Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 49 to 60 of 60
  1. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Austin (Metro area), TX
    Posts
    3,761

    Default Woman charged with burning daughter, locking her in cellar closet

    WARNING: extremely graphic!

    Wednesday, February 11, 2004 Posted: 7:50 AM EST (1250 GMT)


    PITTSBURGH, Pennsylvania (AP) -- A woman was charged with beating her 7-year-old adopted daughter with a dog chain and keys, burning her wrists on a stove, dousing her naked body with bleach, then locking the girl inside a closet in a coal cellar with a burning furnace filter, police said.

    The girl was apparently not injured by the fire, police said. She was in stable condition at Children's Hospital Tuesday night.

    Debra Liberman, 50, was arraigned earlier in the day on charges including assault with a deadly weapon, attempted homicide, and arson with threat of death.
    ...snip

    The girl told police the alleged abuse had occurred overnight.

    Liberman's son is being cared for by another person, whom police didn't identify.

    Liberman was jailed on $1 million bail. A preliminary hearing scheduled for February 20.



    http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast....ap/index.html
    Never let the children, Elders, the sick, or the infirm be exploited.


    "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines." Oliver Goldsmith


    Let's bring all our missing and military home safely!


    All of my thoughts written here are my constitutionally protected opinion.

    I reject any form of government in which the opinion of the village idiot is given the same weight as the opinion of Aristotle. (author unknown)

    ©

  2. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Austin (Metro area), TX
    Posts
    3,761

    Default Mother charged in 2 kids' drownings

    Tribune staff reports
    Published June 22, 2004, 3:27 PM CDT

    A Northwest Side mother was charged today with the deaths of her two children, found drowned in a bathtub by firefighters called to their home to put out a kitchen fire.

    Abby Grason, 23, of the 5600 block of West Carmen Avenue in the city's Jefferson Park neighborhood, allegedly admitted to investigators she killed her children "because they would not have a good life with her," police said at a news conference this afternoon to discuss the case.

    Grason was charged with two counts of first-degree murder and arson after the Cook County medical examiner's office determined that Sandra and Isaac Younan, ages 4 and 2, died of drowning, and that their deaths were homicides, officials said.
    ...snip

    Police said after killing her children about 5 a.m. Monday, Grason started a fire in a kitchen microwave oven by putting two aerosol cans in it. She then went next door to a neighbor, rang the bell and asked that someone call 911.

    The woman was sitting outside her townhouse when firefighters arrived and allegedly did not tell them her children were in the home.

    Firefighters extinguished the fire quickly. They then found the children face down in a tub in a second-floor bathroom.

    Attempts to revive the children as they were taken to Our Lady of the Resurrection Medical Center proved unsuccessful. They were pronounced dead shortly after arriving at the hospital.

    The children lived in the townhouse with their mother and maternal grandmother, police said. Their father lives in Arizona.
    ...snip


    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...l=chi-news-hed
    Never let the children, Elders, the sick, or the infirm be exploited.


    "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines." Oliver Goldsmith


    Let's bring all our missing and military home safely!


    All of my thoughts written here are my constitutionally protected opinion.

    I reject any form of government in which the opinion of the village idiot is given the same weight as the opinion of Aristotle. (author unknown)

    ©

  3. #51

    Default

    I meant to post this a while ago,

    Mother convicted in vicious death of toddler
    Failed to protect son from killer
    Crown seeks 10-year sentence
    BARBARA BROWN
    TORSTAR NEWS SERVICE

    HAMILTON—The crown will seek at least 10 years in penitentiary for a woman convicted of aiding and abetting a former boyfriend in the vicious beating death of her 14-month-old son.

    Carmelita Willie gasped as the jury foreman pronounced her guilty yesterday of manslaughter. The jury deliberated about 10 hours over two days before finding the mother failed in her duty to protect baby Maliek from Carlos Clarke's brutality in September, 1997.

    She began to weep when Justice Thomas Lofchik remanded her in custody until sentencing on June 23. Willie, 30, who worked as a personal-support worker at a retirement home, had been out on bail since shortly after she and Clarke were arrested in March, 1998. Clarke, also 30, is serving a life sentence with no chance of parole for 20 years after being convicted last year of Maliek's second-degree murder.

    Maliek's skull was fractured in three places and he died of massive brain damage. The baby also had a severely fractured leg, a large gash and deep bruising to his face and his neck was a mass of excoriated skin and open lesions.

    It appeared the child, who was immobile in a body cast, had been restrained by the neck with a ligature.

    [BProsecutors do not believe Willie inflicted injuries on her child, but rather that she enabled and encouraged the abuse by not reporting Clarke to authorities and by deceiving home-care nurses and child-protection workers who were involved with the family.

