    15 her; very tough.
    16 MIKE KANE: You said in the beginning you
    17 went each time?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had to get into the
    19 system and that wasn't easy. What finally made it
    20 easier for me was I said it was just like the
    21 Navy. It was not the doctors that run the place;
    22 it's the clerks. And so we started making friends
    23 with the clerks and then we got into the system.
    24 And they knew which forms we needed to get in.
    25 So it was a very imposing process. Then we'd go
    0408
    1 back and stay at a Holiday Inn and get ready for
    2 the next day.
    3 MIKE KANE: She wouldn't stay overnight
    4 in a hospital?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Not then. She was trying to
    6 get checked in.
    7 MIKE KANE: Oh, I see. Okay. And how long
    8 after her surgery did she get involved in this?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: In at least a month; I think
    10 30 days; as soon as she recovered from the
    11 surgery.
    12 MIKE KANE: And I guess they started her
    13 right away with her. So this protocol was just
    14 something relatively new (INAUDIBLE) and it was
    15 very, very aggressive?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Very aggressive, focus on
    17 ovarian cancer, which she had. The way that his
    18 protocol system works is the National Cancer
    19 Institute does all the testing. Once they conclude
    20 that it's better than what's out there, they'll
    21 release it to these member hospitals that
    22 administer cancer treatments.
    23 So they administer protocols that are generally
    24 under the experimental testing program. This
    25 protocol was only available at the National Cancer
    0409
    1 Institute, because it wasn't backed by any
    2 experimental program.
    3 She goes back now every -- it's being spread out
    4 the longer she goes, but she'll go there forever
    5 (INAUDBILE) research.

    6 MIKE KANE: So we're talking about, since
    7 June of '93, his wife was diagnosed, till? When
    8 was the last treatment?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a 12-month program,
    10 as I recall. But she went in for surgery, but they
    11 just (INAUDIBLE) work. And then --
    12 MIKE KANE: Went back in.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: -- went back in. And then
    14 they gave her one or two more treatments just for
    15 good measure. And that was it.
    16 MIKE KANE: And when was that concluded
    17 around?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It started right around '93,
    19 it would have been in the late summer of '94.
    20 MIKE KANE: And that whole time when she
    21 was undergoing treatment, was it the same routine:
    22 come back to Boulder and check into the Boulder
    23 Hospital?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No, she's come back and
    25 (INAUDIBLE) to come and check the blood and white
    0410
    1 blood count went to zero. So she had no immune
    2 system. And when her temperature up - we had to
    3 take her temperature every half hour or something
    4 like that when her temperature went up to a
    5 certain level, and then come right back down and
    6 we needed instructions, we'd go to the hospital.
    7 MIKE KANE: So this wasn't every time?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was almost every time.
    9 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Right. Almost every
    11 time she had to go to Boulder Hospital. And she
    12 might be there for a week before her immune system
    13 got back to where it could fight off infection.
    14 MIKE KANE: And during those times in
    15 between those treatments, how was it? I mean,
    16 physically, would she get out and about at all?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: A bit. Patsy is a one of
    18 the most positive people I know. And she made the
    19 best of it. She made the best of it with her
    20 children, she made the best of it with me, and
    21 yeah. For a week before she went back in, she
    22 would feeling pretty good. And she would try
    23 (INAUDIBLE) a little life. I mean she just made
    24 the best of it. She would (INAUDIBLE).
    25 MIKE KANE: Lost her hair, I guess, from
    0411
    1 the treatment?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, and around her body.
    3 But for that week or so when she was kind of back
    4 to being normal, life was just fairly normal.
    5 MIKE KANE: So in the late summer then of
    6 '94, her last treatment, was that part of the
    7 protocol, or did they stop the treatment because
    8 it seemed like --
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, the protocol was very
    10 defined: 12 treatments; surgery; and three more
    11 treatments. Because you had people who were on
    12 that same program that didn't have the success
    13 that she did.
    14 The most difficult thing for her, I think was that
    15 when they supposedly opened her up again with all
    16 sorts of biopsies and waiting for the results. If
    17 they found one cell, it didn't work. She was in
    18 trouble.
    19 MIKE KANE: So when that happened, she got
    20 the good news?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    22 MIKE KANE: And then a few more?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: A few more treatments for
    24 good measure and that was part of the protocol;
    25 part of the experiment.
    0412
    1 MIKE KANE: So probably by September of '94
    2 (INAUDIBLE)?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so, yeah.
    4 MIKE KANE: And then from that point on,
    5 there would have been anxiety, I suppose, how did
    6 her health go?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: It was good. She got her hair
    8 back slowly. But it was fine. She really had no
    9 health problems.

