Put the garrote in Patsy's hands

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by MJenn, May 16, 2002.

  1. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    OK, the one thing that gives me pause with Patsy being the sole killer in this murder is the garrote and the sexual angle.

    The sexual abuse angle is one I can accept as some circumstance which existed in some way in that family. It's far too common to say it's unbelievable.

    But I can't rectify Patsy making that garrote, with it's competent construction and effective useage in the middle of the night after some accident, putting in on her breathing daughter and strangling the life out of her.

    I'd just settle for some plausible explanation as to how she'd know how to make such a thing on short notice and use it? Luck? That's the part I'm never able to swallow.

    Anyone?
     
  2. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    I don't think she constructed this thing either. I can't see her making this. I think this is a male thing, involving the "garrote". I have read Delmar England's analysis of this thing and do not believe Patsy constructed such a device. This was made by either John or JAR. If Patsy killed JonBenet, manual strangulation or whatever, John or another male is in on the coverup with this "garrote". Delmar does not think it was that sophisticated of a device, either. IMO.
     
  3. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Burke was a boy scout. His dad was into sailing. Making knots and such.

    I think it is very plausible that Burke made this. Not as a killing tool but just as a project of some sort. Perhaps long ago.Perhaps not. Could have very easily been lying in the basement. Patsy picked it up.

    Remember we are trying to put logic into an illogical situation. An over staged crime scene that doesn't make any sense at all. Unless you can think illogically. In a panic mode.

    It is hard for any of us to imagine the rage the killer felt. Therefore being that most of us are parents we can't imagine how a parent could do all of the things in this murder. I am not saying we can't believe it but it is hard to imagine because of who we are.

    We can't put logic into Patsy's rage because it is not logical. We can't put ourselves in her "shoes" because we are not anything like her. We don't know what deep secrets she has. What rages she might feel. We just don't know.

    We keep trying to make sense of this. We are trying to go from point A to point B when in reality there are no points. Nothing that connects it all together because it is so illogical. That is what we need to accept. If we can, then we can put the garrote in Patsy's hands, we can put the pen in her hand, the ransom note in her hand writing, the penetration with fingers or another object, the chronic abuse of a sexual nature, ( some say a corporal punishment for bed wetting caused this) and we can put the murder of her daughter in her hands.

    We can do this because that is where the evidence leads.

    IMHO.

    Tricia
     
  4. Camper

    Camper Banned

    Hmmm

    Well it sounds like a Skakel thing to me. I remember the burying the cat with head up then running over it with the lawn mower. He was establishing a history of a sort. Wonder how old Skakel was when he did this?

    The only 'history' I see for Burke doing this, is of course the golf club incident in Michigan. Does one 'violent thing' in his past really create a 'history of violence'. We do not know of any other events of 'rage' in this little boy, because we are kept in the dark.

    We do know that alcohol evokes and involves VIOLENCE in dang near every case where extreme criminal acts have occurred.

    Now then seems to me that a normal route in trying to solve this murder would be to 'crack' the air tight alibi of the most likely suspect. We have a level of mystery here that is nearly unfathonable in our daily thinking, given unbelievable events such as the parents not sitting with the authorities for nearly 4 months. There certainly appeared to be non concern by the Ramseys for the rest of the Boulder community in regard to the 'killer on the loose' just a simple hold your babies close warning.

    I personally can SEE the killer being drunk and in a total rage. The only BIG question to answer is what was the rage about?
    Given the semen blanket found in the basement and the tool for murder used in sexual activity, I am connecting the dots and getting a picture, of who had used that tool before. It was not Burke, in my humble opinion.

    Oh, the odors on that garrote stick, if only the BPD had used a bloodhound in that initial arrival, and if they had only found the body first.
     
  5. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    I don't agree with

    any of you. The wooden part of the garrote was made from a broken paintbrush handle that was right there near where JB's body was found. When I want to retrieve something from a high shelf, I don't fashion a garrote - I grab a chair or a ladder and stand on it and try not to fall off and break my arse.

    There are some adults who will argue the case of a woman sexually abusing her children - we all know about the poster Shee's awful experiences as a child. I have to believe that is not as prevalent as a man sexually abusing his children, but all I have to base that on is my own feelings as a woman and a mother of daughters. I've often pondered how anyone can be sexually attracted to children at all, much less their own children. That kind of behavior is an abberation to me, so it's obvious I have my own biases based on my own healthy (as opposed to sick) and respectful feelings toward children.

    Maybe that's why it is so difficult for me to imagine Patsy sexually abusing JB, but I also realize it happens, so... It makes more sense to me that a male in the house was the abuser, if she was indeed being sexually abused, which may have been something that only started in the days leading up to the murder.

