John and the notepad

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Thor, May 16, 2002.

  1. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Although I truly believe John was in on the coverup of this crime at the very least, I just have to wonder what his reasoning was behind giving the cops the notepad that the ransom note came from. I think both Rams know what happened that night and still go back & forth between suspects. So why in hell did he do this? Anyone have any ideas?
     
  2. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    Thor

    In his haste to appear cooperative (IMHO) he gave the cops the notebook, not realizing, at the time, that it had been the "practice notebook."

    The only other reason I can think of is that he wanted to steer the cops AWAY fom himself, and in Patsy's direction.

    I believe it was the former of the two.

    GL
     
  3. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    Just throwing these out, noting they come from various theories:

    1) He knew they'd find it anyway, so he gave it to them to make it look like he had no idea....

    2) He didn't know the ransom note was written on it.

    3) He didn't know they'd find the imprints from the note buried in it.

    4)What Greenleaf said....

    So why not just get rid of the pad with the cord/duct tape, etc.?

    Maybe they figured people KNEW Patsy kept a pad with her lists around and if it just disappeared, it would look even more suspicious. Especially since the ransom note would surely be identified as coming from one LIKE the kind the Ramseys used, which lots of people knew.

    On the other hand, explain to me why an intruder wouldn't bring a ransom note if he knew ahead of time he was going to use one? I can't quite follow the logic that he was just bored or something while lolling around the house waiting to beat, molest and kill a six year old.

    Oh, yeah, he didn't bring his own in case he was caught before he got to write that one, breaking into the house. Didn't want the cops to know he was going for the child, and hence...an attempted kidnapping charge. Also, paper and pen could be traced back to him if he was caught.

    Well, then why didn't he kidnap her? And when he didn't kidnap her, if something went wrong and he changed his mind...why put the note on the steps and leave it, with his handwriting on it and all that other info that might lead to him? Why not just take the note with him and then throw it away, burn it?

    Why not take the garrote away, for that matter? That's evidence.

    Which brings me to another question, but I think I'll ask it on a new thread.

    Good question, Thor.
     
  4. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Great thread Thor.

    I go back and forth as well.

    If I had to place a bet I would say John did not have any idea at the time the ransom note was written on that pad. If he knew I think he would have at least ripped out the first 10 pages.

    If John was in on the writing of the note (dictating it some believe) then he would have known there was a practice note and gotten rid of it before turning the pad over.

    Of course under that kind of stress he may not of thought of getting rid of the incriminating paper if he was involved from the beginning.

    I dunno. Back and forth.

    I watched the Learning Channel tonight. Top Ten Show. Tonight it was the top ten Murder Mysteries.

    #2 was JonBenet

    #1 was the Zodiac killer.

    I think BobC put it best Mjenn. This is overkill as far as a staging goes. Everything is thrown in for good measure. This is how someone who was not a criminal would stage a crime scene.

    So much to this case. I can only pray someday we will know the truth.

    Tricia
     
  5. imon128

    imon128 Banned

    My take

    I believe John handed the pad over because he thought it was one OTHER THAN the ransom notepad. This could be because:

    1) He and Patsy wrote the note on a notepad in the den (or some such room) and he believed it to still be in the den (or some such room) but Patsy put it on that little table, unbeknownst to John OR

    2) He took a long shot that the cops would simply pull pages out of the pad that had Patsy's (or his) penmanship on it and never be any the wiser OR

    3) He was totally innocent....cough, cough, yeah, right, imon.

    That's my thoughts, FWIW
     
  6. Camper

    Camper Banned

    Hmmmm

    1. He handed it to the cops cuz he knew they would find it anyway, (just like they would find the body, er, huh).

    2. He handed it to the cops to appear truthful, plus it would not fit into the golf bag, huh?
     
  7. Mels

    Mels Member

    They thought through basic things together that night, in my scenerio at least, but when the day dawned and that call made to BPD, they slipped back into their very disjoined way of being a family.

    My thoughts:

    1) JR handed it to the cops thinking cops would write on it, confuse it with their own and it would be lost forever.

    2) As a perp is known to do, he was there to 'help' and thus mask his own involvement.

    3) He truly might not have realized the note pad was THE notepad.

    4) He didn't get rid of it in time to hide it.

    I don't believe John had a thing to do with the writing of the Ramsom Note. I believe he may have been caring out some of the staging at that point, stuff Pats couldn't deal with.

    The RN is MUCH too detailed, shifting in thought, and garbbled to come from a man. Let's face it, men are very cut and dried when they communicate.