    "Maliek deserved to be protected and his mother let him down," said assistant crown attorney Anthony Leitch. "For this she is guilty of manslaughter."

    Willie and Clark still face charges of aggravated assault on Willie's oldest child, then 2 years and 9 months old.

    The boy, who is Clarke's biological son, was diagnosed with traumatic pancreatitis from an alleged blow to the abdomen. He spent 10 days in hospital shortly before Maliek was killed.

  4. #52

    Default

    Baby badly battered

    By CPHAMILTON -- A battered toddler suffered such traumatic brain injuries in the days leading up to his death that he would have been in a coma for 12 to 18 hours before his mother brought him to the hospital, a forensic pathologist testified yesterday.

    Baby Maliek was not breathing and had no pulse when his 24-year-old mother carried him in a blanket into the emergency department at Hamilton General Hospital on Sept. 29, 1997. A team of doctors and nurses attempted to revive the 14-month-old child for more than 20 minutes but pronounced him dead at 6:51 p.m.

    Maliek was in a body cast from chest to toe, having suffered a broken leg weeks earlier, and was covered in suspicious cuts, scrapes and bruises. Within 10 minutes of being pronounced dead, a doctor contacted the Children's Aid Society and the Hamilton police child-abuse branch.

    Dr. Chitra Rao, who performed an autopsy the next morning, said the baby's skull was fractured in three places. Microscopic examination revealed the injuries to his skull and brain would have occurred within 12 to 18 hours of death.

    Rao told a Superior Court jury that the boy, who would have been barely conscious if not completely comatose, suffered further injuries to his face and head just four to six hours before his death.

    The woman's former boyfriend, Carlos Clarke, 29, has pleaded not guilty to Baby Maliek's first-degree murder. The unnamed mother is also charged with murder and will be tried later this year.

    Mother on trial for baby's death
    May 26, 2004

    HAMILTON - A woman charged with manslaughter in her baby's death was more interested in protecting her boyfriend from police than her child, a Crown attorney charged yesterday.

    Tony Leitch confronted Carmelita Willie in the witness box, accusing her of lying when she brought the lifeless body of 14-month-old Maliek to hospital on Sept. 29, 1997. At the time, Ms. Willie said her child had been in the care of a babysitter and that she hadn't seen her boyfriend in a week, the trial has heard.

    But surveillance cameras showed Carlos Clarke enter the hospital. He was convicted of second-degree murder last year and is serving a life sentence.

  5. #53

    Default

    Tue, June 22, 2004


    Parents murdered 4 children

    WARSAW, Poland -- A husband and wife were sentenced to life in prison yesterday for murdering their four children, whose mummified bodies were found in barrels at their family's apartment. The couple -- a 30-year-old man who has been identified only as Krzysztof N. and his 31-year-old wife, Jadwiga N. -- were charged after police in the city of Lodz found the barrels in a closet last year. They contained the bodies of five-year-old twin boys, killed about five years ago, and of two newborn babies.

    The couple's remaining child, a 12-year-old girl, has been placed in an orphanage.

    A district court in Lodz ruled that the couple had killed their children because they considered them a burden, giving one twin an overdose of sedatives, denying the other treatment for an illness and strangling one of the newborns. The court was unable to determine whether the other infant was born alive.

    "You don't deserve the name of mother and father," said Judge Marek Chmiela.

  6. #54

    Default

    One of the most argued points in the JonBenet Ramsey case are “Why would loving parents suddenly decide to murder their child?” In reality their thoughts are an unknown. However, their actions are well-documented.

    That’s a fair question. Loving parents would not make such a decision. However, loving parents could very well be the source of an accident. The word murder enters into many articles. Some simply state that “JonBenet was found dead in the basement of her home. Her parents deny any involvement”. There is no proof that this was not an accident. As a matter of fact this is exactly what Henry Lee says:

    "As I have indicated before in this case, the manner of this death is still a questionable issue," Lee said Friday. "Is it really a homicide or an accidental death? We really don't know." Dr. Henry Lee Source: http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/st...il03.asp?ID=29

    So if we are of the belief that the Ramseys are responsible for the cover up of an accidentally inflicted head injury to JonBenet we have to try to understand just how this went from the accidental initial injury and made the journey to the ransom note to the staging of JonBenet’s body to redirect the investigation away from themselves.

    The claims of a media bias is in stark contrast to a willingness to appear on national tv; the claims of the desire to do everything in their power to help find their daughter’s killer is in stark contrast to the conditions and scripting of interviews; the secluded phone records, medical records, clothing; the finger pointing; the out and out lying about how active JonBenet was in the child pageants.

    In reality we don’t know much at all about the history of the Ramseys, we do however have a record of their actions since JonBenet’s death.

