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  1. #73

    Default Interview with the Ramseys' lawyer re pending lawsuit by Burke

    Here is an interview with the Ramseys’ attorney regarding the pending defamation suit on behalf of Burke. He has a different spin on the golf club incident. I have no idea where the truth lies.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/burke-ram...183648611.html

  2. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel XVI View Post
    No to your first question. What does he say regarding the web, please, and how does it stand up in light of the considerations discussed in the link i provided that answers the web consideration pro and con? For example, a spider can re-spin a broken web in less than twelve hours. Can it be definitely established when this web was observed by the police?

    Yes to the second. Innocent people have been convicted by juries let alone indicted by grand juries where the threshold is much less, only dealing with probable cause.
    The spider web(s) would not have been reconstructed in the dead of winter. I have Kolar's book but he doesn't include an index, unfortunately. However, imagining that an intruder came in through that window and then a spider re-spun the webs (it was not a simple one-strand thing) in less than 12 hours on December 26 when the temperatures were about 9 degrees F is just plain silly.

    Kolar's book deals with more important aspects of the case.

    The grand jury took their job seriously and looked at 30,000 + pieces of evidence, interviewed 30 witnesses, and took 13 months to do their job, handing Alex Hunter's office at least 2 indictments against the parents. Don't mock our justice system, it is the best and fairest in the world. Not perfect as this case clearly shows, but still, the best and fairest.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  3. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    The spider web(s) would not have been reconstructed in the dead of winter. I have Kolar's book but he doesn't include an index, unfortunately. However, imagining that an intruder came in through that window and then a spider re-spun the webs (it was not a simple one-strand thing) in less than 12 hours on December 26 when the temperatures were about 9 degrees F is just plain silly.

    Kolar's book deals with more important aspects of the case.

    The grand jury took their job seriously and looked at 30,000 + pieces of evidence, interviewed 30 witnesses, and took 13 months to do their job, handing Alex Hunter's office at least 2 indictments against the parents. Don't mock our justice system, it is the best and fairest in the world. Not perfect as this case clearly shows, but still, the best and fairest.
    From the link I provided, conflicting accounts; the site attempts to be objective and provides both sides of controversial aspects of the case:

    Evidence the Web Was Not Attached to the Grate

    "Wickman had an argument at the Ramsey house with Detective Greg Idler, who had carefully lifted the metal grate above the broken window and found that the spiderweb between the window well bricks and the grate wasn't necessarily attached. Wickman challenged Idler's findings" (Thomas 2000a:108, citation from Internet poster Margoo.).

    Net Assessment

    Whether the observed web was attached "matters" only if the web was observed early enough that it could not have been spun during the morning of December 26.

    Regardless of when the web was observed, Detectives Everett and Wickman disagree with Detective Idler about whether the web was attached to the grate; absent a photograph, this conflicting eyewitness testimony would appear to be unresolvable.

    Was a Police Photograph Taken of the Web?

    Yes.

    "On April 2, Detective Michael Everett of the Boulder PD called entomologist Dr. Brent Opell of the Virginia State University Department of Biology, who was known as Mr. Spider Man. Opell told the police that there are two general types of spiderwebs. The first, which are called cob or funnel webs, once established are constantly reworked and added to by the spider. The second, manufactured by orb-weaving spiders, is regularly replaced by the spiders and can be completed at any hour of the day, in less than twelve hours. The police also learned that if the grate covering the window well had simply been lifted and the web damaged, the type of web would be hard to identify, but if something the size of a man had passed through the web, it would have been destroyed" (Schiller 1999a:344, citation from Internet poster Margoo.).

    "Everett sent Dr. Opell an enlarged photo of the type of web in question. The entomologist said it appeared to be of the funnel type" (Schiller 1999a:344, citation from Internet poster Margoo.).
    Six months later, on October 25, Everett traveled to Vancouver Island and met with another expert, Dr. Robert Bennett of the British Columbia Ministry of Forests. The detective had with him a newly enlarged and enhanced photograph of a (sic) the strands of the web that had covered part of the window grate. Bennett confirmed that it was a funnel web" (Schiller 1999a:344, citation from Internet poster Margoo.).

    "This grate was photographed and collected for evidence...In May, the photos were submitted to Brent Opell, Professor of Biology at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksbury,sic Virginia" (Sauers 1998).

    Thus, Schiller and Sauers concur Opell was given a police photograph (although they disagree on the month this occurred) and Schiller further adds that a blown-up version was given to Bennett; but note that Schiller alludes to Opell being given photos "of the type of web in question" which may or may not have been of the original web.

    No.

    "The original web had never been photographed or committed to a report, a huge error that would become extraordinarily controversial in months to come" (Thomas 2000a:108, citation from Internet poster Margoo.).

