Did duct tape come after garotte?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by MJenn, May 22, 2002.

  1. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    While reading the autopsy, something just caught my attention.

    Remember this? "There is a slight drying artifact on the tip of the tongue."

    I know it's been done to death on what it was. Another thought just occurred to me, however, about what this might mean when added to another piece of evidence I've seldom seen discussed: I just found out in the last six months that there was also a green paint chip found on JonBenet's chin--thank you, Cutter, who caught that little tidbit hidden in Smit's disclosures last year.

    Now, this paint chip came from the green paint in the paint tray. Added together with the garrote being tied from the back, and the paintbrush used coming from the tray, it just hit me that this artifact on JonBenet's tongue could have gotten there while she was lying on her face on the carpet near the paint tray, when she could have gotten the paint chip on her chin. Her tongue could have been out, or she could have gotten it on her lip and then licked it with her tongue or dragged her tongue across that lip during the attack or after, somehow.

    Wouldn't that imply that the tape was, in fact, applied after the garrote was applied? If her mouth was still open to recieve an artifact, I mean. Would that mean that she was already unconscious? Or not?

    On the tip of the tongue. If I was conscious and could, I would spit something off my tongue, or remove it by hand. Since JB's hands were essentially free to move to her face, if she could have, wouldn't she have gotten that off her tongue? That's a reflex, isn't it? I can feel even the tiniest artifact of anything in my mouth. She could have spit it out. But once the tape was on her mouth, she couldn't have. So was she unconsious when the artifact got there? Therefore, had received the head blow already? That would logically mean the tape was applied post head blow, it would seem.

    That staging case is getting stronger and stronger, in my mind. She's laid on the carpet near the paint tray. Face down. Paint chip sticks to chin. Garrote is applied, paintbrush broken and used for handle. During face down strangulation, the tongue is forced out of mouth open, artifact sticks to tongue. At some point she is wiped, redressed. She is laid out in the celler room, arms extended, blanket covers her in some arguable fashion. Favorite nightgown is somehow brought with her.

    Ah. Was she wearing it at some point that night?

    When were the hand restraints applied? One is untied by John, he says. Did Fleet White see this? No bruises on the wrists. Not true restraints. Just staging? Or part of "game"? Her hair was really mussed up. She looks like she'd been in bed, asleep, bed hair. No struggle. If the head blow came before the duct tape and the garrote tied and used on her, then it seems logical the wrist restraints were post head blow, too. She bled from her hymen tearing, didn't she? So she was alive when she was penetrated. Was that post head blow, too? But before the strangulation?

    So, was she attacked in her sleep, head blow came first? Or did she awaken, have some interaction with her killer, hymen tear came before or after head blow somewhere in the home or basement, the killer at some point lays her by the paint tray, face down, ties the garrote on her, strangles her with it, maybe ties the wrist ties about the same time, duck tapes her mouth shut. At some point he/she wipes her down, but it had to be before she died, right? The urine in the pants indicates she voided at death. So her pants were back up at that time. Unless she wet them in bed first and this led to the Patsy in a rage theory, and then everything follows that.

    At some point after she is laid out in the celler, John and Patsy are dealing with the ransom note by not touching it, hopping up and down steps, jumping over the note, lying it out on the floor while reading it on hands and knees, Patsy is saying "we have a kidnapping here...." Friends are called in spite of deadly warnings from someone who had their child. Cell phone records for that night are missing from the Rams' account within the year--just in time for the Rams to give permission for the BPD to get those records. The Rams lawyer up like OJ Simpson within hours. They get separate lawyers, with John having the more powerful team, for obvious reasons, though he claims for years not to know JonBenet was molested that night.

    I know I'm speculating like crazy here, and I know this may have been all put together long ago by some, so if those who know these answers will kindly share them, I'll be forever grateful and have another piece of the puzzle in place for me. I really really really really really really really really want to have a life again. Thanks ever so much.
     