    However we do know that JonBenet suffered a severe blow to the back of her head. We do know that there was a ransom note that in itself reveals the most likely author. We do know that any absolute evidence belongs to the Ramsey’s themselves. We do know Patsy Ramsey’s history of education and participation in beauty contests. We do know some of Nedra Paugh’s personality. We do know some of John Ramsey’s history of being an analytical thinker, a man who built a multi-million dollar company which he started in his garage. We do know how he considered his marriage to Patsy as her being his Jacque Kennedy. We can concur from the records that John financially cared for his family, but left the child rearing and day-to-day decisions up to Patsy. We do know from Patsy’s own words that although John did not put a halt to the pageant life that he had some reservations about it. We know that Patsy was driven to perfection in all areas of her life, and that public perception was extremely important to her. We know that JonBenet became Patsy’s project.

    Let’s journey from Patsy as a child and later influence. In order to understand her actions we need to understand her psyche. The quotes are from someone who has assisted me in coming to the understanding that conditional on Patsy’s environment as a child that Patsy could have indeed committed the acts upon JonBenet the night of her death. The crime scene and the post death actions further support this theory about Patsy’s psychology and personality.

    Throughout all of this I have been able to find documentation of Patsy’ behavior that corresponds to the theorem.

    “Although physical and\or psychological abuse may be a
    contributing factor in some cases, it is not necessary to a
    psychology of low self esteem.

    Suppose a child is brought up in an environment in which he or
    she is not much skilled in the areas held as high in value by
    those to whom he or she looks for self value. The child sees self as unattractive, unlovable and near worthless. This impression may or may not be the valuations of "others", but this is what the child feels, so to the child, it is reality.

    This emotional impression is so deep, constant and intense that the child feels that he or she literally cannot live with it.
    Keep in mind, this is not a matter of conscious awareness, but of the child's emotional reaction as attached to self value.

    If the child looks to "others" for self value and gives
    credibility to what is believed to be a severe negative valuation of self, a "breaking point" is reached. In a "survival reaction", the child attempts to discount the valuation of "others" as invalid, as not true.”
    * Nedra Paugh, Patsy’s mother, had little tolerance or understanding toward imperfection. She also showed intolerance for a child not being willing to participate in her (Nedra’s) plans.

    *Pg. 191 PMPT
    “Well Judith, we’re just getting JonBenet into a few pageants.”

    “Why would you do something like that?”

    “You know, she’s not too young to get started.”

    “and what if JonBenet isn’t willing?” I asked. “What if she said, ‘I’m not going to do it?’ How would you respond to that?”

    “Oh, Judith, we would never consider her saying no. We would tell JonBenet, ‘You must do it. You will be a Miss Pageant’ ”.
    It was sort of eerie. A little scary. The inevitability of it-from grandmother to mother and now to daughter.
    Judith Philips from PMPT

    * Pg. 195-196 PMPT.
    “Patsy was growing anxious about High Peaks, the school JonBenet & Burke were going to. There were children in some classes who would never be self-sufficient, physically handicapped, but they were being mainstreamed into the classroom. They have a right to be educated, but there were these other intelligent little boys and girls who were growing up to make a living, pay taxes, and they were sitting and waiting. The teacher told me her first obligation was to those handicapped children. And you just wonder how much time in the course of a day is spent on the children who need to be learning so that they can take their place in society. I know the teacher wanted to do more, but there was only one of her and an aide.”
    Nedra Paugh from PMPT

    “This emotional exclusion of "others" by denouncing their values as not "true values" sets a condition of non recognition of the individual values of "others." Face and form remain to mentally separate one human entity from another, but the psychological and emotional person does not exist in the mind of the child. They are as "objects" to be fitted into the "child's world" or else be rejected as having no value.”

    Who fit? Who was rejected? Why did they fit? Why were they rejected?

    JonBenet took Patsy’s attention and Burke was left behind. (The Ramsey’s housekeeper/babysitter)

    Judith Philips was told you are either with us or against us. (told to her by Barb Fernie)

    The White’s were tossed aside. (although John denied this there is much documentation to the contrary)

    Bill McReynolds was tossed aside and John & Patsy ridiculed his demeanor in their interviews with the police.(from the interviews in the NE book)

    Patsy’s remarks about Fleet & Priscilla White and their children. (Patsy’s statements in the Police Files NE book)[/b]

    I can produce the documentation for the above statements if someone feels it is necessary, however for the sake of brevity I only mention where I found the source.

    “This philosophy, psychology and attitude becomes set and is evidenced beyond the home and beyond childhood. This person has isolated self in such degree that he or she is incapable of empathy. He or she cannot mentally project self into the emotional position of another person. Needless to say, harmonious interpersonal relationships within this psychology are non existent”.

    “You may generally recognize the forgoing as a description of
    Patsy Ramsey. What you don't know is that the foregoing was
    written long before I heard of Patsy Ramsey.”