    "In December both Sergeant Wickman and Detective Mike Everett had seen at least three strands of a spiderweb reaching from the brick window well upward to the covering grate. No one had photographed it" (Thomas 2000a:219, citation from Internet poster Margoo.).

    ***

    It would seem that the cobweb aspect of this case is far from certain.

    As to you second point, again a grand jury only determines if there is probable cause, a less stringent requirement than the beyond a reasonable doubt required by a jury for a conviction on a charge. Again, juries are composed of humans and humans err. How is noting that “mocking” our criminal justice system? The chance, however slight such is or isn’t, of being falsely convicted of a crime is the price we all must pay to avoid the far worse alternative of anarchy.

    The distinct attorney at the time (Alex Hunter) declined to sign the true bills because he strongly believed he lacked sufficient evidence to obtain a conviction by meeting the beyond a reasonable doubt requirement. He knew that if a jury acquitted he could not retry the case even if compelling evidence was later discovered against the Ramseys. Even some members of the police department reluctantly agreed with him on this point.

    By the way, I researched from various reviews the book by James Kolar you mentioned. It’s not surprising the book doesn’t have an index. It appears to be self published and is replete with spelling and other errors. It also appears to be basically a rehash of Steve Thomas’s book, which I have read, and contains little if any additional information. Mr. Kolar spent little time on the case before leaving (for whatever reason) after having been hired by the Boulder DA’s office.

  4. #76

    Default Oh, what a tangled web...

    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    The spider web(s) would not have been reconstructed in the dead of winter. I have Kolar's book but he doesn't include an index, unfortunately. However, imagining that an intruder came in through that window and then a spider re-spun the webs (it was not a simple one-strand thing) in less than 12 hours on December 26 when the temperatures were about 9 degrees F is just plain silly.

    Kolar's book deals with more important aspects of the case.

    The grand jury took their job seriously and looked at 30,000 + pieces of evidence, interviewed 30 witnesses, and took 13 months to do their job, handing Alex Hunter's office at least 2 indictments against the parents. Don't mock our justice system, it is the best and fairest in the world. Not perfect as this case clearly shows, but still, the best and fairest.
    P.S. If it is “just plain silly” to think that a spider re-spun the web in the dead of winter, then why is it not just plain silly that it spun it in the first place in the dead of winter?

  5. #77

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    It’s too bad we couldn’t have the Case of audience hear Chero’s linguistic analysis – more in depth than anything I’ve read anywhere. But I think some of the nuance is difficult to communicate via the electronic media.

    If some of the important elements of the case, which were captured in Kolar’s Foreign Faction, were not included in Case of, undoubtedly and imo, it is to lower the threshold for liability. However, it also seemed as though the program was designed for an average viewer who might not have been as familiar with the case. By including the statement analyst expert - Stan Burke – to provide his interpretation of how the RN seeks to hard sell the idea of a kidnapping and by allowing the 911 operator to give her impressions that the tone of Patsy changed completely after she attempted to hang up, a viewer should have been able to understand the amount of deception which launched the ‘Foreign Faction’ kidnapping.

    We now witness the efforts of the R attorney to diminish the program with threats, but the barn door was thrown open with Kolar’s book several years ago. What conclusions the uninformed public will take away from Case of, remains to be seen. However, I can’t help but wonder if the participants in the program weren’t truly anticipating the reaction from the R legal representative. The response of the CBS attorneys was to the effect – ok, we’ll see you in court. If they depose BR and JR I’m wondering if those medical records might be finally subpoenaed? Well, obviously the 'ride' is not quite over.

    (Oh, btw, there are a few on the sidelines cheering that the Intruder theory has been laid to rest. http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/09/2...murder-series/ - Former Gov. Owens: CBS Ramsey Series ‘Dispelled Theory Of An Outside Intruder’)

  6. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel XVI View Post
    P.S. If it is “just plain silly” to think that a spider re-spun the web in the dead of winter, then why is it not just plain silly that it spun it in the first place in the dead of winter?
    That web was not spun recently. It had been there for a long time. I'm tired of answering the same old questions.

    THERE WAS NO INTRUDER!

    You can't read reviews of a book and pretend that you know what it contains. Chief Kolar's book is NOTHING LIKE Steve Thomas' book. Thomas did the best he could at the time with the case materials he saw; Kolar saw it ALL and reached different conclusions. You want to denigrate him for self-publishing? Go ahead. I admire him because he wanted the public to know what he saw in the case. Between his book and the Grand Jury indictments, I no longer have doubts about how JonBenet died and what happened afterward.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  7. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    That web was not spun recently. It had been there for a long time. I'm tired of answering the same old questions.