    10 MIKE KANE: And how often did she have to
    11 go for follow-ups?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well initially, it was every
    13 month. They did a full CAT-SCAN. It was a full
    14 check and then it became once every two months,
    15 and then once every three months, and then once
    16 every four months. I think it's every six or seven
    17 months now.
    18 MIKE KANE: And was that follow-up done
    19 back at NCI?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    21 MIKE KANE: Did she have any kind of
    22 follow-up here with a local doctor?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so, no. It
    24 was all back there.
    25 MIKE KANE: Prior to this time, did she
    0413
    1 go to the doctor often here?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: She'd go for her annual
    3 checks or whatever they do, women.
    4 MIKE KANE: How did all that change her?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy very much lived for
    6 the moment after that. She enjoyed everyday. She
    7 tried to maximize her time with the children.
    8 Things that she with them or gave to them.
    9 Sometimes I'd complain about something, something
    10 at work, and she's say, "Well, it's better than
    11 cancer." And I'd say, "Yeah, you're right."
    12 She said it just changed her whole -- she was a
    13 very positive person anyway. But I think she tried
    14 to cram as much in everyday as she could.

    15 MIKE KANE: During this whole time, it
    16 sounds like it overlapped with the remodeling of
    17 the house?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It did. I don't remember that.
    19 If it did overlap with when we bought this cottage
    20 up in Michigan, like that summer. But I forget the
    21 date when we bought that. That summer we had just
    22 bought this place and in the winter we were going
    23 to have some remodeling done.
    24 MIKE KANE: This is out in Michigan?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And we were meeting
    0414
    1 the architect, and Patsy just felt horrible. She
    2 had this swollen stomach, I remember that. so that
    3 whole year that overlapped with the cottage
    4 remodeling, because I had to do all that.
    5 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I was trying to remember. I
    7 may be off a year. It may have been a year back. I
    8 think we bought that place in the summer of '91 or
    9 '92. So that would put her cancer and diagnosis
    10 in summer of '92.
    11 MIKE KANE: Summer of '92, okay.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Perhaps. She would know exactly
    13 the day and hour that that's right.
    14 MIKE KANE: So what changed is she began to
    15 more live for the day. Carpe diem. What about
    16 physically?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think she was much more
    18 conscious of what she ate and tried to take some
    19 natural vitamins. I mean, once this treatment is
    20 over, they gave her some counseling on how she
    21 should go on living, and I think part of it was to
    22 not -- she couldn't take estrogen, for example,
    23 which she none anymore. But they didn't want her
    24 to. That was a no, no.
    25 But she basically went through menopause, I guess
    0415
    1 because her body was unable to produce estrogen.
    2 MIKE KANE: So she had a hysterectomy?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. She just became more
    4 conscious of what she ate and tried to be healthy
    5 in terms of that. other than that, she just really
    6 got back to her normal life.
    7 MIKE KANE: How did it change your
    8 relationship?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think we became more
    10 close, not that we weren't anyway. I mean, you go
    11 through a hardship with someone and you see them
    12 more of a person inside than you had before.
    13 MIKE KANE: Like how do you mean?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's just the bonding.
    15 You bond in a way that you don't bond if you
    16 haven't gone through hardship. That's the best way
    17 I can tell you. If it affected our relationship at
    18 all, it was constructive.
    19 MIKE KANE: It made you more close in what
    20 sense?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you just accept each
    22 other more totally for who you are, and respect
    23 each other more fully for who they really are.
    24 MIKE KANE: Can you give me an example of
    25 before and after?
    0416
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't really. I mean
    2 love is an evolving thing. I think you grow more
    3 deeply in love as your relationship continues. And
    4 it changes from what was probably lust in the
    5 beginning to true spiritual love, and that just
    6 contributed to that development.