    IF he knew about the RN, he totally left it to Pats to take care off. I think JR was heavily focused for many years on Corporate stuff to even think through a ransom note...other than maybe, 'blame it on my company'.

    HOWEVER...he likely was involved in the cover up because he totally circumvented the procedures an Exec is to follow in such an instance. Calling his Security chief would have been his first obligation, wasn't covered by the writer of the RN, so would have completely logical to call Security. He would have known they would have handled it with expertise...something they didn't need at that hour.

    Placement of the RN to insure it is found:

    I leave notes to my kids all the time. I put it where I KNOW they will find it. Usually in the MIDDLE of a floor on a chair so they have to move the chair to get by, thus find the note, before they can procede with their own agendas.

    I have left notes on the stairs, on the floor outside or inside a door, they get walked over. You would want that note to be in a VERY conspicuous place!

    NEVER would I leave it on a stair case where if seen it might be stepped over or scootched off the stair as trash to be gathered later.

    I might leave it on the coffee pot in the kitchen, if they had one...that is where my very forgetful son leaves his notes he wants us to find in the morning. This RN was 'placed on the stairs' (sure it was..) by a very egocentric individual thinking only of their morning activities.

    *batting eyelashed* "Geeze, where should I put this so I'll find it? I mean everyone knows this spiral staircase is the most used one in the house...we never use the other one, so let's put it here."

    A RN writer would have thought many things through been in and out FAST, and that phone would have rang at the specified time.

    Mels
     
  8. Toltec56

    Toltec56 New Member

    Notepad

    John read the RN before turning over the notepad. The police requested handwriting samples, he retrieved Patsy's pad in the kitchen, and his pad from his den.

    I cannot believe the man didn't recognize the paper in which the RN was written. The notepads are similar, the entire family uses them. Fleet White carried one away with him on the 23d. LHP had a pad she took home with her. My guess is that John brought home these pads from Access.
     
  9. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Guest

    I don't know what John's exact motivation was...

    ...at the moment that he handed the pad to the police.

    Some of the odd responses have all the earmarks of someone guilty and playing it by ear.

    The "Gotta scratch Plan A and go to Plan 9 from Outer Space" theory of John and Patsy's behaviour makes some sense to me...like their entire response was being ad-libbed in a fear-sweat from moment to moment.

    Along with why did John hand over the "practice pad" of all the possible paper sources in the house...why did he look Linda Arndt in the eye over JonBenet's body and growl "this is an inside job!"

    What the heck was that about? Inside job. "Inside" what?

    Inside Access Graphics? Or, inside 755 Fifteenth Street?

    My first take back in 1997 was that John was trying to protect Patsy, but...if she was going to go down for murder, he was not going to go with her...separate lawyers..."inside job"...etc.

    Just my opinion, but it seemed like the behaviour of someone who was playing all the possibilities to keep Patsy out of prison, and (in case he had to bail) leaving a trail of "outs" for himself.
     
  10. Mels

    Mels Member

    Yep, Dunvagan, that is so classic of a typical Corporate Exec.

    "We have the plan, I'll do my best to keep your arse from getting fried. However, I'll have to make sure this Tower doesn't fall on me or anything important to me should your arse happened to get nailed". AND, not necessarily in that order.

    Guess I've just rubbed too many elbows.

    Mels
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    handing the pad over

    He could have handed the pad over purposely to make the police think, he or Patsy weren't the authors of the note who in their right minds would hand over the actual notepad the ransom note was written on? A little psychology coming into play.

    We can't say John Ramsey was oblivious of the notepad being the same as the ransom note paper. He moved it from the bottom stair on to the floor, and yet no prints turned up. He must have worn those fine plastic gloves ...the type which come with hair colouring products, and there must have been plenty of those around with the amount of hair colouring Patsy did on JonBenét.

    As a friend of mine pointed out recently, there were no folds in the paper, which definitely points to the note having been written on the premises.
     
  12. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    fingerprints

    I have heard that sometimes paper can be handled without retaining fingerprints. I guess it depends on the paper and the oils on the handler's hands.
     
  13. AK

    AK Member

    That note...

    I always figured it would have made better sense for the Ramseys to have insisted all their pals read and handle the note -- adding prints on top of prints, and thus, obscuring the "real" perp's prints. Having the papers hit the lab with no prints at all seems far hinkier.

    Of course, the Ramseys had crime novels in their bedroom, so they had a good sense of prints and kidnapping investigations. One of the books was specifically about the abduction of a businessman's young daughter.
     
  14. Mels

    Mels Member

    No print on the note...hmmm.

    A mother gets up in the morning, prepares for the day, come down the spriral stairs and Steps OVER several sheets of paper to the next most step down...turns around and begins to read that note.