  2. Ayeka

    Ayeka Member

    It would be interesting to know

    Exactly what was meant by "artifact" in this context. I always read it as meaning that a portion of protruding tongue was drying as an artifact of being poked out of her mouth. That still begs the question, how would it dry out if there was tape on it? Did the duct tape show any signs of having torn away any tongue cells? All I remember hearing is lip prints.

    It all seems very suspect to me.

    Ayeka
     
  3. Mels

    Mels Member

    Friends in high places?

    We have the BPD computers broken into with possible missing Rams information, theft of Burke's Protective Services files, now missing Ram's cell phone records? Wouldn't someone logically conclude there was a conspiracy to thwart information being released concerning all this?

    Do I remmeber in Perfect Murder Perfect Town that JR's cell records showed he called Fernie first (he was out skiing or some such in the early morning hours), then the police...a space of about 15 mins in between.

    My recollections are sketchy, guess I better find that book.

    edited to add: I thought the tape across her mouth was not what we generally call duct tape. That the tape came off very easily and wouldn't have been effective at keeping her mouth closed or preventing her from screaming.

    I am so glad you are bringing up all of these questions!

    Mels
     
  4. fly

    fly Member

    artifact

    As Ayeka said, this "artifact" is not something ON the tongue (note, the autopsy actually says "OF" the tongue), but simply means an area of her tongue was exposed to air and dried out.

    Remember, the tape was off her mouth for about 18 hours before the autopsy. If you look at the pictures of her body, her mouth is slightly open. Odds are it dried out AFTER the tape was removed when the body was first found.
     
  5. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    Oh, never mind....

    I thought that "of" was a typo for "on" the tongue. Oops.

    Cause I thought an artifact was a foreign particle of some sort. Like an ancient artifact. Guess I'm getting my "artifacts" confused. I guess I'm getting confused with the material found in the vagina.

    So, this means her tongue was somehow gouged or bitten, so that it had a piece of tissue, a "drying artifact," on it? The language is so strange to me: an "artifact" of being out of her mouth.

    Websters: artifact, n. 1. any object made by man, esp. with a view to subsequent use. 2. Biol. a substance, structure, or the like, not naturally present in tissue, but formed by artificial means, as chemicals.

    OK, I guess someone is going to have to explain to me the twisted way in which the medical community has used this term in this autopsy.

    Cause it seems to me that would mean--what? Her tongue was protruding between her teeth and got bitten at some point? Her jaws were positioned somehow so that her tongue was somehow injured by her own teeth at some point? During the head blow? Or was it something else that caused it? It's the tip of the tongue.

    Or does it mean nothing at all?

    Oh, and those cell phone records...there were NO RAMSEY cell phone records for December of '96. They had cell phone calls in the months prior to that month, according to Thomas in his book. When the BPD got to those December records, compliments of the Ramseys almost a year later, since Hunter wouldn't subpoena them, there were no calls for the whole month. None. Nada. Period. I think you're getting their HOME PHONE records confused with their cell phone records. Plus, I think it was the lawyer, Bynum, who was on the ski trip and called to the Ramsey side later that day.

    And it was black DUCT TAPE...did I say duck tape before? LOL Well, that is the brand I have--Duck Tape, with a trademark. Yeah, it was DUCT TAPE, not electrical tape, etc. Look online and you'll find it. I didn't know it existed before this case and thought people were confusing it with electrical tape. So when I fianlly caught on--yeah, I'm slow--I found some at Lowe's. Then did some research for who would be using that in '96, since so many people really didn't even know it came in colors. If you do a search, you will find an amazing world where people use duct tape for things you cannot imagine. I mean it. But mostly it's all in fun. Like a kayak, Halloween costumes, etc. The professional uses I first learned about were that black duct tape was used on exposed ducts that are painted black, etc., like overhead in a bar, etc., to make them less visible as ducts. In other words, heating and air conditioning people use it.