    “Focus on "This person has isolated self in such degree that he or she is incapable of empathy. He or she cannot mentally project self into the emotional position of another person. Needless to say, harmonious interpersonal relationships within this psychology are non existent."
    *Additionally noted to me:
    “Persons with the psychology of absence of capacity for empathy always suffer from a feeling of low self worth. The compensation is to build self up by putting others down. This is hardly isolated to Patsy Ramsey, but its constancy along with other behavior is indicative of a severe condition.”*
    In the following statement keep in mind the content and length of the ransom note. Also keep in mind that the author of the note appeared to have the need to micro manage and overstate their case. They became the giver of pleasure and pain. I like you and I hate you all rolled into one. I like you but you made me do this. I like you but if something bad happens it’s not my fault, it is yours – you made me do it. I need to state this in words that John Ramsey will understand. I don’t know you but I know terms you would be familiar with and thus know that I am serious about my threats. I know you have $118,000.

    Also keep in mind that many of the words and demands in the ransom note are the words and demands from movies and books that John Ramsey was familiar with.

    * Additionally noted to me:
    “Also keep in mind what your thoughts were when you first read or heard the contents of this note. The chances are you concluded that you yourself would not have written such a note. In this realization you can see how far removed your thinking is from the note writer. In this you might see how much different the writer’s values and psychology is removed from your own.”*

    “You can confirm this for yourself by a hypothesis: Suppose you want to stage a crime scene of which a ransom note is an intricate part. What is your thinking in regard to preparing the note? Your objective is to convince others that the note is authentic. How do you do this? Wouldn't you mentally project yourself into the minds of those you expect to examine the note?
    Would you not try to anticipate the reaction of others to the
    note you propose to write? Would you not try to stick with the
    "norm" of ransom notes to avoid raising red flags?


    Notice that all of these elements are missing in the Ramsey case "ransom note." This person is not thinking like you at all is
    he\she? Why not? There is no anticipating of what others will
    think. The note is simply a script isolated to the mind of the
    writer with no consideration of response beyond this. What's
    going on here? Why is your approach to writing a ransom note so different from that of the Ramsey case note writer?

    Ans. ABSENCE OF THE CAPACITY FOR EMPATHY.”
    Keeping with the theme of the following statement, Patsy would have perceived that the ransom note would appear to be valid. Her penchant for drama, order and control come through. Her inability to assimilate the thinking of others would lead to this “War and Peace” of ransom notes. I have never read that Patsy expressed upon reflection that this note was extraordinary in style and content. The very thing that raised red flags to the police and a great many others did not have the same effect on Patsy.


    “I won't go into minute detail of all the elements that create this condition, but this psychological condition is the central directive of the person who unknowingly suffers from this condition. There are actually many in this category, but with many individual variations. Patsy Ramsey is a very severe case.

    When I read the note and saw the isolation and absence of the capacity for empathy, by logical association, I had a clear look into the mind or Patsy Ramsey. A constant condition of this psychology is a deeply seated anger; a volcano of emotions just waiting to be triggered to erupt into rage and violence.”
    (Lou Smit’s own statement that anyone is capable of murder given the right circumstances.)

    “Now focus on "Needless to say, harmonious interpersonal relationships within this psychology are non existent."

    I won’t go into the why of this at this time. Suffice it to say
    the anger directed toward John in the note is no surprise; nor is the rage that resulted in the death of JonBenet. Their behavior afterwards is also indicative of the psychological condition of regarding others as "objects." All the physical evidence and the psychology of Patsy Ramsey create a seamless scenario of guilt.”

  7. #55

    Default

    cont.

    Serious questions:
    Why have many of their friends not come to their defense? Do they suspect something more happened than what the Ramseys were willing to tell the police?

    Neither of the Ramseys treated this as a kidnapping:
    John didn’t report the open window or the car in the alley.

    Page 20-21 DOI
    By this time several officers are dusting with black fingerprint powder. There is a lot of movement around the house, with officers carrying out various assignments, although it is hard to know who’s issuing the orders. It doesn’t occur to me that we should be contained in one area to keep us from contaminating any potential evidence. The chief of police, Tom Koby, will later say they didn’t treat the house as a “crime scent” because they thought it was “only a kidnapping.”

    I look at my watch again and worry because the FBI hasn’t shown up yet. No matter where their offices are, they should be here by now. Where are they? What are they doing? We need more help. A new sense of desperation wells up inside of me because I am sure the FBI could help get JonBenet back. I urgently want more resources but don’t know how to make it happen.

    Got to do something, I think. Anything. Whatever will get JonBenet back.

