Dr. Bea Is back!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Tricia, May 31, 2002.

  1. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Dr. Bea has, among a million other things, been sick in bed. Then she had to do this big therapy thing, then she had to see a million patients. Add to that her desire to cure world hunger and find world peace and you have one busy babe of a doctor you know?

    However Dr. Bea has scheduled an appointment for FFJ on Friday evening. She will be in front of her computer around 10:00 pm Eastern.

    I couldn't find the last set of questions for the good doctor so if you wouldn't mind posting them here that would help.

    I have one.

    In a past thread Dr. Bea you gave us a description of a histrionic personality and a narcissistic personality.

    From your description I believe Patsy is both.

    I understand that if someone is diagnosed as having a Narcissistic/Histrionic personality this means the person could be dangerous. More capable of say murder. Whereas a Histrionic/Narcissistic personality is less dangerous.

    Is this correct? If so why?

    2 more questions please.

    What is the name of the test you give to determine if someone has a personality disorder.

    Is this test available on line anywhere so we could look at it..

    Thank you for your time
     
  2. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Dr. Bea, I don't post often but I do have a question for you. From the very beginning of this case I have been shaking my head over the behavior of the Ramseys when they invited all those folks into their home...after receiving the "ransom note" which clearly stated their daughter would be beheaded and so forth. What do you make of this very strange behavior from these folks? Oh yes, we know that the ransom note is a fake and most probably written by Patsy, but why put that face to the world..."ya'al come on down to our house because our daughter's gone missing". What is that? Thanks you in advance.
     
  3. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    OK, a hard one....

    Thanks for your generosity in sharing your time and knowledge with us, Dr. Bea.

    I actually have a question that might need a referral to Dr. Cynical.

    Can you give us any insight into the personality that would commit this kind of crime on a child: the bashed skull, the strangulation by "garrote" with handle, the digital or object penetration of the vagina; hiding the body in the most remote basement room; leaving a rambling, histrionic, threatening, but respectful, ransom note?

    I know I'm asking for a profile, but just wondered what a pro's insight on this might be who has nothing invested in this case. (Those who have given profiles in the past were paid, on TV, etc.)
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2002
  4. Camper

    Camper Banned

    Ahem

    MJenn, excuse me for butting in, after so many children of my own, I am known as Dr. Mom with just a hint of psycho. stuff tossed in.

    I am guessing someone who was drunk, or out of it by means of a drug.

    No one in possession of their senses would kill a tiny girl, imop.
     
  5. Dr. Bea

    Dr. Bea FFJ Senior Member

    hi all - attempts at answering..

    Well, First:
    Personality Disorders are, as I blabbed on and on about earlier, a disorder of interpersonal relationships. The Histrionic/Narcissistic/Borderline/Anti-social Cluster, "Cluster B" as they call it, centers around a lack of empathy for other people.

    I am not aware of (but who knows - there might be research somewhere) anything that says that Narcissitic being "first" in a diagnosis with Histrionic being second, makes a person more or less vulnerable to acting out violently.

    Further, the test that Trisha is talking about is the MMPI-2 (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) and no you better not be able to look at it on the internet. No test "diagnoses" a personality disorder. Instead, a psychologist makes the diagnosis based on multiple indices, including the person's history, their interpersonal interaction with others, including the psychologist, as well as looking at psychological testing to see if it supports all the other stuff that you've gathered.

    The lack of empathy is the key. That, and impulsivity. If you are impulsive, lack judgment and have not empathy, you are certainly more likely to put yourself in a situation that could end up with someone getting hurt.

    Next, about Patsy having what appears to be a gathering at her home after the note had been discovered... I simply find that strange. I suppose that she might have called everyone she knew because she felt she needed social support, but I think a more typical response would be to telephone the police immediately, and keep my other child close to me, or as the police instructed me to do - especially if the note was written, as alleged, by someone who had a grudge against my family.

    I am not a big follower of this case, as I know you are all well aware, but the more I listen and read (and I have been reading the "pro-Ramsey" forums as well), the more I think that there must have been some kind of terrible accident and that there was an attempt, at the last minute, to concoct something that would cover it up. I don't know if the mother or father or who flew into some kind of temper with this child and shoved her against something that would hit her head - or what. But the rest of it seems to be sortof unusual. I suppose if I were a person who was faced with the result of some horrible accident resulting in my child's death, and if I was frightened for myself in that moment and not focusing on the terrible loss of life that my child suffered, I would try to concoct something that would give me some kind of cover.