    Then there was the really interesting "AHA!" moment.... Duct tape, used for many, many years by pageant contestants everywhere...to create cleavage. Especially in evening gowns and bathing suits. Someone at WS posted a funny picture some time back that showed a movie starlet wearing a dark, strapless dress with silver duct tape. Bad choice. That girl needed some BLACK DUCT TAPE.

    And then you'll find it in online catalogs...BLACK DUCT TAPE is used in "theatrical productions," etc. for stage marks and to secure cords, props, etc., because it's not visible from the audience or to cameras. Like in pageants. Or used by photographers, camera operators, etc. Looks like all roads lead to the Ramsey lifestyle, once again.

    So, once again, nothing is answered. What caused the "artifact" and would that have been before or after the duct tape was placed on her mouth? If it's a bitten off tip of tongue, did it come during the head blow?

    Sigh.
     
  6. Mels

    Mels Member

    Your Right, MJenn...

    It was Bynum, I had Fernie and him confused...and it must have been the home phone he wrote about.

    Mels
     
  7. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Guest

    The word "artifact" can be confusing...

    ...because it masks a number of unexamined assumptions. In academic parlance, "artifact" can refer to a physical object, a primary record, or a physical object that constitutes a primary record.

    It is bandied about as a "jargon" word in medical forensics with multiple both scoped and broad meaning. Artifacts of rethoric, artifacts on photos, etc.

    At in a question from <b><a href="http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/425/425final.htm">Sample Exam for JUS 425 Forensic Law</a></b> the following question is asked:<ol>"125. As a rule of thumb, how many years does an artifact (bone) have to remain undiscovered for it to fall into the realm of archaeology instead of anthropology.

    A. 20
    B. 30
    C. 50
    D. 70</ol>The answer is C.

    So, that's one use of the term "artifact" in forensic law.

    A web page for a <b><a href="http://forensic.to/webhome/bitemarks2/">forensic dentistry expert</a></b> has him referring to evidentuary bite mark and whether or not it is evidence or an "artifact":

    <ol><b>Bruising and Other Considerations</b>

    Recognition of the fact that bruising is actually subcutaneous bleeding demands that the investigator not assume that the reddened areas that appear to be teeth are an accurate representation of individual teeth.

    <b>The presence of three-dimensional indentations in skin, as seen in Torgersen, will give rise to whether the indentations are accurate or just an artifact (phantom).</b> I anticipate the choice of which is correct will vary among the dental experts in this case and probably fall one way for the State and the other way for Mr. Torgersen."

    <i>[Emphasis mine.]</i></ol>The best description of forensic analysis of the mouth that I've found so far, which also mentions "artifacts", can be viewed at a <b><a href="http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/425/425lect16.htm">Forensic Odontology</a></b> page:<ol>Bite mark comparison is fairly new, however, going back to the mid-1970s. Police investigators have always noticed that at some crime scenes, criminals seem to leave their bite impressions on food products, chewing gum, or more commonly on the skin of their victims, especially in cases of battery, rape, child abuse, and homicide.

    There are seven (7) types of bite marks which can be classified by four (4) degrees of impression:

    <ol><b>Types of Bite Marks</b>
    1. hemorrhage -- small bleeding spot
    2. abrasion -- undamaging mark on skin
    3. contusion -- ruptured blood vessel, bruise
    4. laceration -- punctured or torn skin
    5. incision -- neat puncture of skin
    6. avulsion -- removal of skin
    7. <b>artifact -- bitten-off piece of body </b>

    <b>Degrees of Impression</b>
    1. clearly defined -- significant pressure
    2. obviously defined -- first-degree pressure
    3. quite noticeable -- violent pressure
    4. lacerated -- skin violently torn from body</ol>
    Contusions are the most common type of bite mark, and incisions offer the best three-dimensional image of the teeth. When avulsions and artifacts can be combined, you've also got three-dimensional imaging. The Marx case involved very clear three-dimensional bites.

    The forensic science of analyzing degree of impression involves (at least with #3 and #4), the specification of "violence", and this kind of testimony can be taken as evidence of the defendant's state of mind, aggravating circumstances, or especially heinous behavior.