    I most certainly do not see Patsy fashioning that garrote device. I really believe that JR did most, if not all, of that part of the staging, and Patsy wrote the note as staging. I have never believed one person acted alone in the staging. If we knew for sure which one killed her, it would be easier to determine how it happened. As it stands right now, we are faced with two or three different scenarios, depending on which one did the actual murder. I still have no doubt in my mind that they conspired to stage, convolute, and cover up the reason JB died.
     
  6. Kelly

    Kelly Member

    knot

    Whomever made that garrotte may have had a thing with tying knots, possibly for relaxation like some people crochet, others cross stitching, or doing other things with their hands for relaxation. It's not that I think someone sits around fashioning garrottes for relaxation, just that it ended up being used as a garrotte in a desperate attempt to cover up the whack on the head. Only today after reading this thread have I come to believe that the garrotte was already made and was found by the perp (Patsy), to be used for staging.

    I'm sure the Ramseys know who tied that knot. It was so intricate that whoever did it had done it before. IMO it was Burke who made the thing, either as a project for something in boy scouts or John was teaching Burke to tie sailing knots and used a paint brush to tie the knot on. It is easier to learn to tie up a sailboat if you practice on something small rather than learn by tying up the boat.

    I know there were broken paint brush pieces near the crime scene. I think someone saw the paint brush with the knot tied around it and broke part of the brush off when they realized it would come in handy for staging.

    Talk about something being overstaged, whatever happened to JonBenet that night was overkill and over done. Who do we know that does EVERYTHING overstaged? A whack on the head left JonBenet looking dead, then high drama by the queen of high drama set in and the spin started spinning at that point . Make it look like a molestation, no, maybe it needed more....tie something around her neck to make her look strangled so the head wound might be overlooked. Write a a ridiculous ransom note, use that spiral staircase as a prop for displaying the note, call in your friends and preacher so they can see all of this. Patsy never did anything without showing it off. The friends would also help to shield Patsy from John because she was most likely scared to death he would figure this out, which IMO, he did when he went to the basement the first time and found her body, then made the decision to take part in the cover up.
     
  7. Ayjey

    Ayjey New Member

    I keep thinking that if Patsy and/or John were responsible for JB's death, why would they want to keep the public interest in this case alive? Why wouldn't they just blame the whole fiasco on the Boulder PD's ineptitude and let it die? Why would they continue to allow jameson to draw attention to the case? Possibly to draw attention away from themselves? This could backfire on them, UNLESS they know Burke, (for example) accidently or on purpose, caused JB's injuries which drew them into the staging and covering up to protect him.

    And what better protection to have Hunter declare him as cleared, and Lin Wood right there to start a lawsuit if his name is mentioned?

    Any thoughts on this?
     
  8. fly

    fly Member

    you're ignoring the evidence

    WY made one important observation: the stick was from a broken paintbrush, fragments of which were found at the scene. From that, it is pretty darn likely that the contraption was made that night, not as some past project or while killing time some cold winter's evening.

    Here's another reason to discard the idea of some past project, etc.: JBR's hair was caught up in the cord on the stick, in addition to the knot at her neck. Again, pretty darn likely it was made that night, with JBR right there.
     
  9. Kelly

    Kelly Member

    fly

    Yes, you must be right. I had forgotten that JBR's hair was entangled in the cord. I guess I was trying to give them a little bit of credit, like they wouldn't have the presence of mind to fashion such an object just to use on their daughter.
     
  10. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    macrame

    Who knows what Patsy could do. Maybe she did macrame and knew some knots. I did macrame years ago and some of those knots are complicated. Also, she could have helped Burke tie knots if he was a cub scout. Don't forget the device made of rope to carry paintings that one of the posters described. If Patsy had made one of these before she would be familiar with that also. The garrotte is a male type of device but what better staging would there be if you were a female?

    The damage to JBR's vaginal area could have been something other than sexual in nature. Don't forget Sybil - I don't think that was sexual so much as just abuse. It could also be related to a frustrated way to make a child urinate. The bladder lies right over the vagina and a little pressure could be put on the bladder through the vagina perhaps.
     
  11. Toltec56

    Toltec56 New Member

    Knots

    John is a sailor..Burke is a sailor (quite the sailor!). Burke took sailing lessons in Charlevoix the summer before. JAR and Melinda are sailors. You can bet Patsy learned how to tie a few knots.

    I too believe the garrote was made that night. LHP placed the paint tote at the foot of the basement stairs on the 23d. Patsy went downstairs to retrieve presents on the 24th. She did admit entering the wine cellar to retrieve presents.