    THERE WAS NO INTRUDER!

    You can't read reviews of a book and pretend that you know what it contains. Chief Kolar's book is NOTHING LIKE Steve Thomas' book. Thomas did the best he could at the time with the case materials he saw; Kolar saw it ALL and reached different conclusions. You want to denigrate him for self-publishing? Go ahead. I admire him because he wanted the public to know what he saw in the case. Between his book and the Grand Jury indictments, I no longer have doubts about how JonBenet died and what happened afterward.
    Agree...plus, Thomas and Kolar both wrote their books with different intents. Thomas was showing the inner workings (or non-workings) of the political side of the case. Kolar was doing so much more on so many levels especially with the evidence. It is moot to try and compare the two, as we all know.
    It's probably too late to get justice for JonBenét. Maybe it always was. But knowing where things went wrong is the first step to not going there again. **-- Alan Prendergast-Dec 21, 2006--**

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  8. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel XVI View Post
    Here is an interview with the Ramseys’ attorney regarding the pending defamation suit on behalf of Burke. He has a different spin on the golf club incident. I have no idea where the truth lies.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/burke-ram...183648611.html

    Thank you for this; it's the first time I've seen it. No doubt Wood can hardly wait to sue, sue, sue. Hahaha. He neglected to mention that the grand jury indicted Patsy and John. And as far as I'm concerned, Alex Hunter is just as guilty as the Ramseys.

    I have no idea where the truth lies either. It is all just too crazy. I had wondered about dna on the panties matching dna on the pjs. Seems like that was said on Dr. Phil, and now I'm thinking that is just something someone made it to confuse things.

    Anyway, the CBS documentary didn't convince me that Burke did it. Burke convinced me he did it on the Dr. Phil show.
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  9. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    That web was not spun recently. It had been there for a long time. I'm tired of answering the same old questions.

    THERE WAS NO INTRUDER!

    You can't read reviews of a book and pretend that you know what it contains. Chief Kolar's book is NOTHING LIKE Steve Thomas' book. Thomas did the best he could at the time with the case materials he saw; Kolar saw it ALL and reached different conclusions. You want to denigrate him for self-publishing? Go ahead. I admire him because he wanted the public to know what he saw in the case. Between his book and the Grand Jury indictments, I no longer have doubts about how JonBenet died and what happened afterward.
    You apparently know more about the habits and capabilities of whatever variety of spider spun this alleged web than not only me but the expert cited in the material I linked to that you chose simply to ignore with: “Case closed, no intruder!” Again:

    "The original web had never been photographed or committed to a report, a huge error that would become extraordinarily controversial in months to come" (Thomas 2000a:108, citation from Internet poster Margoo.).

    "In December both Sergeant Wickman and Detective Mike Everett had seen at least three strands of a spiderweb reaching from the brick window well upward to the covering grate. No one had photographed it" (Thomas 2000a:219, citation from Internet poster Margoo.).]"

    ***


    It’s been years since I’ve read Mr. Thomas’s* book, but I assume the above citations from his book are accurate, a concession from an investigator who strenuously agrees with you. Please note, that not only does Mr. Thomas state (again, if the citation is accurate) that no photograph was taken of this original web, but that perhaps as little as “three strands” were observed; perhaps the spider was occupied in the web’s reconstruction when first noticed by the police. For you to exclude the possibility of an intruder through the basement window (which wasn’t alarmed even if the alarm had been activated) based on this dubious and flimsy piece of evidence only tells me that all that is “closed” in this case is your mind, one entirely prejudiced against the Ramseys.

    *BTW, in the possessive case only (with a very few exceptions (by convention) such as "Jesus") plural words ending in an "s" do not take another “s” after the apostrophe: thus, “Thomas’s” and not “Thomas.’” “Thomas” is singular.
    Last edited by Daniel XVI; September 24, 2016, 1:17 pm at Sat Sep 24 13:17:07 UTC 2016.

  10. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Thank you for this; it's the first time I've seen it. No doubt Wood can hardly wait to sue, sue, sue. Hahaha. He neglected to mention that the grand jury indicted Patsy and John. And as far as I'm concerned, Alex Hunter is just as guilty as the Ramseys.

    I have no idea where the truth lies either. It is all just too crazy. I had wondered about dna on the panties matching dna on the pjs. Seems like that was said on Dr. Phil, and now I'm thinking that is just something someone made it to confuse things.

    Anyway, the CBS documentary didn't convince me that Burke did it. Burke convinced me he did it on the Dr. Phil show.
    Just something made up? That’s seems a serious charge to level against former Boulder DA Mary Lacy. For you to assert such, I assume you have some evidence.