    I must admit, as I read things about this case, I keep flashing on that woman who drove her two kids into the lake. I keep remembering her impassioned plea to catch the person who "kidnapped" the kids. She was very believable in her televised plea for the return of her children. I am not a detective, but the facts of this case, behaviorally speaking, simply don't add up. The behavior that I have read about or seen here that the parents demonstrated, especially the mother's behavior, does not seem consistent with the things that other parents would do or say in similar situations.

    Those of you who are interested ought to run down research about Parents of Murdered Children. I know the data are there. Perhaps you can find data which supports my "hunch" that I voiced in the paragraph above.

    The last thing I was curious about was why we continue to focus our attentions on this. Is it that the act is so horrifying? Is it that the behavior of the parents in this matter is what is so inflaming to many of us, so that we feel we want them "caught?" Does focusing on this and trying to solve it in some way sortof serve as a talisman against anything like that ever happening to one of our own children? These are the thoughts that rattle about in my head as I think about this case, the existance of this forum, and why I, for one, am writing this tonight.

    Warmly,
    Dr. Bea
     
  6. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    Thanks for sharing your expertise, Camper.

    I guess you need to define your terms, though. This was a very organized killing, so no drunk or person out of it on drugs did this. This person was very much in possession of his/her senses that night.

    I would still like to hear Dr. Bea's or Dr. Cynical's analysis on this.
     
  7. Dr. Bea

    Dr. Bea FFJ Senior Member

    for MJenn

    Hi
    I agree with MJenn that the person was not drunk or on drugs. But just because they aren't drunk or on drugs does not necessarily imply that they were not "out of control."

    I have witnessed personality disordered people fly into a rage. If we could harness all that energy, we'd beat the Oil Crisis in a minute. It's quite something to behold. My thoughts were that the child did something that angered a parent or family member, but I must admit, I keep wanting to say PR. Maybe the child refused to cooperate, or perhaps the child soiled herself, or maybe PR found soiled clothing hidden (that is a common thing for stressed out kids to do) or something. Whatever it was, I believe that rage could have taken hold like a house afire. It can flare up in an instant, especially if the person feels slighted or challenged. Perhaps PR or some other family member got physical with her, and threw or shoved her, or banged her up against a wall. Think of those folks who shake babies when they are crying. The state of mind isn't necessarily cold and calculated when that is occurring. Usually the state of mind is absolute rage and hysteria. It's AFTER the act that the person becomes cold and calculating, in order to save one's ***. That's where the personality stuff comes even more into play. Many parents become enraged and distressed with their children and terrible accidents do happen. However, I would be curious to know how many then go on to attempt to create a diversion with some bizarre "ransom" note, inviting the neighbors over for tea, etc. etc.

    That's what's on my mind, still not knowing much about this case.. just the little that I've read.

    Yours,
    Dr. B
     
  8. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Thanks Dr. Bea. Glad you are back.

    The reason I keep following this case and discussing the same things over and over is because of the following:

    1- Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter and so far has gotten away with it. I am outraged by this.

    2-The only thing I can do to channel my outrage is to belong to a forum like this. As I have said a million times, the day we as a civilized society, shrug our collective shoulders at the murder of a child is the day we cease being truly civilized.

    3-This case has so many interesting and unusual aspects to it that you really could go on forever discussing the cast of characters and their mis-steps and mis-deeds along with the few that tried to do the right thing.

    The Moxley case has left me with hope that someday we will see some justice.

    Thanks Dr. Bea

    Tricia
     
  9. Camper

    Camper Banned

    OK

    I would agree to all of the above. However to defend my shirt tail analysis. The person doing the actual deed was out of control as agreed above, this in my thoughts could be a drunken person. This further explanation is based in part on the fact that a very LARGE percentage of murderous crime is in fact committed by individuals who have been drinking.

    Then the cover up was well thought out by folks who were not drinking. This makes some sense to me. This and the fact that the phone records are ALL missing, if help was needed to spirit the deed doer away.

    It is obvious the killer/s did not want to be found out, and still don't want that to happen.
     
  10. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I think I might be a Cluster B. And I'm damn proud of it.
     
  11. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    My thoughts

    Thank you, Dr. Bea.

    This is the way I see it:

    So many of us are fascinated with this case because it deals with the shallow nature of immature souls. We simply cannot understand people, such as the Ramsey's, who surround themselves with puff and frill. In the midst of crisis, they tend to hide under the clock of darkness, while tearfully declaring themselves "victims."

    The fact that so many misguided people are willing to shield the Rams from the slings and arrows of civil justice is what propels this case along the rocky road of delusional Oz.

