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  1. #13
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    Here is another quote, on p. 376:

    "To me, the more pressing question to be resolved centered on the issue of whether children of Burke's age were capable of committing acts of physical violence that included murder. Additionally, having committed such an act, could we expect to see some type of specific pre-offense, or post-offense behavior, which would alert us to the child's propensity to commit this type of crime."
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  2. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickii View Post
    Thank you for your interpretation BOESP. It sounds really interesting.

    I thought, that Mr. Thomas maybe wanted to lure Patsy out of the closet that she at least would distance herself from her son.
    I thought about that view too. He might have wanted her to think he was being accusatory toward Burke hoping she'd blurt out her part in JonBenet's death to keep Burke from being wrongly accused. However, I don't think Thomas would have publicly tried to lure Patsy over a son who was not old enough to be held legally accountable.

    Patsy did a good job of distancing herself from Burke. She flatly, vehemently and without a second thought told one of the investigators (Haney??? I don't remember which one), "Dont go there, Buddy," meaning no-way, no-how would they talk about Burke being involved.

  3. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Please go back and re-read pages 368 and 369 of Kolar's book and then tell me again that he thinks Burke was just a witness. The chapter is titled "SBP and Beyond," and SBP stands for sexual behavior problems (acting out against others while still a child).

    Here is just one quote from that chapter, on p. 372:

    "In my review of all of the official interviews recorded with this boy, not once had he expressed concern about the welfare of his sister, nor had he ever asked investigators how their search for her killer was progressing."
    heymom, I no longer have my copy. I do remember, somewhat, reading that section and thinking whether the inappropriate SBPs applied to just Burke, just JonBenet, or both children. There are several public statements that make me think JonBenet was well advanced in the flirty ways of being coy and cute for the opposite sex, particularly relevant to me are the things seen in the pageant arena and her private training lessons.

    I'm at a toss-up on whether one or both of those children had problems.

    Regardless, Burke having SBPs, if he did back then, doesn't mean he was the one who killed JonBenet. He could have, but maybe not. I just don't have enough information to come to that conclusion yet. I think the poor kid was probably treated just like JonBenet was treated before JonBenet came along and was old enough to be Patsy's toy.

    Maybe Patsy caught JonBenet in Burke's bedroom doing whatever and then Patsy became enraged. Who knows? I sure don't. I do know that the legal system in Colorado, and likely many other states, is so corrupt as to let that baby's killer go free without so much as a public indictment and plea bargain. That was the least that DA's office could have done.

  4. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Here is another quote, on p. 376:

    "To me, the more pressing question to be resolved centered on the issue of whether children of Burke's age were capable of committing acts of physical violence that included murder. Additionally, having committed such an act, could we expect to see some type of specific pre-offense, or post-offense behavior, which would alert us to the child's propensity to commit this type of crime."
    If Burke's medical records were sealed and, apparently, John and Patsy refused to discuss Burke (their right under the Colorado law???) how could Chief Kolar come to the conclusion that Burke murdered JonBenet based on SBPs? Wouldn't that fall under medical records, which were given the "island of privacy."

    I just am not comfortable forming an opinion on Burke. I still think Patsy, in a rage, is the most likely candidate. I'm not saying Burke and JonBenet didn't engage in some sort of pre-adolescent sexual activity, but something is missing for me to jump from that to murder.

    I think Patsy might have caught them and became enraged and wanted to get her baby clean (so to speak) and just lost it. I could be wrong.

  5. #17
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    BOESP,

    I take it SBP mean Sexual Behaviour problems. I personally thought that from what I had read about Burke's behaviour, his symptoms sounded more like Tourette's Syndrome to me (?). I read somewhere Burke was known to make a lot of beeping sounds plus he had an odd personality which goes along with this disease. Burke appears to be living a normal life from what I've gathered. If this was the case, why on earth did the Ramseys not pay more attention to having JonBenét guarded with a Nanny? She was only six years old! This little girl was not protected at all! One would have thought after Burke hit her with a golf club, John and Patsy would have given her special treatment.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
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  6. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    BOESP,

    I take it SBP mean Sexual Behaviour problems. I personally thought that from what I had read about Burke's behaviour, his symptoms sounded more like Tourette's Syndrome to me (?). I read somewhere Burke was known to make a lot of beeping sounds plus he had an odd personality which goes along with this disease. Burke appears to be living a normal life from what I've gathered. If this was the case, why on earth did the Ramseys not pay more attention to having JonBenét guarded with a Nanny? She was only six years old! This little girl was not protected at all! One would have thought after Burke hit her with a golf club, John and Patsy would have given her special treatment.
    You just have to read Chief Kolar's book, Elle. He had access to all of the case files and all of the evidence. I don't believe that John and Patsy knew what was going on until perhaps Dec. 17th, when Patsy made several calls to the pediatrician after office hours. I don't think they knew what to do about it, may have been in shock or denial, or were trying to figure out the best course of action. Just 8 days later, she was dead.

    There is no mistaking what Chief Kolar believes happened. He's very clear in his book. He lays it out carefully and clearly and the reader can follow the last part of the trail to its end.

    I'm not going to argue about it any more. I know it's hard to understand this, and difficult to consider. In Kolar's book he describes the research that shows this kind of thing can end up being a one-off, that never happens again, with treatment that is. People who say, "Well, if it was him, why hasn't he done anything else," need to research. It's strange but it seems that people can be treated for this and not continue to offend.

