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  1. #97
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
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    In a World With Too Much Crime
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel XVI View Post
    Thank you. How does Chief Kolar explain this in his book since he believes the family's guilty? Does he question the test results in accordance with the article I linked to?
    The articles of clothing were worn one on top of the other. Why does DNA transfer seem so impossible to you?

    That was a rhetorical question. This is not a discussion.
    It's probably too late to get justice for JonBenét. Maybe it always was. But knowing where things went wrong is the first step to not going there again. **-- Alan Prendergast-Dec 21, 2006--**

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  2. #98

    Default

    From the link I provided from the New York Post (Reply #93):

    "But when current Boulder DA Stan Garnett was elected in 2009 and took over the case, [Gordon] Coombes [who worked as an investigator in the Boulder County district attorney’s office] says he became aware of a mishandling of the DNA testing, that 'They had deviated and dropped down to four markers as opposed to the standard [13]' usually used in forensic analysis."

    Just rhetorically asking for the benefit of anyone who might read this, one wonders why Mr. Coombes apparently doesn’t consider that the trace DNA in question had been transferred from one article of clothing to the other. He apparently appeals to a substandard DNA testing technique.

  3. #99
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    Somewhere over the rainbow
    Posts
    3,481

    Default There was no intruder.

    There was no intruder.

    Patsy wrote the ransom letter.

    Everything else is a waste of time.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  4. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    There was no intruder.

    Patsy wrote the ransom letter.

    Everything else is a waste of time.
    Then what’s the purpose of this forum or at least your participation in it?

    There were no outside witnesses to this crime.

    There is no known motive, merely speculation of such. One might equally speculate on a motive by an intruder.

    There is no confession.

    Illegal entry cannot be definitively excluded.

    There is unexplained, unknown same male DNA evidence on two separate articles of the victim’s clothing.

    Handwriting analysis is among the least exact of sciences. Even so, said experts state that Patsy cannot be excluded from having written the note which is a far stretch from concluding that she did.

    The paper on which the note was written was taken from the middle of Patsy’s pad and not from the top as one might expect no matter who wrote the note if it were written then and there. (One question I have had all along and which I have never been able to get an answer to is whether the police checked the first remaining sheet of the pad after the last one of the note to see if there might be indentations on it. If not, then that would support my theory that the sheets were removed beforehand. If so, then that would seriously compromise it and weaken my belief in the intruder theory. I just wrote "Listen carefully!" on a pad and the indentation of such is clearly visible on the sheet below it.)

    Assuming the viewership statistics on this forum are correct, it has the highest lurker to member ratio I’ve ever seen. It is not uncommon to have 200 or more viewers with only one or two members online. Maybe some of the former don’t view the above considerations to be a waste of time.
    Last edited by Daniel XVI; September 27, 2016, 12:06 pm at Tue Sep 27 12:06:30 UTC 2016.

  5. #101

    Default

    (snipped)
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel XVI View Post
    The paper on which the note was written was taken from the middle of Patsy’s pad and not from the top as one might expect no matter who wrote the note if it were written then and there. (One question I have had all along and which I have never been able to get an answer to is whether the police checked the first remaining sheet of the pad after the last one of the note to see if there might be indentations on it. If not, then that would support my theory that the sheets were removed beforehand. If so, then that would seriously compromise it and weaken my belief in the intruder theory. I just wrote "Listen carefully!" on a pad and the indentation of such is clearly visible on the sheet below it.)

    Assuming the viewership statistics on this forum are correct, it has the highest lurker to member ratio I’ve ever seen. It is not uncommon to have 200 or more viewers with only one or two members online. Maybe some of the former don’t view the above considerations to be a waste of time.
    Maybe 199 simply view it as an exercise in futility to point out that felt-tipped pens don't leave an indentation in the papers below it like a ball-point pen.
    .
    All views expressed in my posts are my opinion and are protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as “freedom of speech”.

  6. #102

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel XVI View Post
    Then what’s the purpose of this forum or at least your participation in it?

    There were no outside witnesses to this crime.

    There is no known motive, merely speculation of such. One might equally speculate on a motive by an intruder.

    There is no confession.

    Illegal entry cannot be definitively excluded.

    There is unexplained, unknown same male DNA evidence on two separate articles of the victim’s clothing.

    Handwriting analysis is among the least exact of sciences. Even so, said experts state that Patsy cannot be excluded from having written the note which is a far stretch from concluding that she did.

    The paper on which the note was written was taken from the middle of Patsy’s pad and not from the top as one might expect no matter who wrote the note if it were written then and there. (One question I have had all along and which I have never been able to get an answer to is whether the police checked the first remaining sheet of the pad after the last one of the note to see if there might be indentations on it. If not, then that would support my theory that the sheets were removed beforehand. If so, then that would seriously compromise it and weaken my belief in the intruder theory. I just wrote "Listen carefully!" on a pad and the indentation of such is clearly visible on the sheet below it.)