    They continue to wallow in their own inflated egos. They walk the walk of hypocrisy. They talk the talk of deranged minds, in a wasteland of values lost.

    With each passing day, the little murdered girl, JonBenet, fades further into the background, until she eventually becomes merely figments of our imaginations. We cannot consciously think about her too much, as it is too painful. The killers, I believe, do not think about her at all.

    The killers have become cocoons, upon a dead tree of moral apathy. Threads from their cocoons are attached to every citizen who turns a blind eye to justice.

    I have enjoyed reading every post on this wonderful thread. Thank you, Dr. Bea.

    Greenleaf
     
  12. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Eloquent, Greenleaf, so perfectly said.

    You are right when you say we can't think about JonBenet too much because if we did we might not be able to function through our day. If we really thought hard about that night, even more than 5 years later, we could still start crying. I know I would.
    Thank you Greenleaf.

    Bob congratulations on being a Cluster B. It's a lofty goal to attain. You should be proud.

    Me? I am just a plain cluster...day in and day out.

    Tricia
     
  13. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    Much thanks to Dr. Bea

    And GOOOOOOO BobC! Without Cluster B, the world would be have no theatre. Goodbye Broadway, Greek classics, Tennessee Williams.... How dull. Even Jesus would get short shrift. From one Drama Queen to another.... ;)

    But I still don't have an answer to my question, which is what is the pathology of the person who GARROTED JonBenet? The alleged "accident" is not proven to be an accident at all, by the way. It's just speculation as to how that head blow happened.

    What is PROVEN is that JonBenet WAS strangled to death by the ligature found on her neck. The petechial hemorrhages running above and below it are proof of that. The petechial hemorrhages present on her inner organs also comfirms she was strangled to death. The head blow was some component of the attack on her, and I can see this could have come from rage if it was the impetus for a "coverup" that involved then strangling JonBenet and inserting something into her vagina to simulate molestation.

    So my question still stands: what kind of pathology does a person possess to garrote and penetrate a six year old child? Cold, calculating, took nerves to cut the cord at some significant length, make a noose with knot, break a paintbrush in two places, tie on the broken brush as a handle feature, and pull that handle until the child was dead, somehow restraining her body for counterforce to create tension on the cord. And at some point, either shortly before, during, or very close to death, the head blow happened.

    If it was a parent who did this, what kind of pathology existed to allow that person to compose him/herself after some "accident" to take a breathing, though injured, child and end her life like that?

    If someone other than a parent, another family member or family friend, what was the pathology?

    You see, if I accidently hurt my child, I don't care what the reason, I would be so frantic to get help for her I cannot imagine even thinking in terms of consequences to me, beyond how on earth I'd live if she wasn't alright.

    So, that would probably describe some kind of pathology of my own inner mental workings.

    What I cannot fathom is what pathology was in place that night that drove the killer to garrote and murder a six year old child. If it was a murder triggered by a raging accident, what kind of person then takes total control of that rage and performs a cold murder on a helpless child, complete with enough components of coverup to keep the event of that night from being discovered for almost six years?

    That's what I want to know. And that's what probably keeps us here, years later.

    Because, Dr. Bea, that killer is still OUT THERE, as John and Patsy love to point out themselves on national TV.

    This is a classic murder case. It has all the elements of an epic tragedy. Powerful family, horrifying murder, money, politics, and the Southern Gothic drama queen herself at the center: Patsy.

    It's a cliff-hanger that has us all still on the edge of our seats, waiting for the next episode. Will Patsy beat cancer yet again? Will the Ramseys finally be forced to take the stand in a court of law? Will we ever see the evidence that exists in this case? Will the people who know things critical to this case ever speak out, or has the Ram's money silenced them forever? Will these poor rich people ever have to actually move out of their million dollar homes, as they so often tell us, or is this just another play for sympathy?

    And more important: will this killer ever have to answer for the murder of JonBenet? Most important: will this killer kill again?

    Greenleaf, that was downright beautiful writing.
     
  14. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Hi Mjenn,

    Like Dr. Bea said it wasn't the murder itself but the behavior afterward where personality types would come into play.

    For now let's say it was, without a doubt Patsy. I happen to think this is true but for those of you who don't please just play along.

    I am not even close to being an esteemed professional like Dr. Bea or Dr. Cynical. I am totally guessing here.

    Mjenn to put the garrote in Patsy's hand you have to believe some sort of accident happened and Patsy, thinking JonBenet was either so close to death or was going to die no matter what,
    took pains to cover up her involvement.