    There were two knives found, Burkes swiss army knife on the counter in the boiler room, and a paring knife belonging to the Ramseys on the counter near JonBenets room. We don't know if cord fibers were found on either knife. We don't know if the swiss army knife inside the cabinet outside JonBenets room was still there. I believe Burke owned two knives??

    Inside Patsy's mind that night: Self-preservation.
     
  12. fly

    fly Member

    etc.

    VP- How else could JBR's hair get entangled in the wrappings of the cord on the stick unless it was made in extremely close proximity to her? While it might be difficult to imagine WHY s/he did this, perhaps, the evidence suggests s/he did do it. The only way around that conclusion, IMO, is that the pictures showing the hair in the knots is misleading.

    Texan - Perhaps my son's experience was not the same as Burke's, but knot tying isn't a big activity in Cub Scouts. It begins to be a requirement for moving through the ranks after you get to Boy Scouts. Also, none of the rank-required knots resemble the knot on the stick, best I can tell.
     
  13. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    VP

    I kind of remember when this fibers from the cord thing came up on the forums. If I remember right, this new info came out in the paperback version of the *** a year ago. The Rams themselves wrote this but I thought they had gotten the info from somewhere else. I'd have to get my book out again & look for it. This info was not in the hardback book.
     
  14. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    fly

    Your sons experience doesn't equal all scouting experience, as you pointed out. Even if not required as a cub scout some cubs do knot tying, mine did. It doesn't even matter if the knot resembles any that are required. Some scout leaders do more than just what is required. I was just pointing out that probably no one on this forum really knows the experiences of Patsy Ramsey regarding knot tying so it isn't possible to say that she wasn't capable or even likely to tie that knot, therefore she can't be eliminated as the garotte maker on that basis.

    I haven't seen anything that would rule her out as the garotte maker and the only thing that indicates she could have would be the use of her paintbrush, probably knowing the location of the art box and it's contents. If an intruder saw the art box would that person assume there was a paintbrush or similar tool in it? Wouldn't it just as likely be a tackle box or sewing box? Why wouldn't they use a pencil? I don't know if there were any in the pen cup that the sharpie was taken from but it would be more obvious than a box in the basement.

    Also, I believe the some of the varnish on the paintbrush has flaked off which gives it a whittled appearance.
     
  15. Camper

    Camper Banned

    Hmmmm

    We really do not know if the hair IN the knot was attached to her head at the time of the removal of the device, OR if the hair was in the device from PERHAPS being made on a different day or time.

    IF the hair was already in the knot from a previous day, that would create a whole different set of thoughts about the WHO that did the murder. No intruder.

    If I recall no mention was made in the autopsy report about whether those hairs WERE IN FACT still attached to her head that were tangled within the knot.

    My eyes are not good enough to tell if there are a FEW hairs showing WITHIN the knot. It looks to me as if there may be just a couple in the body of the knot, cannot tell for certain, anyone?

    Conversely if her hair was tangled and those hairs were STILL attached to her head, then could have been ANYONE who strangled her.
     
  16. Mels

    Mels Member

    The Garrote...wasn't a garrote at all.

    who ever staged the garrote had no clue about making a real one.

    If I remember my macrame:

    Those knots were to stabalize the cord into a specific place to achieve construction of an article rather than allow it to slip.

    A hanging noose needs to slip as pointed out by Mr. England.

    A choking device, when pulled to achieve its purpose needs to slip to allow the cord to tighten.

    A choking device held by two hands at the back of the victim won't leave an evenly embedded circle around the victims neck...it will be apparent where the tension was not as tight where the cord crosses itself and is pulled tight.

    The Autopsy reports a horizontal line all the way around the neck, the garrote' was not constructed to allow it to slip, nor was it's handle in anyway fashioned to work as a tightening device.

    The handle end could turn and twist the rope, have it bunch up, but that wouldn't choke her with any speed or precision.

    There was another device fashioned to choke her with, I believe.

    There is a triangular mark that is on the left side of her neck...that may be a result of the original/first cord slipping through its knot to choke her when hanged or perhaps just pulled, but not the 'garrote' device...it was unable to slip with any effectiveness and would hold itself in place.
     
  17. Mels

    Mels Member

    After much discussion....

    We have pretty much agreed that:

    1) Who ever swung the 'maglite' (if indeed that was the device used to bash her) had to swing with tremendous focused force (I'm not sure Burke could have done that with a 7 or even 12 inch maglite).

    Even IF Burke was very angry/stressed, I don't believe he would/could have swung that hard horizontally, at that angle to her head at her hieght compared to his, he most likely would have swung from up to down.