    She would be reading in the dark, so how could she have even seen it to step over it....maybe Fly knows this answer.

    She does NOT pick it up, heart pounding, breath short and fast, to re-read and orient herself at a very early hour to this foreign note in her home. She isn't afraid someone might be in the room ready to grab her, so she runs fast upstairs. WITHOUT that Note...and begins to look around for her daughter very quietly so as not to disturb her son, who for all she knows may be gone too?!?

    She does NOT pick it up and go screaming to see if she can find her daughter, then carry it upstairs to her husband who said he heard her yelling while he was showering. She leaves the thing two flights down, wouldn't it have been more realitstic if she had grabbed it, gone running up stairs to give it to Hubby? Then thrown it on the bed or desk so as not to get it contaminated?

    NOt this couple...They go back down stairs...

    A man much accustomed to reading/re-reading memos, emails, etc, and making fast decisions as they pertain to important things at work makes NO attempt to grab this paper off the floor for further review?

    To me, this says automatically that John IS involved, at least in the cover-up. OTerhwise his prints would have been on the papers as he snatched them off the floor.

    BECAUSE: This note was written by a party who had been in their home with out their being aware, might still be there, listening, his heart would have been pounding, is mind going a million miles an hour...he would have snatched it out of Pats hands or off the floor to simly try and get a 'fix' on the situation. He likely would have pulled Pats up the stairs behind him, secured Burkes room and told her to Stay Put, not leave the room.

    There SHOULD have been fingerprints...both of theirs!

    UNLESS!! They were terribly worried about getting their prints over the criminals prints...at that point they would have gone into the 'DON'T' mode.

    DON'T touch anything, move anything, walk over where evidence might be and CERTAINLY DON'T have a few couples over for coffee and doughnuts to contaminate the scene. Don't touch the phone, use the cell to call Security Officer at work. Retrace steps so as not to contaminate anything.

    JUST like we have been taught NOT to move an accident victim...we just know NOT to contaminat a crime scene.

    John and Pats were no different in their basic knowledge...add to that the books on their night stands and they would know for SURE not to move, touch, etc.

    IF you chose to call 911, wouldn't you DEMAND a non-uniformed officer, no squad car, no lights, and wouldn't you make sure you greeted them at the door with a hug like you were expecting someone for breakfast?

    VERY 'hinky' behavior from the beginning...too bad hinky isn't a crime.

    Mels
     
  15. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Very good points Mels. From early on I thought it was hinky that no prints were found on that note at all. I don't care what Toejam says about oils from the hand & stuff. Here were both John and Patsy involved with reading the note so they tell the cops and nothing. Personally, I think their explanation regarding finding the note on the stairs and Patsy's ballet leap to read it backwards was a fairy tale and more bs.
     
  16. imon128

    imon128 Banned

    Tee hee

    Well...we don't have to worry about John Fernie. His alibi was that he read it through the patio door, at 6ish in the morning, (dark?), and UPSIDE DOWN, yet!!!!! AND HENCE, we know why his wouldn't be there...if they weren't there. Tee frickin' hee hee.
     
  17. imon128

    imon128 Banned

    From the mouth of Steve Thomas

    From Steve T's book, hardback, page 200, he says:

    "But the lab DID identify seven latent fingerprints on the tablet from which the ransom note came. None of them belonged to an intruder. One belonged to Sergeant Whitson, who hnadled the tablet on the morning of December 26. A second belonged to CBI's Chet Ubowski. The remaining five fingerprints were Patricia Ramsey's."

    What I wonder is why they didn't find any of John Ramsey's fingerprints on it, if he did indeed hand over the pad. Hmmmmmm.
     
  18. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Guest

    I'll buy the "no oils" on John's fingers...

    ...explaination because:<ol>1. John (but not Patsy) had taken a shower that morning, and...
    2. John is obviously as dried up as a lizard..."hence" all that lip licking.

    For all we know, John took a 'specially good shower that particular morning...to wash away "everything"...maybe he even used a pumice stone on his fingertips.
     
  19. Elle

    Elle Member

    Re: That note...

    Fedorax, the Ramsey friends were not reading or touching the original ransom note. The original was taken away to the police station by Officer French. When Linda Arndt made her first visit to the Ramsey home, she brought a copy of the ransom note with her.
     
  20. AK

    AK Member

    Thanks, Elle

    I didn't explain myself well. What I meant to say is -- for people who had read true crime books and novels they should have had a sense of procedure. And they should have made sure their friends were in the house passing around the note before the cops were called. 'Cuz once it's in the hands of the police, it's gonna be off limits.
     
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