    The type B Cluster, (let's call it the BobC cluster shall we haha)
    lacks empathy. If you believe Patsy to be a true, hard core Narcissist and a Histrionic then what was done after the murder makes perfect sense.

    The Narcissist would want to make sure NOTHING pointed to her as being the murderer. It's all about her. Not what she did to her daughter. It's about making sure no one ever finds out she is responsible. Therefore she creates an over the top outrages scene that she knows no one could ever think she was capable of. A true blue Narcissist. Make sure, even in people's wildest imaginations, no one would think she did this. Now the Narcissist can keep up the appearances of the perfect person. Even better now the whole event can be about HER loss and Her dealing with it. The Narcissist even invites and audience over to watch, to give her attention.

    If you look at Patsy as a hard core Narcissist then you can easily put the garrote in her hand.

    MJenn think about this. You are questioning the above scenario. You are doing exactly what I believe Patsy wanted to accomplish. How could a mother do this?

    Remember this is not about the murder. It's about making DAMN SURE nobody could ever think Patsy could do this.

    Add to that the note which is totally histrionic among many other things and you have a very believable scenario in which Patsy is the killer. It's the only one that makes sense to me.

    Dr. Bea is out this weekend. Dr Cynical is, well, Cynical and will try and check in.

    Keep in mind these are just my opinions and I take no responsibility for them..:):)
     
  15. MJenn

    MJenn Member

    I understand, Tricia

    But no, I'm not convinced Patsy was the killer beyond a reasonable doubt. Not alone.

    I'm not saying that is impossible. I'm not even saying that I don't believe a mother could have done all this.

    All I'm saying is I need the SCIENCE to back it up. I need the evidence and the proof that Patsy did it.

    No, psychology is not proof. But there is such a thing as a profile CREATED BY THE CRIME SCENE. What was done to the victim? What was done to the body? Etc.

    That's what I'm talking about. I just wondered if Dr. Bea or Dr. Cynical has any opinion about the pathology revealed by the crime, the evidence. Not what we speculate as being what happened because of our own interpretations. Which I'm not putting down. It's all we have.

    Just looking for another professional viewpoint on this that is unbiased, uninvested. That's all.

    But I do ask a lot, I know, so I have no expectations. Anything is appreciated, and nothing is expected. :)
     
  16. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Mjenn if you could just blindly go along with everything I say then your life would be so much easier :) :)

    I will try and get in touch with Dr. Cynical during the week. See if I can get her on the forum to help with your question. She would have more experience and be able to help you with your question than Dr. Bea I would guess.

    Thanks everyone for your warm comments to Dr. Bea. I know she appreciates it and she really does enjoy the forum.
     
  17. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, Tricia and MJenn

    It's nice to know that my posts are read.
    Thank you.
    GL
     
  18. Pybird

    Pybird Member

    Thanks to all posters

    This is a great thread.
     
  19. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    Now that's funny

    GL says:

    It's nice to know that my posts are read.
    Thank you.

    RR says: We Want More!
    Thank you.
     
  20. LurkerXIV

    LurkerXIV Moderator

    The Face of Evil

    The crimes committed against JonBenet Ramsey are symbolic of all crimes against innocent children which cry out to Heaven for vengeance. The brutality of the acts performed against this frail and vulnerable child are compounded by the suspicion that it was her own parents who killed her, and then covered up in a cold and calculated manner.

    Such a vicious crime perpetrated upon a defenseless child rouses our collective conscience in a way that, for example, the crimes of the Third Reich would. Think of boxcars crammed with small children, separated from their mothers and fathers, sent hundreds of miles over the cold winter landscape of Poland--no heat, no food, no drink, no blankets. The cars arrive at Maidenek camp; the doors are opened; the tangle of tiny frozen corpses, arms and legs entwined in one last desperate human contact is exposed to view. And we see the Face of Evil.

    JonBenet's murder is such a crime. We see those two Faces of Evil everywhere--on the bookjacket of DOI; smiling and nodding on Larry King Live; posing and posturing at a journalism seminar--and it disgusts us that they are still alive and sharing our air on this planet, while the innocent baby is buried in a cold grave in Marietta. We are here to see that they eventually pay for their crime against humanity; to dog them and track them like Weisenthal tracked the Nazi killers of innocent babes; to see at least one of them brought before the courts of juctice as the SS men were brought before the Tribunal at Nuremberg.

    It may take years, but we will persist. Some may deem this a futile endeavor, but we will not give up.

    JonBenet, we will see your death avenged.
     
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