    Bite marks on a live body also have different characteristics from those on a dead body, so a forensic dentist might be able to assist with things like time of attack and/or time of death. Generally, the better the bite mark, the better an expert can make a comparison.

    The Illinois appellate case of People v. Milone (1976) establishes this principle in that, to be admitted, dental evidence must be agreed upon by the scientific community as "good quality". This means that bite mark evidence usually meets the Frye standard, at least in this regard.</ol></ol>That's all I can find for now...perhaps someone has a better reference (or a definition from a forensic medicine book.)

    <hr>

    Just found this at <b><a href="http://www.benecke.com/dna-stra.html">a forensics white paper abstract page</a></b>:<ol> It is frequently difficult to prove the vitality in cases of fatal hanging. Using impulse cytophotometry, M¨¹ller et al. (Krim. Forens. Wiss. 44, 1981) reported on possibly vital alterations of the DNA content in five strangulation marks (hypodiploidy). The objective of the present study was to perform a re-evaluation by means of current methods of quantitative DNA analysis. The investigation included 24 cases of hanging (typical, n=11; atypical, n=13). DNA was extracted by use of phenol/chloroform and quantitated photometrically in relation to the tissue weight. In addition, skin specimens were examined histologically and their water content was determined.

    The mean DNA content of strangulation marks was 3.2 ¦Ìg DNA/mg tissue, that one of uninjured skin (control) 1.4 ¦Ìg DNA/mg tissue. The ratio of DNA content between strangulation grooves and control skin varied from 1.2 to 5.2 (average: 2.4) implicating apparently elevated DNA levels in strangulation marks. Histology revealed typical changes with absence of leukocyte infiltration suggesting mechanical compression of DNA containing layers.

    The additional determination of the water content emerged - in dependence on the macroscopic appearance, dried or non-dried - reduced values for strangulation marks (average: 42% vs. 66%). Statistical analysis demonstrated a significant correlation between elevated DNA content and reduced water content of strangulation marks.

    Conclusion: the markedly elevated DNA content of strangulation marks is interpreted as <b>an artefact due to drying of the skin with a reduction of the water content (and weight) in the course of mechanical cutaneous alterations (compression).</b>

    Therefore, quantitative changes in the local DNA content of the groove have no importance as a sign of vitality in fatal strangulations.

    <b><i>Emphasis mine.<i></b></ol><b>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2002
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    No knots untied by John

    Thank you for this important information, Dunvegan.

    MJenn ....no knots were untied by John Ramsey. He found the knots too tight. He could have slipped them off, which is what Dr. Myers did. The right wrist was the only one with a ligature still present. One loop is larger than the other. The left ligature must have slipped off ...when (?). I attached a photo but it didn't work. Maybe someone else will post a copy of these wrist loops..
     
  9. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    Thanks, elle, good point

    Which I guess is one that I've always found confusing, so I easily mispoke about this because of the (usual) conflicting stories and the facts. I've seen the pics of the wrist ligature many times. But here's the confusion:

    In Thomas' book, he describes on p. 172 (hardback) what John had to say during his interview four months after the murder:

    "He then described going to the little cellar room.... She was on her back...her arms were tied...."

    But then in DOI, (hardback) on page 22, John says this:

    "I can't stand the sight of her hands tied and have to do something to get them loose. I start untying her, but I can't get the tight knot undone. Everything begins to blur and I'm slipping out of my mind and losing control. I grab JonBenet under her arms and pick her up...."

    This has always bothered me. The knots were too tight, so John does what? He never says he slips the ligature off, that I can remember. So, when did John pull the left wrist restraint off? I know both are still looped in the picture. He said her arms were tied in the four month interview and in his book, written four years later. So when did he pull that tie off the left wrist?