    Nevertheless, perhaps there is some explanation for it besides proving the presence of a male intruder that fateful night. It throws something (but not entirely) of a monkey wrench in my theory as well as I strongly agree that the ransom note was written by a woman. I suppose it is possible that there were two intruders, one male and one female; or, in the event of such a sinister collaboration, more likely a woman wrote the note off site and the male brought it with him to leave behind after dispatching the girl. I’ve never considered this before, a murderer and an accomplice. If so, I rather suspect that woman was the driving force who left the actual dirty work to her man.

  11. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by questfortrue View Post
    It’s too bad we couldn’t have the Case of audience hear Chero’s linguistic analysis – more in depth than anything I’ve read anywhere. But I think some of the nuance is difficult to communicate via the electronic media.

    If some of the important elements of the case, which were captured in Kolar’s Foreign Faction, were not included in Case of, undoubtedly and imo, it is to lower the threshold for liability. However, it also seemed as though the program was designed for an average viewer who might not have been as familiar with the case. By including the statement analyst expert - Stan Burke – to provide his interpretation of how the RN seeks to hard sell the idea of a kidnapping and by allowing the 911 operator to give her impressions that the tone of Patsy changed completely after she attempted to hang up, a viewer should have been able to understand the amount of deception which launched the ‘Foreign Faction’ kidnapping.

    We now witness the efforts of the R attorney to diminish the program with threats, but the barn door was thrown open with Kolar’s book several years ago. What conclusions the uninformed public will take away from Case of, remains to be seen. However, I can’t help but wonder if the participants in the program weren’t truly anticipating the reaction from the R legal representative. The response of the CBS attorneys was to the effect – ok, we’ll see you in court. If they depose BR and JR I’m wondering if those medical records might be finally subpoenaed? Well, obviously the 'ride' is not quite over.

    (Oh, btw, there are a few on the sidelines cheering that the Intruder theory has been laid to rest. http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/09/2...murder-series/ - Former Gov. Owens: CBS Ramsey Series ‘Dispelled Theory Of An Outside Intruder’)
    When I was last here in 2006, I pointed out a flaw in Cherokee’s analysis. I believe she had (at least then) stated that towards the first part of the note the writer made deliberate English errors to leave the impression that he or she was foreign (to English) and/or less well educated than he or she was in fact. Then Chero observed that the mistakes ceased toward the ending of the note as the writer (Patsy, of course, from Chero's POV) reverted to habit in haste and under pressure. However, she had failed to note that three times towards the end of the note the writer directly addresses JR as “John” as in: “Don’t try to grow a brain John [sic],” omitting the necessary comma each time before “John.” The fact that this was the case in all there instances tells me that this was not a singular case of a hasty mistake, the sort I or anyone can make. (I note to my chagrin that there is at least one in my first note on this thread that is too late to edit: “White’s” for “Whites’.”)

    Therefore, in accordance with Chero’s much admired linguistic analysis of the ransom note, we have a social butterfly capable of fashioning on an impromptu basis such an elaborate strangulation device and knot and a journalism major who seemed unaware that direct address requires a comma. Curious. People here make it very difficult to allow for even the possibility for PR to have been innocent.

    BTW, someone here then named Delmar England typed a copy of the ransom note and inserted the missing commas in the three instances of direct address even though they don’t appear in the original handwritten note. He later explained that he didn’t have a copy of the handwritten note in front of him when he typed it. Presumably, he copied it from a transcription by someone erudite who had inserted the commas out of habit, unconsciously correcting another’s errors. That is the power of habit.
    Last edited by Daniel XVI; September 24, 2016, 1:43 pm at Sat Sep 24 13:43:17 UTC 2016.

  12. #84
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    You can go on and on ad nauseum about punctuation mistakes in the ransom novel and spiderwebs in the window well. You will be talking to yourself at this point.

    After following this case since it started, the current information satisfies me fairly well, both as to what happened and why it was never prosecuted. It's not a happy conclusion, since we will never have an actual prosecution of any of the responsible parties, but it ties up a lot of loose ends that we have wondered about and struggled to understand from the beginning.

    There is a lot of evidence that we will never see, unfortunately. Chief Kolar saw it all, every last bit, and he came to the same conclusion that the CBS show did, although I do wonder if he thought there was intent. Certainly the GJ believed there was, because they charged both John and Patsy with obstruction and covering up a 1st degree murder, not an accidental homicide.

    So go on yapping about spiders and unknown women who wrote a 3-page ransom note on Patsy's pad with Patsy's pen in Patsy's handwriting with Patsy's phraseology. I no longer have time for this nonsense.

    RIP JonBenet, you deserved better than this.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!



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