    Assuming the viewership statistics on this forum are correct, it has the highest lurker to member ratio I’ve ever seen. It is not uncommon to have 200 or more viewers with only one or two members online. Maybe some of the former don’t view the above considerations to be a waste of time.
    Your point about what motive the ransom note writer might have in taking paper from the middle of the pad is interesting. The first four pages of Patsy's pad, the one the ransom note writer used, were covered in lists and doodles (according to Steve Thomas) so that might provide a sufficient reason right there. If Patsy wrote the note, she might have wanted to conceal the provenance of the paper, but (again according to Thomas), she volunteered that it looked like the ransom note came from one of their pads when she was shown a Xeroxed copy of the note. Detectives saw no resemblance between the paper of the pads and the Xerox so they found that comment noteworthy.

    Thomas says that they suspected that there was another practice note before the practice note, judging by bleed-through. The police probably checked all the pages, but a lack of bleed-through after the last page of the ransom note wouldn't necessarily point to an intruder. Patsy could have removed the pages just before she started writing.

  7. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    (snipped)Maybe 199 simply view it as an exercise in futility to point out that felt-tipped pens don't leave an indentation in the papers below it like a ball-point pen.
    Ah! I wasn’t aware of that. That consideration, unfortunately, means my theory of the crime (an intruder framing the Ramseys) cannot be supported or disproved by such evidence. Thank you very much. Notwithstanding the sarcasm, that, as well as the reply by the poster immediately following your post, is exactly the sort of information and exchange I was hoping to get here and not surly comments that are little more than nightclub heckling. It is most appreciated. Truth is what matters, not this person or that person being right. Ego has nothing to do with justice, the purported purpose of this forum.

  8. #104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    Your point about what motive the ransom note writer might have in taking paper from the middle of the pad is interesting. The first four pages of Patsy's pad, the one the ransom note writer used, were covered in lists and doodles (according to Steve Thomas) so that might provide a sufficient reason right there. If Patsy wrote the note, she might have wanted to conceal the provenance of the paper, but (again according to Thomas), she volunteered that it looked like the ransom note came from one of their pads when she was shown a Xeroxed copy of the note. Detectives saw no resemblance between the paper of the pads and the Xerox so they found that comment noteworthy.

    Thomas says that they suspected that there was another practice note before the practice note, judging by bleed-through. The police probably checked all the pages, but a lack of bleed-through after the last page of the ransom note wouldn't necessarily point to an intruder. Patsy could have removed the pages just before she started writing.
    Thank you for that most constructive reply. It is most appreciated. Please see my response to the poster who left the reply immediately preceding yours.

    Firstly, it’s been years since I read Mr. Thomas’s book. I wasn’t aware that several pages on top of the notepad contained lists and doodles. I agree that that reason alone might provide an answer why the ransom note writer took pages below them, either flipping the first pages to the first unused sheet and writing the note or tearing them out beforehand. The latter possibility, however, presumes that the writer knew in advance exactly how many sheets he or she would need which seems unlikely, especially in light of the presence of the false start (“practice note”). If the writer ripped out more pages than he or she ultimately needed, then there would have been evidence of one or more torn out unused sheets. Therefore, the flipping the pad open towards the middle and writing the note while the pages were still attached seems the more likely possibility if the note was written at the house. Why destroy any unused ripped out sheets but leave the false start?

    You wrote:

    “Thomas says that they suspected that there was another practice note before the practice note, judging by bleed-through." [Emphasis added]

    By “bleed-through,” do you mean what I termed leaving indentations in pages below those that have been written upon? If so, then I’m confused. The last poster observed that the note was written in a felt-tipped pen and thus would not leave indentations, which seems right to me (as I conceded). You are saying the poster is wrong?

    On a final point, if I had been Patsy writing the note I would have destroyed the false start, tearing it up and flushing it. It strongly reinforces the impression that the note was written then and there at the Ramseys’ house. This is a cardinal reason why I have suspected an attempted frame up.
    Last edited by Daniel XVI; September 28, 2016, 11:04 am at Wed Sep 28 11:04:14 UTC 2016.

  9. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel XVI View Post
    Thank you for that most constructive reply. It is most appreciated. Please see my response to the poster who left the reply immediately preceding yours.