    I know I know I know....done to death. But still bothers me. Fleet White was close on John's heels that morning when they found JonBenet. Fleet felt her body cold and then ran upstairs to alert the police. I wonder if he saw the wrist restraint on her left wrist, off it, or John pulling it off?

    If John is to be believed, then her wrists were both tied when he found her. Is there some source where he ever says he pulled the loop off her left wrist? I don't recollect one.

    Then that would mean her shirt was either on her when she died, with wrist ligatures on both wrists, left there for John to "find," or if her shirt was removed and then she was redressed--I mention this because it's been a point of debate by Thomas, the ligatures were applied after the redressing. Was that post murder, also?

    Unless John is lying. LOL Which means we'll probably never know.
     
  10. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    Thanks, also, Dunvegan

    Great information.

    So does this mean that the "artifact of tongue" is where she bit a piece off her tongue?

    So when did that happen?

    During the head blow? During strangulation? Or was it post mortem?

    If y'all have already sussed this out, I'd love to know what you concluded. Cause obviously I'm quite lost in the autopsy world of forensics.

    And if you can throw in why I can't spell anymore, I'd be especially grateful....
     
  11. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    OH! Wecht just said "POSTMORTEM ARTIFACT"!!

    I'm so excited! :)

    He's talking about a human skull being separated at the--did he say "suture" lines, meaning the place the skull sections grow together? Said they could come apart and not be a "cracked skull."

    And somewhere in there he said "POSTMORTEM ARTIFACT."

    Is Post Mortem two words?

    I want my brain reprogrammed. Updated with more memory and better chips and circuits.

    No, I'm not talking lobotomy, either, though if I don't give up this case soon I may get one the old fashion way--catatonia.
     
  12. fly

    fly Member

    artifact

    MJenn - Good ears. Wecht is using artifact in the same way I believe it is used in the autopsy -- to indicate that something that occurred was not directly caused by the issue under study.

    In his example, a skull fracture's pattern can reflect the difference in the strength of the skull at different locations, rather than the actual points of contact with an object. The length and location of the fracture is an artifact related to skull weaknesses, rather than a result of the contact with the weapon.

    In JBR's case, the dried area of her tongue was not directly caused by something involved in the attack, but rather, was caused by exposure to the air after the fact.

    Artifact is an extremely common term used in this way in many areas of science.

    Dunvegan - Interesting use of artifact in the classification of bites. I doubt that is how it is being used in the autopsy, but it is possible. If there was an actual injury, I suspect the ME would have described it in more detail.
     
  13. Gecko

    Gecko Member

    Mjenn

    The skull has a longitudinal and a saggital suture line.THE longitudinal is from front to back,and the saggital runs across the middle from side to side.These are what allow a baby's head to grow to adulthood in order to hold the growing brain structures,as the baby grows.Have you ever felt a baby's 'soft' spot?Well,it looks like to me that that was where the blow landed.Now,these suture lines are not fully fused until late teens or early twenties,even tho the soft spot is closed.A blow there would apparently,possibly,seperate these is what I think Wecht is saying.Now,this is clear as mud,I guess,'cause I am remembering from a LONG time back.Gecko
     
  14. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    No, I see what you're saying, Gecko. Thanks for your help. As I said, as a layperson, I get terms mixed up. The use of the word "suture" is odd to me because I thought that involved stitches and needles and such...as in "remove the suture...." But like "artifact," I guess "suture" has different meanings in the medical profession. They're so sneaky, aren't they? Just like to confuse those of us paying the bills, I guess.... Makes them look so smart! :)
     
  15. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Guest

    A good line of inquiry, MJenn...

    ...please keep going....
     
  16. Toltec56

    Toltec56 New Member

    duct tape

    Steve Thomas claims in his book that the duct tape had perfect lip impressions of JonBenet...believing that the tape was placed post mortem. You can also see the tape impression on JonBenets face in the autopsy photos.

    JonBenet was strangled after being hit over the head. She was laying on her stomach near the wine cellar when she was garroted. There, the paint tote was found, urine stains were found, shards of wood were found, Burkes knife was found on the counter nearby. I believe she was picked up by the killer, causing her arms to extend over her head, and placed in the wine cellar.