    7 MIKE KANE: Do you spend more time together?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think we were very
    9 conscious of not letting external things rule our
    10 lives and going out to dinner with people that we
    11 didn't really want to do. Patsy has always
    12 volunteered for everything. And I used to kid her
    13 that she aught to put a sticker on the phone that
    14 says "Just say no." And she was just more
    15 conscious of her time. She wanted to spend all her
    16 time with the kids.
    17 So she did hardly any volunteer work after that
    18 other than at the school and generally with the
    19 kids. That part changed a lot.
    20 MIKE KANE: How did it change you?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was a very sobering
    22 experience. It caused you to think about
    23 (INAUDIBLE) in life. I think it made me less
    24 apprehensive about the future. I always worried
    25 about things: if we going to have enough money; is
    0417
    1 this going to happen. You just kind of back up and
    2 just enjoy today. So I think I became less of a
    3 worrier.
    4 MIKE KANE: I don't want to be indelicate,
    5 but how did it affect your sex life?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Of in terms of that year that
    7 wasn't an option. After, I think because we were
    8 more deeply in love because of this kind of
    9 experience together, it was probably more
    10 meaningful.
    11 MIKE KANE: Would you say it was normal?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, from that standpoint,
    13 certainly.
    14 MIKE KANE: And what does normal mean?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Once every week and a half
    16 or so I supposed, you know that kind of frequency.
    17 MIKE KANE: She didn't have any physical
    18 impairment or anything like that?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: It was hard for her, it hurt,
    20 frankly, to that part of the body. Because she got
    21 cut open and sewn together and cut open and sewn
    22 together again. I don't know that it was 100
    23 percent pleasurable for her for a while.
    24 MIKE KANE: And emotionally?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No issue there at all.
    0418
    1 MIKE KANE: How did it affect her spiritually?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: It has affected her a great
    3 deal. She became much more spiritual. She believed
    4 that she was cured by God, as much as (INAUDIBLE),
    5 if not more than (INAUDIBLE).