    Firstly, it’s been years since I read Mr. Thomas’s book. I wasn’t aware that several pages on top of the notepad contained lists and doodles. I agree that that reason alone might provide an answer why the ransom note writer took pages below them, either flipping the first pages to the first unused sheet and writing the note or tearing them out beforehand. The latter possibility, however, presumes that the writer knew in advance exactly how many sheets he or she would need which seems unlikely, especially in light of the presence of the false start (“practice note”). If the writer ripped out more pages than he or she ultimately needed, then there would have been evidence of one or more torn out unused sheets. Therefore, the flipping the pad open towards the middle and writing the note while the pages were still attached seems the more likely possibility if the note was written at the house. Why destroy any unused ripped out sheets but leave the false start?

    You wrote:

    “Thomas says that they suspected that there was another practice note before the practice note, judging by bleed-through." [emphasis added]

    By “bleed-through” do you mean what I termed leaving indentations in pages below those that have been written upon? If so, then I’m confused. The last poster observed that the note was written in a felt-tipped pen and thus would not leave indentations, which seems right to me (as I conceded). You are saying the poster is wrong?

    On a final note, if I had been Patsy writing the note I would have destroyed the false start, tearing it up and flushing it. It strongly reinforces the impression that the note was written then and there at the Ramseys’ house. This is a cardinal reason why I have suspected an attempted frame up.
    Bleedthrough is ink that seeps through the paper and can leave ink on the page underneath. It's common in felt pens.

    The nine pages preceding the false start were torn out and not recovered. The page immediately before the false start left some bleedthrough on it. With nine pages missing, there could have been quite a few practice notes, three of three-page length. The false start was left in the pad. Simply overlooked, I dare say. Maybe the RN writer was rushed at the end.

    I don't see why the missing pages couldn't have left the house along with cord and duct tape, perhaps in Patsy's purse. (I seem to recall her having a rather large one on her arm.)

    Thomas' book is good to read and I recommend that you read it again.

  10. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post


    Bleedthrough is ink that seeps through the paper and can leave ink on the page underneath. It's common in felt pens.

    The nine pages preceding the false start were torn out and not recovered. The page immediately before the false start left some bleedthrough on it. With nine pages missing, there could have been quite a few practice notes, three of three-page length. The false start was left in the pad. Simply overlooked, I dare say. Maybe the RN writer was rushed at the end.

    I don't see why the missing pages couldn't have left the house along with cord and duct tape, perhaps in Patsy's purse. (I seem to recall her having a rather large one on her arm.)

    Thomas' book is good to read and I recommend that you read it again.
    Thank you. Please bear with me as this is critical to my thought processes.

    You wrote:

    “The page immediately before the false start left some bleedthrough on it.” [Emphasis added]

    Before the false start?

    You also wrote:

    “Bleedthrough is ink that seeps through the paper and can leave ink on the page underneath. It's common in felt pens.” [Emphasis added]

    Therefore, you are suggesting that there is no doubt that the note was written while the pages were still attached to the pad? (if so, why would the false start apparently be at the end instead of the beginning of the pages used for the note? I’m confused on this point.) If so, that renders my theory of the crime untenable. Please respond, and I’ll then have one or more final points to inquire of you before conceding defeat as to at least my personal intruder theory, although I suppose Mr. Smit’s intruder theory is still viable, though it seems unlikely to me.
    Last edited by Daniel XVI; September 28, 2016, 1:01 pm at Wed Sep 28 13:01:55 UTC 2016.

  11. #107

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    @ fr brown

    I reread your note #102. You wrote:

    "Thomas says that they suspected that there was another practice note before the practice note, judging by bleed-through. The police probably checked all the pages, but a lack of bleed-through after the last page of the ransom note wouldn't necessarily point to an intruder. Patsy could have removed the pages just before she started writing." [Emphasis added]

    This leads me to believe that it is not certain that the note was written on pages still attached to the pad.

    In your most recent note, #105, you wrote:

    “I don't see why the missing pages couldn't have left the house along with cord and duct tape, perhaps in Patsy's purse. (I seem to recall her having a rather large one on her arm.)”

    Or, as exactly with my theory as stated ten years ago here, the intruder could have lifted a number of pages (and the pen) from Patsy’s pad—not knowing exactly how much he or she would require beforehand— during the holiday party or some other time and brought back with him or her only the pages needed, the ransom note and the false start (as part of the act, to reinforce the perception that the note was written then and there). Therefore, I ask you again, is there any proof that the note was written on pages still attached to the pad?

    On a peripheral issue, I totally don’t understand what you mean that the missing pages could have left the house in Patsy’s purse along with the cord and tape. When did she have the opportunity to do that? You mean before the police arrived?

    Anyway, unless you can provide evidence that the note and false start were written on pages still attached to the pad, then your last answer actually reinforces my theory.

  12. #108

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    Because some of what I wrote wasn't completely clear, I'm going to make a last comment.

    It's my understanding that the "false start" page was still attached to the pad. The nine pages before it were torn out, as were the three pages after it, ie, the ransom note.



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