    Another scenario would be that JonBenets arms were placed over her head to get them out of the way while the killer re-dressed JonBenet.
     
  17. Mels

    Mels Member

    I'm trying to clear up a nagging memory....

    It was a few years back on JW when we were revisiting the duct tape scenario.

    I distinctly remember reading that the tape was sticky, but not duct tape, also that it was easily removed and didn't leave any residue on JB, and that it wouldn't have held up to her movement under the tape. Also, that there was fluid transfered from JB to the tape.

    Rereading Schiller's book, I see the description of the tape as 'black duct tape'. I also remember that the police had gone to a hardware store and found the same tape Pats had apparently bought there just before C'mas.

    Toltec, would you please post a link to the autopsy pic you reference that shows the impression of the tape on JB's face?

    Mels
     
  18. fly

    fly Member

    sutures

    Just to keep things accurate...

    There are more than two sutures of the skull. The coronal suture runs from the left side to the right side of the skull, going over the top, and is located toward the front of the skull (about half-way between the forehead and the ear. The saggittal suture run along the midline at the top of the skull, going from the coronal suture all the way back to about half-way down the back of the skull. Two other sutures (can't remember the name - might be lateral or parietal, but not sure) run along the sides of the head, from the coronal suture to a little ways beyond the ear. Finally, there are two sutures at the back of the skull (again, forget the names). They run at an angle to the left and right from the end of the saggittal suture to the rear portion of the lateral sutures. Think of an upside-down Y, with the saggittal suture being the normal base of the Y and these two sutures being the "arms" of the Y.

    Based on the photo of the skull fracture, the linear portion of the fracture looked like it was probably above the "lateral" suture. It might have involved one of the posterior sutures where it traveled around to the back of the skull, however. No expert here, for sure, but I don't think the fracture was following a suture line along much, if any, of its length.
     
  19. Toltec56

    Toltec56 New Member

    Mels

    The pics came from Jamesons forum....which disappeared.

    The pics were shown on Today Show...Lou Smits powerpoint presentation.

    Steve Thomas claims the tape featured perfect lip impressions which I take to mean postmortem. The artifact on the tip of JB's tongue would also suggest to me her tongue was exposed to air...which can happen when the tongue stays dry for a period of time. That is virtually impossible in a live person...a dry tongue.
     
  20. WhiteWolf

    WhiteWolf Member

    Will the fiber evidence help?

    Wow, good thread! I think the order in which the duct tape was applied when JonBenet was attacked can tell us a lot.

    According to Smit there were light brown cotton fibers found on JB's BODY (he didn't specify if on her skin or her clothes), on the nylon CORD, the TAPE, and the BROKEN PAINT BRUSH HANDLE. Smit thinks the killer may have worn gloves.

    Fibers found on the tape (not necessarily ALL of the fibers on tape) were 4 red fibers said to be from Patsy's jacket, a beaver hair, and light brown cotton fibers.

    Fibers were found on JonBenet said to be consistent with a comforter and pillow sham inside a suitcase that belonged to JAR (according to the CBI). The fibers were located on JB's hand, hand ligature, on her shirt, on her vaginal area, and in the body bag. Note: There is no mention of these fibers being on JonBenet's PANTIES, LONGJOHN BOTTOMS, or the TAPE. The FBI says the fibers don't match the pillow sham, comforter, or anything in the Ramsey house.

    The Ramseys have said there were CORD fibers found in JonBenet's BED. Note: There has been no mention by Smit, Thomas, the Ramseys, or anyone else about ANY other fibers being found in JB's bed. No light brown cotton fibers or the comforter and pillow sham fibers (or as the FBI says "unmatched" fibers).

    One thing I do notice is there is no mention of CORD fibers being on the TAPE.

    What does all of the fiber evidence tell us?

    WhiteWolf (MissPriss to some)
     
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