    Sometime that morning, I remember a day back in the summer when I had left my keys inside and was locked out of the house. To get in, I broke one of the panes in a basement window; then I reached in and released the latch, so I could climb inside. I think about the basement now. I jump up and hurry down there. That entry place needs to be looked at, I tell myself. I move down the basement hall and find the window. The pane is still broken, and the window is open, with a large old Samsonite suitcase sitting right under it. Odd, I think. This doesn’t look right. This suitcase is not normally kept here.

    Maybe this is how the kidnapper got in and out of our house. The window ledge is about five feet off the floor, so a person would need something to stand on in order to get up and out.

    I didn’t look further after finding the open window, but I carefully close it before going back upstairs.

    John Ramsey DOI
    Does anyone else find it just a little more than odd that on the one hand John feels "That entry place needs to be looked at," - there are officers upstairs dusting for fingerprints - YET "I didn’t look further after finding the open window, but I carefully close it before going back upstairs." - he didn't tell the officers about what he "discovered"? He keeps this bit of information to himself?

    In my opinion the above statement says that John Ramsey knew that no kidnapping has occurred.

    {*Additionally noted to me:
    “The Ramsey have NO friends; perhaps, many social acquaintances, but NO friends. When push comes shove, there is no one they wouldn't throw in front of the bus if they thought if would take attention away from their guilt.

    Many persons, if not most, establish friendships in elementary school, high school, or later that last a lifetime. This does not happen to those with the psychology of absence of the capacity for empathy. These persons with intolerance for individual personal preferences, constant criticism, insensitive remarks and put downs drive all potential friends away without the foggiest notion of how and why. I'm betting that no one can find a long time friendship between Patsy Ramsey and another person of either gender during any time period of her life.”*
    Quotes:“Everybody agrees that it was not a sophisticated killer who committed this crime,” Schiller says. “So by doing things wrong, they fashioned the perfect murder because all the wrong things are so confusing that it comes together and it’s very difficult to find out.

    "This was a perfect murder by accident, not by design.”
    Lawrence Schiller Dateline interview October 12, 1999 Source: http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/1012199...ondateline.htm

    In the book, Schiller said Mrs. Ramsey was "polite and charming" during the first two days of the June interview with Haney and an attorney working on the case.

    On the third day, Mrs. Ramsey became "tough." At one point, she raised her hand across the table in front of Haney's face and said, "You're going down the wrong road," Schiller said.

    Case detectives believed Haney reached "the real Patsy."

    "She had exhibited the hard side of her persona. A side capable of bringing harm to her daughter," Schiller wrote.

    He also detailed police interviews with the Ramseys' former housekeeper, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, who told them JonBenét's body was wrapped in a blanket that either was on her bed or in a washer-dryer unit in a cabinet outside the girl's room.

    "Only someone who knew which washer and dryer the Ramseys used for JonBenét's sheets and blankets would know where to find the blanket if it wasn't on the bed," Schiller wrote.

    Source: “Book offers insight into Patsy” Denver Post Staff and Wire Reports
    http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon0215.htm
    Diane Hallis, who worked at Access Graphics, recalls that John Ramsey would look out the third floor windows of the offices trying to spot reporters. "He hated them," she says. "His anger was directed toward the media, but never toward the killer. He never mentioned the killer."
    Source: http://thehistoryvault.tripod.com/02...gfrenzy-bw.htm
    Page 20-21 DOI
    By this time several officers are dusting with black fingerprint powder. There is a lot of movement around the house, with officers carrying out various assignments, although it is hard to know who’s issuing the orders. It doesn’t occur to me that we should be contained in one area to keep us from contaminating any potential evidence. The chief of police, Tom Koby, will later say they didn’t treat the house as a “crime scent” because they thought it was “only a kidnapping.”

    I look at my watch again and worry because the FBI hasn’t shown up yet. No matter where their offices are, they should be here by now. Where are they? What are they doing? We need more help. A new sense of desperation wells up inside of me because I am sure the FBI could help get JonBenet back. I urgently want more resources but don’t know how to make it happen.

    Got to do something, I think. Anything. Whatever will get JonBenet back.

    Sometime that morning, I remember a day back in the summer when I had left my keys inside and was locked out of the house. To get in, I broke one of the panes in a basement window; then I reached in and released the latch, so I could climb inside. I think about the basement now. I jump up and hurry down there. That entry place needs to be looked at, I tell myself. I move down the basement hall and find the window. The pane is still broken, and the window is open, with a large old Samsonite suitcase sitting right under it. Odd, I think. This doesn’t look right. This suitcase is not normally kept here.

    Maybe this is how the kidnapper got in and out of our house. The window ledge is about five feet off the floor, so a person would need something to stand on in order to get up and out.

    I didn’t look further after finding the open window, but I carefully close it before going back upstairs.