    6 MIKE KANE: Was there a specific incident?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Father Rol came over
    8 once and we had a prearranged healing service,
    9 which is part of the Episcopal ritual, and I think
    10 that was earlier on, and Patsy was very moved by
    11 that. And she went in for the CAT-SCAN. They had
    12 said they had to have the CAT-SCAN before they
    13 treated her again to see where things were at.
    14 And after that healing service, all the tumors
    15 were gone in the CAT-SCAN.
    16 MIKE KANE: And that was early on?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. And she believed in
    18 that as much as anything.
    19 MIKE KANE: This was an Episcopal service?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    21 MIKE KANE: I'm raised Roman Catholic, is
    22 that kind of the equivalent of the Sacrament for
    23 The Sick?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Of course we invited friends
    25 and we all prayed and there was an oil; there was
    0419
    1 prayer with people's love around her.
    2 MIKE KANE: She had friends that participated
    3 in this?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    5 MIKE KANE: Let's just back up a little
    6 bit. You said that you had looked at other places
    7 for treatment, in Houston or whatever?
    8 JHR? Well, I was trying to figure what the
    9 best answer was.
    10 MIKE KANE: What was your role in finding --
    11 (INAUDIBLE) about the cure?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I got all the document and
    13 gotten all sorts of reports on Taxol and looking
    14 into it. And I became a mini-expert on ovarian
    15 cancer.
    16 MIKE KANE: What were your sources of
    17 information for that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I got a lot from
    19 Bill. I think there were some places I could call
    20 to get information. I've forgotten now. The
    21 Internet wasn't around. But that kind of
    22 information. A lot or research report, news
    23 articles, whatever I could get my hands on.
    24 I talked to people. It's very confusing if you
    25 really don't know where to go. My mother died of
    0420
    1 cancer and she was treated at the local hospital
    2 in Lansing, Michigan. In retrospect, was that the
    3 best answer? I don't know. But I didn't want to
    4 give up.
    5 The way I looked at Patsy's illness is: okay, we
    6 can do something about this. Beth, I couldn't do
    7 anything. I lost something I loved very much.
    8 There was nothing I could do. Patsy I could do
    9 something. And that's what I tried to do.
    10 In the process of making some of these calls, Bill
    11 got into this National Cancer Institute program
    12 and that (INAUDIBLE) seemed like the right cancer
    13 (INAUDIBLE). That really became the focus.
    14 MIKE KANE: Did she pretty much leave that
    15 aspect of it to you doing the research, or how
    16 much did she take part in that?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: She obviously wanted to know
    18 what was going on, and Gill was very good about
    19 explaining to us what was going on. The doctor
    20 would say this, here's what he meant in plain
    21 English. Yeah, she wasn't involved so much in the
    22 research, as I recall, but she was certainly
    23 involved in the decision.

    24 MIKE KANE: Is it Gill, is it Glou --
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Gloster.
    0421
    1 MIKE KANE: And he's a friend, a business
    2 associate?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Personal, long time personal
    4 friend.
    5 MIKE KANE: Had she had any ancillary effects
    6 of that?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: She lost a lot of feeling in
    8 her legs, her feet. All the nerves were killed.
    9 Chemotherapy is killing the body, as you well
    10 know. And it kills nerve endings. And she still, I
    11 don't think, has a lot of feeling in her feet.
    12 It's slowly coming back. That's probably the main
    13 thing. She still kind of has pain.
    14 MIKE KANE: Any other limitations on her
    15 now?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    17 MIKE KANE: No lasting effects outside of
    18 the neurological?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Perhaps. On her body, she has
    20 a big scar up and down her chest. I mean you
    21 couldn't pay her enough to put a bikini on. But
    22 other than that, no.
    23 MIKE KANE: Any other organs that's affecting
    24 her?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think so.
    0422
    1 MIKE KANE: She goes for regular physicals
    2 now?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: She goes back to (INAUDIBLE)
    4 for a complete CAT-SCAN, physical, blood work.
    5 MIKE KANE: Is there any medication she can't
    6 take because of her kidneys or her liver?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I think her liver. She has to
    8 be careful of her liver because that was damaged
    9 in that process. The only thing I know is the
    10 estrogen and the liver.
    11 MIKE KANE: What did she do to substitute
    12 for this?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Nothing. No.

    14 MIKE KANE: Since then, is she on any
    15 medications for its aftereffects?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: For cancer?
    17 MIKE KANE: Yeah. Or since her cancer? Do
    18 you know if she has to take medications or
    19 anything like that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she's on Prozac now, and
    21 that's because of JonBenet, but no, I don't think
    22 so.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #29
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    Wow, thanks for that KK! It certainly does give another dimension to John, and his relationship with Patsy. OK, I will have to reconsider my statement that he would not protect Patsy if she had been responsible for JonBenet's death.

    He really opened up to the detectives here. Spoke without much censoring by the lawyers too.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  6. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Wow, thanks for that KK! It certainly does give another dimension to John, and his relationship with Patsy. OK, I will have to reconsider my statement that he would not protect Patsy if she had been responsible for JonBenet's death.