    2) Who ever swung the 'maglite' used a 'cushion' to avoid breaking open the skin because there was no blood or skin breakage. I doubt he would have even thought about a cushion to protect the skin from breaking.

    With a cushion it would seem a small indention of the fiber pattern might could be seen.

    So, can we conclude that Burke probably didn't swing the maglite?

    At this point I am thinking the big secret that needs to be hidden is the furrow in JBs neck...probably wasn't looking as deep or discolored at the time Pats or JR may have found the kids (pure conjecture, here)...but, that may well be the secret that began the acts of staging.

    Think about it, falling is one thing, a broken arm, or a gash in the skin, etc...but a furrow around the neck? THAT would need to be kept 'close' to the family, not in the papers, not in some ER Doc's notes.

    IF a brief hanging had occurred, even if she was not fully 'hanged', and the Vegus nerve had acted to shut down her respiratory system as previously described, she could have appeared dead...then slight signs of life, convulsing, etc.

    A secret like that with an embedded furrow, would require a lot of staging to protect the perp.

    Pats wouldn't want to discipline America's Princess with a robe/cord around her neck, to be seen in the next couple of weeks by Contestants and Mom's at the January Pagent. She was totally into appearances AND very meticulous about some things.

    I don't think JR would have chosen to do ANY autoerotic strangling acts with JB because of the marks...his stimulation, if at all, would be small episodes, gently applied to maintain her silence. Do we know of autoerotic acts done with/to children? Seems the more mature element of reaching orgasm is the reason for autoerotic semi-strangulation.

    Burke MAY have engaged in sexual play with his sister, wouldn't have been considered ABnormal to do so. This would at least explain a stretched Hymen and chronic vaginal inflamation during autopsy.

    IMHO, the evidence as we understand it points to a percieved strangulation event that led to a cushioned headbashing to relieve JB of struggling, to guard against the 'Secret' getting out, then led to the cover up.

    I doubt we will ever know for sure...but this makes sense to me today, can't gaurantee tomorrow.

    Mels
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2002
  18. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    FYI

    Yes, the hair in the garrote was still attached to JonBenet's head. From Thomas' book, p. 41-2, hardback:

    "Blond hair was snared in the knot, and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord, which was tied more like a noose than a twisting garrote."

    So, it was made on her neck THAT NIGHT. No question.

    So, the garrote HAD A SLIP KNOT constructed in it--like a noose, therefore, it slipped. And I don't know how the garrote found on JonBenet could have petechial hemorrhages above and below it, running along the bruise line, if she was already dead when it was applied. If someone can explain that to me so as I can understand it, then I would be ever so grateful as I am not too smart about such things. I actually thought that if you applied a garrote to a dead body's neck, it wouldn't even bruise like a living person's neck bruises. So the med. examiner surely would have figured out if the garrote was applied posthumously, wouldn't he?

    Anyhow, I still don't see how Patsy could have known to construct such a thing on JonBenet's neck in the wake of an accident that night, that it would in fact strangle her and stop her life as it did, efficiently. Knowing knots is a far cry from strangling a human being to death. Especially your own little child.

    Still can't see how she did it. Not saying she didn't. Just saying no one has convinced me with evidence or even a likelihood she'd know how to do that.
     
  19. Mels

    Mels Member

    MJenn

    Have you read the analysis of the garrote that was written by Mr. England?

    He gets relatively detailed in his explaination of this 'garrote' and its use and effect.

    WY listed the URL earlier, here is it:

    http://www.acandyrose.com/delmarengland.htm

    Also, if you look at the stick end of the garrote, you'll see there is only one length of rope extending down from the stick. there would need to be two lengths for it to work. This rope may have been used to strangle JB, but it wasn't functioning as a garrote, that is all I am saying.

    Yes, there is a rope wrapped around the stick with JB's hair, and I am sure her hair became wrapped around that stick as the perp created the stick end of the cord. But, the length of cord below that stick was of no use as a garrote.

    there has been speculation over the years that this wasn't the actual device used to strangle her and only added later to stage over the original marks of the first device...

    Reading Mr. England's report gave me a lot to think about.

    Mels
     
  20. fly

    fly Member

    length

    The most obvious purpose for the stick contraption is to provide a better grip when tightening the noose. It wasn't really necessary, but it could be effective. However, it would not be very effective if the length of her hair would not allow the cord to be fully extended. Would be nice to know how long her hair was. Wouldn't provide any definitive proof of the stick as staging, of course. Would just be a little tidbit to consider.

    Mels - The press called the contraption a garrotte, and that label has continued to be used by many people. It's been pretty obvious from very early in the case that this isn't the prototypical garrotte. I think the term persists because there is more than just a cord involved.
     
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