    Quote:

    DOI Page 16
    The note said the kidnappers will be watching. Maybe I can catch them looking at us. I race upstairs and find a pair of binoculars. I start looking up and down the street.

    There's a strange vehicle in the alley behind the Barnhills', I note.

    After several minutes of watching the vehicle, nothing happens to I finally go back downstairs.
    ABCNEWS.com's Buck Wolf
    You say that you are beginning your hunt for the real killers by looking at the people close to you. Has that caused you to be estranged by your friends or family?

    John Ramsey
    That is a misunderstanding. We actually have been conducting our own investigation since early 1997. The point that was made was that any investigation needs to start at the center of the crime and work outward. We know, for instance, that our neighborhood was never thoroughly canvassed by the police. We have told the police from the begining that we don't believe we know anyone that could be this evil. But what we were advocating was that we need to start over, go back and canvass the neighborhood for information and work outward.

    ABCNEWS.com's Buck Wolf
    Vicki Banner and others ask, "What organizations, foundations, charities will benefit from the proceeds of your book?"

    John Ramsey
    The proceeds of our book will be used to pay legal expenses and will then go to the foundation we set up to honor JonBenet. That foundation will focus its efforts in the future on protecting children against predators, through legislation and heightening and awareness of potential predators that may be in our midst.

    ABCNEWS.com's Buck Wolf
    You say you want to find the real killer. But you declined to exhume your daughter to find out such things as whether a stun gun was used against her. Can you defend that decision, when experts say that there's a good chance they could still test for stun gun marks?

    John Ramsey
    Experts have told us conclusively that a stun gun was used in the murder of our daughter. As her father, who had just painfully laid her to rest, I could not make the decision to disturb her. That is not a decision that a father should be asked to make.

    Source: http://abcnews.go.com/onair/DailyNew...amsey0320.html

  8. #56

    Default

    Cont.

    I suppose to start out I think Patsy was on the brink of total exhaustion this night. She pushed herself to keep up the image of the strong, in control woman with the perfect children, husband, marriage. Although one of the arguments was that Patsy had never shown and predisposition for anger after reading some of the following I would suggest that she had a personality primed for reaching the edge. I do think it was absolutely an accident. And I do think that Patsy would never be able to let anyone know that she had caused such a horrible thing to happen. I think she had her own demons to fight, and the way the world perceived her was one of them. It's my opinion that she panicked and tried to cover up what she had done. The stigma of causing her child's death would have been something Patsy would never tollerate - so the cover-up - no one would ever know.

    Page 58: NE
    ST: Did you, John or Burke have any ill effects, uh, after eating dinner at the Whites in coming home? Any feelings of intoxication or drowsiness?
    PR: I, I remember just being really tired. I don’t know that I was drowsy, but you know, it had been a big day. I was tired and I was anxious to get to bed.

    Page 61 NE
    ST: …And was everybody on this same page about going to Charlevoix as far as, uh, will and wanting to go? There was no dissension in the rands that, “I don’t want to go” or “she doesn’t want to go?” Everybody was looking forward to this trip?
    PR: Well, I mean, we were. I wasn’t real crazy about going ‘cause I just thought it was cramming a lot of stuff in there, you know. I told John I didn’t really want to go. I’d rather, ‘cause, Christmas, going to Charlevoix, then going to , it just seemed like a lot, you know, but then we decided as a family to go and, you know, been looking forward to it. We never had Christmas up there before so I called the florist and had them put up lights and a wreath and flowers and all that ‘cause Melinda and Stewart were coming up and John Andrew.

    Page 144:
    TH: Okay. So we are still at the ironing board and this little red outfit. What do you do with that, how long does that take?
    PR: Just, I don’t know, just a few minutes. And I don’t know, I can’t remember what I was doing. I just remember I was trying to get this bag ready to go to the lake, I had two suitcases…of the children’s things, I was trying to get ready, because when we came back from the lake we were going on to Disney and the Big Red Boat.
    TH: You’re going to go to Charlevoix, am I saying that right?
    PR: Charlevoix.
    TH: You’re going there the 26th at seven in the morning. How long are you going to stay there?
    PR: Just a couple of days, I think, because we were due back, I think we were supposed to leave on the Big Red Boat on my birthday, which is the 29th. So would that – was that Saturday?
    TH: I think Christmas was – 25th was a Wednesday, and so Sunday would have been the 29th approximately.
    PR: Well, somewhere around there. I just didn’t have very much time when we got back. So I was prepacking stuff here.
    TH: Let me just keep you on this. The Big Red Boat thing on the 29th, what time were you going to leave for that, do you recall?
    PR: We had airline flights out of Denver…we didn’t go from Charlevoix, we had to fly back from Charlevoix to Denver to take a commercial flight to Orlando.
    TH: And do you know when you would have come back from Charlevoix?
    PR: Just like the day before.