    He really opened up to the detectives here. Spoke without much censoring by the lawyers too.
    Here's the thing about this, heymom: I simply don't believe we can know the dynamics of any family not our own. Or even of our own.

    So I try to stick to the facts and what they tell me. I don't try to discern what I think someone can or can't do, especially someone who has presented lies and deceit, almost pathologically, to us.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #31

    Default What's known about Dec. 17, '96

    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Something happened on December 17th. Something important. If only we could get those records!!!

    I am convinced that those phone calls meant something, and Patsy and John did not act at that time to protect JonBenet. Maybe they were in denial - maybe Dr. Whatsit even downplayed whatever happened. But I will go to my grave swearing that if things had been dealt with properly that night, JonBenet would still be alive.
    ~RBBM~
    Absolutely.

    HeyMom, I don’t know if you still read here, but I was researching some posts on FFJ and came across your question about December 17th. I thought I’d reply although a couple years have passed since your question. Since Tricia has wanted this forum to hold a record of facts, I wanted to add a little to what I know about that day. I’m going into some detail, because there is a lot of misinformation on the Internet about this. (gasp!)

    In looking at the 17th I discovered that it was a really great afternoon for JonBenét. She won the talent portion of the All-Stars Christmas Pageant, also called the Little Miss Christmas Pageant.

    Just to clarify some confusion in the transcription, Patsy and JR were in New York with SS and GS on the weekend of the 7th; Nedra and DP were looking after the kids in Boulder. Kolar also references the 17th as the day of the 3 calls to Dr. B’s office.

    There’ve been different dates thrown around on the Internet regarding the date of her award for the Christmas pageant. Schiller actually has the information correct. On December 17, JonBenét entered the All Star Kids Christmas pageant at the Airport Holiday Inn outside Denver. Her parents watched her win several titles, including Little Miss Christmas. When it was all over, John carried all her trophies and costumes to the car. It would be her last pageant. (Schiller, PMPT Kindle, Location 126.)

    From DOI, JR speaking: Her last contest had been in early December and was called the Little Miss Christmas Pageant. I had planned to be there for the talent show, but the program ran ahead of schedule and I missed both the performance and the award. (Kindle edition, Loc. 762-764).

    DOI, again JR speaking: After gathering up what we had asked for, Pam was getting ready to leave when she had a feeling that something important had been missed. She asked to go back to JonBenét’s room, and as she stood in the doorway, her attention was drawn to a seemingly insignificant gold medallion that JonBenét had won in the recent All-Stars Christmas Pageant, her last competition. (Kindle edition, Loc. 753-754)

    From JR’s interviews with Kane and Smit, June 1998. BTW Smit has the incorrect date of the Christmas pageant:
    LOU SMIT: Another thing that I have written
    0052
    1 down here is: on the 21st and 22nd, actually it
    2 was on the 22nd, there was an Amerikids Pageant,
    3 and that's what I have listed in my time line. Do
    4 you remember JonBenet participating in the pageant
    5 just shortly before the Christmas?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, there was one down in
    7 Denver that she participated in. I don't remember
    8 that name. I think it's the one she got this medal
    9 at, this All Stars. But she was in that. Patsy
    10 would remember exactly. It was in December some
    11 time.
    12 LOU SMIT: Did you go to that pageant?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I went to the talent part
    14 which is always what I wanted to support JonBenet
    15 on, was the talent part of it. So I'd actually
    16 gone. Her talent performance was supposed to be at
    17 like 3 o'clock and I got there at three and it was
    18 actually ahead of scheduled because she had
    19 already done it and she had one off the whole
    20 thing for talent. And I walked in and she took
    21 this off her neck and put it on my neck.
    She knew
    22 that was important.
    23 I had always said, you know, you have fun, you
    24 know, don't worry about winning or losing but, you
    25 know, work on your talent. So that was always kind
    0053
    1 of like (INAUDIBLE).
    2 LOU SMIT: Did (INAUDIBLE) go to the
    3 pageants, John?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I would go to some of them,
    5 and I would go to the talent part when she was
    6 doing her performance. But I usually wouldn't go
    7 to the whole thing. That was a mother/daughter
    8 thing they just had. And that, of course, got
    9 blown way out of perspective, I believe. It was,
    10 what we thought was a private setting among
    11 parents and gave JonBenet a chance to develop some
    12 self-confidence and presence, and it was nothing
    13 more than something she and Patsy enjoyed doing
    14 together.
    15 LOU SMIT: Who normally went to her pageants?
    16 Was it just Patsy and JonBenet or --
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well sometimes her mother
    18 would go. Her sisters would go if they were here.
    19 Yeah, just usually Patsy and JonBenet.
    Because it
    20 was usually an all day deal. They'd go in the
    21 morning and come back in the afternoon.

    There was another performance in December which some have confused with the All Stars Christmas Pageant. It was at the SW Plaza Mall in Littleton, Colorado, and was a performance, not a pageant. Whynut has this captured on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPt6AOqpou8.

    From PR’s interview with Haney and DeMuth, June 1998:
    PATSY RAMSEY: Just momentary. I
    16 remember -- remember laying the little red
    17 jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board,
    18 because it had a few spots on it, so I was
    19 thinking when I came back from the lake I was
    20 going to take that to the dry cleaners, and
    21 decided to lay that under there somewhere.
    22 TOM HANEY: Was that -- it wasn't
    23 something you were going to take to the lake?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, it was
    25 something she had worn for a Christmas
    0023
    1 performance. It was a little Christmas thing.
    2 TOM HANEY: When had she worn that?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: She had worn it --
    4 well, she wore it, some of her pageant girls
    5 performed together in a group, some Christmas
    6 songs and things, down in a mall in Denver, she
    7 wore it for that.


    Cont. interview with Patsy, Haney and DeMuth, June 1998:
    THOMAS HANEY: How about John with
    19 JonBenet, did they do any special things
    20 together? Is there anything that she liked dad
    21 to take her to do?
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she loved her
    23 dad to be around all the time. You know, she
    24 liked John to carry her up on his shoulders.
    25 And they liked to bike-ride. And he went to the
    0146
    1 pageants


    There are several unknowns surrounding this day and the pageant. Did BR stay with a friend after school; did Patsy and JR have separate vehicles at the pageant and, if so, return home at the same time; were the calls to Dr. B on behalf of BR or JB? What happened after the pageant to cause a need for panicked calls to Dr. B will go unanswered forever. But if the calls were on behalf of her daughter, I’m convinced Patsy (and Dr. B) had some reason for concealing it from LE, and it suggests Patsy knew at least from the December 17th date, that there were big issues in her home she needed to address. mho

  8. #32
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    Great information...thank you for adding it!
    It's probably too late to get justice for JonBenét. Maybe it always was. But knowing where things went wrong is the first step to not going there again. **-- Alan Prendergast-Dec 21, 2006--**

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  9. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moab View Post
    Great information...thank you for adding it!
    I just read questfortrue's post. It was very interesting. Thank you QFT!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moab View Post
    Great information...thank you for adding it!
    Thank you for the feedback, Moab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I just read questfortrue's post. It was very interesting. Thank you QFT!
    Elle, I so appreciate that you still follow the case.

  11. #35
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    Default Yes, I'm still here

    Hi Questfortrue! Thanks for picking up my earlier post and listing all of that good information about December 17th. A good detective that really wanted to solve this case would have gotten those records from the doctor and found out what happened on December 17th. JonBenet had won another pageant....Was Burke jealous of that? Or did something else happen? 3 frantic phone calls...They meant something, that's for sure.

    I came back to see if anyone had seen the news article from John Ramsey about Burke...I'll wait to see what others have to say.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!



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