    Everyone has their pet theory. I considered Thomas' opinion the most knowledgeable, but it never made sense to me that Patsy could have struck JonBenet against anything hard enough to crack her skull nearly in half. So I was interested to hear what Chief Kolar had to say. When he reached the conclusion he did, I was stunned in a way, but not surprised, if you see what I mean. For me, as I considered what he was writing, this made the most sense. And the reason he didn't state it flat-out is that the person is still alive and he could be sued for libel and slander. But his conclusions are unmistakable. Absolutely 100% clear.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  7. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    BOESP,

    I take it SBP mean Sexual Behaviour problems. I personally thought that from what I had read about Burke's behaviour, his symptoms sounded more like Tourette's Syndrome to me (?). I read somewhere Burke was known to make a lot of beeping sounds plus he had an odd personality which goes along with this disease. Burke appears to be living a normal life from what I've gathered. If this was the case, why on earth did the Ramseys not pay more attention to having JonBenét guarded with a Nanny? She was only six years old! This little girl was not protected at all! One would have thought after Burke hit her with a golf club, John and Patsy would have given her special treatment.
    Elle_1, that's interesting about the Tourette's. I don't know much about it or whether Burke had it. Chief Kolar writes about "SBP" in his book but I never quite concluded which child had the problem or whether both did.

  8. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Elle_1, that's interesting about the Tourette's. I don't know much about it or whether Burke had it. Chief Kolar writes about "SBP" in his book but I never quite concluded which child had the problem or whether both did.
    Thank you for both replies BOESP!

    I know about Tourettes because my young nephew suffered from them. He beeped a lot. I haven't seen him for many years now but apparently he's doing very well. I think JonBenét and her young friend teased the hell out of Burke when they were together.

    About Chief Kolar's book. I already have it, But unfortunately never finished it due to a badly sprained thumb. I just haven't got back on track. Being a Senior Senior has its drawbacks. I find that I do all my reading on this computer and I'm not keen on holding a heavy book in my hands. Bought a Kobo for my husband. He loves it, but I don't want one! :(

    I also have to say I'm a bit stunned on learning about the sexual issues of younger children.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Elle_1, that's interesting about the Tourette's. I don't know much about it or whether Burke had it. Chief Kolar writes about "SBP" in his book but I never quite concluded which child had the problem or whether both did.
    With all due respect, BOESP, it was absolutely crystal clear which child Chief Kolar was discussing, and it wasn't JonBenet. All I can say is that you must have stopped reading the book at a different chapter than I did.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  10. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    With all due respect, BOESP, it was absolutely crystal clear which child Chief Kolar was discussing, and it wasn't JonBenet. All I can say is that you must have stopped reading the book at a different chapter than I did.
    Respectfully, I read the entire book. Imo, the book was not "crystal clear" on several issues.

    I also read elsewhere that JonBenet was flirty and way too sexualized in some of her behaviors. I understood that one of Patsy's friends described the situation as the "Mega JonBenet thing." I also understood that both Ramsey children had incontinence problems with their bladders and colons.

    So, no, it isn't clear to me that JonBenet was killed by her brother during sexual contact if that's what you are saying.

  11. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Thank you for both replies BOESP!

    I know about Tourettes because my young nephew suffered from them. He beeped a lot. I haven't seen him for many years now but apparently he's doing very well. I think JonBenét and her young friend teased the hell out of Burke when they were together.

    About Chief Kolar's book. I already have it, But unfortunately never finished it due to a badly sprained thumb. I just haven't got back on track. Being a Senior Senior has its drawbacks. I find that I do all my reading on this computer and I'm not keen on holding a heavy book in my hands. Bought a Kobo for my husband. He loves it, but I don't want one! :(

    I also have to say I'm a bit stunned on learning about the sexual issues of younger children.
    Elle, thanks for the reply. I am one of the ones who doesn't read into the "island of privacy" on the children's medical records as meaning it had to only be because one or both were exhibiting inappropriate sexual behaviors. It could mean that but it could also be many other things as well.

    Interesting thought about JonBenet and one of her friends perhaps antagonizing Burke over some sort of issue, especially something Burke could not have changed. Children can be cruel.

    I agree that the adults were trying to hide something about the night JonBenet was killed but I think it most likely Patsy killed JonBenet in a fit of rage. Now who Patsy was enraged at is the $118,000 question in my mind.

  12. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Respectfully, I read the entire book. Imo, the book was not "crystal clear" on several issues.

    I also read elsewhere that JonBenet was flirty and way too sexualized in some of her behaviors. I understood that one of Patsy's friends described the situation as the "Mega JonBenet thing." I also understood that both Ramsey children had incontinence problems with their bladders and colons.

    So, no, it isn't clear to me that JonBenet was killed by her brother during sexual contact if that's what you are saying.
    Children who have been sexually abused display inappropriate behavior, which can be interpreted as "flirty," but which is, as you say, "too sexualized," because they have been molested. The molester will frequently tell them lies like, "You know you like this too, so stop crying," or, "This feels good and you know it." The molester also rewards them with praise, etc. for acting as he/she wants them to, i.e. flirting, acting sexual.

    I don't know, maybe both of the children had been molested by some other family member, and Burke acted out for some other reason. It's possible, I suppose. He certainly had late incontinence. Sometimes that can be hereditary, however. In the book, Chief Kolar mentions reports that Burke had smeared feces (his own?) on a bathroom wall when Patsy was ill with cancer. I don't know how old he would have been, but certainly older than the age when kids decide to paint the wall with their excrement. And there were also feces in JonBenet's room, on a box of candy, and in some pajamas that were much too large for her. So, there were definitely problems that were out of the ordinary for children the age of Burke and JonBenet.

    But no matter how long we argue about it, sadly, we will never know what happened in the Ramsey house that night.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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