    PMPT Page 130-131 – Schiller quotes Mike Glynn, an employee of Access Graphics & friend of John Ramsey

    John Ramsey seemed like an introvert. He was just nice and shy. He never wavered in what he was like, and you could tell he was a deep thinking guy. I never saw him ruffled by any circumstances. Sometimes, internally, he must have been. One time we were negotiating with Sun Microsystems, our largest vendor, and the frustrations of dealing with the games played in the computer industry got to John. Yet he stayed level-headed. He steered away from confrontation.
    Jump
    While John was low-key, Patsy was off the scale as an extrovert. Once John made a mildly sarcastic remark: “Patsy spent more money renovating the house than I did buying it.” As I got to know John better, I saw the impact of his older daughter’s death on him, Beth was her name. He was just eaten up inside. He read a lot to try to come to terms with it. It changed him.

    PMPT: Page 71-72 – Kit Andre, a dance instructor who worked with JonBenet.

    Patsy told Kit that JonBenet participated in pageants and she herself had been in pageants when she was younger. She’d brought an audiotape of music – “I want to Be a Cowboy’s Sweetheart.”

    There was no time for JonBenet to learn the basics of ballet or top, but Patsy said they needed a song and dance by summer. “And whatever it takes, I’ll pay for it,” Patsy said. Private lessons were $100 each, Kit told her. That was no problem, Patsy replied.

    Jump..(Patsy does not want to wait in the reception room while Kit works with JonBenet. She wants JonBenet to improve her singing. She schedules JonBenet or three lessons a week. She’s determined that JonBenet would be ready for the summer pageants.)

    “It will be better if I’m here,” she insisted. “I’ve done this before.”

    (Kit discovered that JonBenet had a wonderful personality – learned gestures etc, she felt she was smart and talented. )

    But she also understood that JonBenet was performing because her mother wanted her to, not because she wanted to. JonBenet wasn’t one of those kids who had seen someone dance and decided, That’s what I want to do.

    Kit Andre: I’ve looked at that pageant video several times. They make JonBenet look like a clown. Someone else taught her those pseudo-adult movements, the provocative walk, the poses, all of it.
    The pageants were Patsy’s gig. JonBenet was her alter ego. Patsy had the money, she had the costumes, and she had the kid. She could relive her own pageant thing. You got the picture right there. Patsy didn’t have a sense of proportion about how this should fit into her child’s life. What I saw on the pageant video…you don’t do that to a six-year-old. – Kit Andre.

    PMPT Page 95:
    Most pageants include a “Most Photogenic” or “Photo Portfolio” category, where the entrants are judged solely on their photographs. Pasty ddcided it was time for JonBenet to have a portfolio, and Pam Griffin recommended a photographer, Randy Simons, who could make a six-year-old look twinty. When a pageant favored the seductive look, Pam told Patsy, Simons was the best.

    PMPT: PAGE 258 -259 - Linda Wilcox (a Ramsey housekeeper – left in 1994)
    After Patsy finished decorating the house, Burke became her favorite child. She spent all of her time at his school. He was her first project.

    At that time JonBenet was too young to do anything spectacular. She hardly got Patsy’s attention. Suzanne Savage was in charge of her, JonBenet wasn’t in school yet, and her world revolved around adults, whereas Burke’s life revolved around his friends.

    Then, when JonBenet started school, she became Patsy’s second project. The children really were like projects to her. I’m afraid that after JonBenet became Patsy’s focus, she also became her obsession.

    I think that to Patsy, nothing and no one had the right to be imperfect. Everything had to fit Patsy’s image of what it should be. So JonBenet was under immense pressure to fit the image Patsy had of her new project.

    When the police interviewed me, they asked if the kids wet the bed a lot. I said yes. Detective Harmer asked if I thought that was unusual, and I had to say, “Not really. Not at that age.” Burke wore Pull-Ups until he was six, and Jon Benet always wore them. But I also told the police it was curious to me that Burke stopped wetting the bed when he stopped being the focus of Patsy’s attention. And that was when JonBenet became a chronic bed wetter.
    This is just one example of outsiders noticing that the children had a problem with bed wetting, yet Patsy would constantly refer to it as “not a problem” or “no big deal”. She would revert to her being a cancer survivor (again, bringing the topic back to herself).

    I think Patsy was very intolerant of those she felt were not in her class, those who did not meet her idea of acceptable. I think she felt no qualms about trying to manipulate people, was condescending to those she didn’t feel were in her class and didn’t hesitate to turn on the Southern Belle charm and innocence to her advantage.

    PMPT Page 195 – Did Nedra think JonBenet would have fought an intruder? The detectives asked. “I guarantee you” she replied.
    195-196 – Nedra Paugh (Patsy’s mother)
    Patsy was growing anxious about High Peaks, the school JonBenet and Burke were going to. There were children in some classes who would never be self-sufficient, physically handicapped, but they were being mainstreamed into the classroom. They have a right to be educated, but there were these other intelligent little boys and girls who were growing up to make a living, pay taxes, and they were sitting and waiting. The teacher told me her first obligation was to those handicapped children. And you wonder how much time in the course of a day is spent on the children who need to be learning so that they can take their place in society. I know the teacher wanted to do more, but there was only one of her and an aide.

    Page 28-29 NE

    TT: Okay. Patsy, are there any concerns in the neighborhood up there or have there been any concerns in the neighborhood up there…door to door salesman? Any of your neighbors talk about prowlers, anything like that over the last six months?
    PR: Yeah, sometimes children, you know, like a, um, black children. I mean, they don’t look like they’re from my neighborhood or nothing, or look, you know like they’re from Denver and they have candy bars…

    On Pages 24-25-26-27 NE
    Detectives Steve Thomas & Tom Trujillo interview Patsy. They initially ask her to tell them a little about herself. Patsy has not problem recalling her many accomplishments.

    It was all about her.

  9. #57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Little
    Cont.

    I suppose to start out I think Patsy was on the brink of total exhaustion this night. She pushed herself to keep up the image of the strong, in control woman with the perfect children, husband, marriage. Although one of the arguments was that Patsy had never shown and predisposition for anger after reading some of the following I would suggest that she had a personality primed for reaching the edge. I do think it was absolutely an accident. And I do think that Patsy would never be able to let anyone know that she had caused such a horrible thing to happen. I think she had her own demons to fight, and the way the world perceived her was one of them. It's my opinion that she panicked and tried to cover up what she had done. The stigma of causing her child's death would have been something Patsy would never tollerate - so the cover-up - no one would ever know.......
    PMPT Page 195 – Did Nedra think JonBenet would have fought an intruder? The detectives asked. “I guarantee you” she replied.
    195-196 – Nedra Paugh (Patsy’s mother)
    Patsy was growing anxious about High Peaks, the school JonBenet and Burke were going to. There were children in some classes who would never be self-sufficient, physically handicapped, but they were being mainstreamed into the classroom. They have a right to be educated, but there were these other intelligent little boys and girls who were growing up to make a living, pay taxes, and they were sitting and waiting. The teacher told me her first obligation was to those handicapped children. And you wonder how much time in the course of a day is spent on the children who need to be learning so that they can take their place in society. I know the teacher wanted to do more, but there was only one of her and an aide.
    Very powerful reason for Patsy to not want to end up with one of "those" children if she accidentally injured her daughter.

  10. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

    Default

    Little : I think Patsy was very intolerant of those she felt were not in her class, those who did not meet her idea of acceptable. I think she felt no qualms about trying to manipulate people, was condescending to those she didn’t feel were in her class and didn’t hesitate to turn on the Southern Belle charm and innocence to her advantage.
    Little, This is the truth and nothing but the truth!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sue
    Very powerful reason for Patsy to not want to end up with one of "those" children if she accidentally injured her daughter.
    Sue, It is a powerful reason for Patsy Ramsey to have made sure JonBenét wouldn't end up as a disabled child, because she could never have handled it; therefore she saw justification in ending JonBenét's life.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  12. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1
    Sue, It is a powerful reason for Patsy Ramsey to have made sure JonBenét wouldn't end up as a disabled child, because she could never have handled it; therefore she saw justification in ending JonBenét's life.
    i have a disabled child and I have been the recipient of some of those "looks" from parents like Patsy. The looks full of pity, condescention and revulsion, like they are afraid somehow what is "wrong" with my child might rub off and "contaminate" their child. I can see Patsy rationalizing that JB would not want to live life like that.



Similar Threads

  1. "Parents who kill their kids..."
    By koldkase in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: January 7, 2012, 3:17 pm, Sat Jan 7 15:17:55 UTC 2012
  2. John Ramsey's '98 Interview...Things That Were "Strange" or "Out Of Place"
    By AMES in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 119
    Last Post: June 19, 2007, 11:51 am, Tue Jun 19 11:51:40 UTC 2007
  3. "South Park," "SNL" & "Mad TV" Ramsey Episodes
    By RiverRat in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: September 2, 2006, 3:54 pm, Sat Sep 2 15:54:35 UTC 2006
  4. Think Parents Couldn't "Do That" to Their Kids?
    By Watching You in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: February 12, 2005, 4:39 pm, Sat Feb 12 16:39:10 UTC 2005
  5. "DNA Clears Parents"
    By BobC in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: January 25, 2005, 8:54 am, Tue Jan 25 8:54:16 UTC 2005

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •