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  1. #13

    Default

    Geraldo became silent at the drop of a hat...or was it at the drop of a threat?

    This, I believe, is where some merit is attributed to the theory of there being several people involved in JBR's death.

    WAY too many people acting in unison...and quietly.

  2. #14

    Default DJ

    How would Bynum know that John needed a high-powered lawyer at 6AM when John's wife had just reported a kidnapping?

  3. #15

    Default Simple, Spade

    Bynum IS a high-powered lawyer. He specializes in corporate law, not criminal. It is common knowledge in legal circles that when something attracting police attention happens in a family, that family will be the first under the umbrella of suspicion, especially if it's related to a child. Bynum is smart enough to have referred JR to the "BEST" criminal defense attorney in CO-Hal Haddon (Haddon and Bynum had at least a professional relationship, and I believe, shared real estate investments, and Boulder ain't that big).

    JR called his attorney and friend, Bynum, at some point and said, "Hey, JonBenet's been kidnapped!" Bynum went into action. It's very common for the wealthy to have corporate lawyers and for those corporate lawyers to make referrals to others outside their own specialties. Happens all the time.

    Not only would the time of that call be interesting, but the gist of that initial conversation too.

  4. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Austin (Metro area), TX
    Posts
    3,761

    Question

    Actually, I am curious what case players were not in bed together to be honest.

    Haddon and Bynum had a least a professional relationship and possible real estate investments.

    Kolby and Susan Stine appear to have a prior connection through The Family Learning Center, which tells us what the Ramseys had to gain by cultivating their friendship after the murder but one still has to wonder why the Stines stood by the Ramseys and even followed them to Atlanta.

    Perhaps Kolby and Stine's prior relationship is what kept Ms. Stine's hiney out of trouble when she was impersonating Beckner - who knows.


    Then we have Smitsit and the horse kisserer... Don't even want to go there. JMH&CPO.
    Never let the children, Elders, the sick, or the infirm be exploited.


    "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines." Oliver Goldsmith


    Let's bring all our missing and military home safely!


    All of my thoughts written here are my constitutionally protected opinion.

    I reject any form of government in which the opinion of the village idiot is given the same weight as the opinion of Aristotle. (author unknown)


  5. #17

    Default DejaNu

    If you believe the Ramsey's story then they had NO need for a lawyer at 6AM. Their daughter was kidnapped and their focus would have been to recover her not cover their own a**. The Ramsey's LIED from the getgo. Don't waste time trying to make their fabrications seem logical.

    Incidentally, Bynums law firm is the largest in Boulder and employs 300+ lawyers, many of whom do criminal defense work. In DOI John talks about being asked by Bynum if Bynum could handle finding legal representation for the R's. The way John tells it, this occured on the 27th. BS

    If you study how this case has been lawyered by both the prosecution and defense you will be well along the road of understanding what is really going on.

  6. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Western OR
    Posts
    971

    Default Yep

    I believe that if those phone records had been released completely and entirely, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The land line comes up incomplete, the cell phone shows was zero activity recorded in December. (At least that is what I recall -- I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.) How likely / realistic does that seem that in the entire month of a major holiday that they would neither make nor receive calls on their cell phone? If nothing else, wouldn't Patsy be calling John to find out when he was bringing his a$$ home from the d@mned airport on Christmas day?

    I've always thought it possible they made calls before calling 911, to lawyers included. With three minutes from the call to the first officer arriving, it sure would be a rushed conversation if they called lawyers after calling 911. And what about all the friends that were showing up?

    Spade, your posts are intriguing...

    Ayeka
    The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    -- Eden Phillpotts

  7. #19

    Default Phone records

    The Ramseys finally signed a release for the phone records in December 1998. They are sealed with the Grand jury testimony. However, that doesn't mean that they are unavailable to a persistent researcher. Not from the GJ records but from other sources available to LE.

    In Linda Arndt's deposition, she states that ALL of the non-LE outgoing calls from the Ramsey house after 6AM on 12/26/96 were made on John Ramsey or John Fernies cell phones. Yet, I have heard the same as you that phone company records for John's phone come up clean for the entire month of December 1996.

  8. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Austin (Metro area), TX
    Posts
    3,761

    Lightbulb

    The thought that just occurred to me while reading Ayeka's post is perhaps John was working the cell while Patsy was calling 911, which is why Patsy made the 911 call - something everyone including the BPD has questioned since John is the cool, calm, collected executive type and Patsy the hysterical, drama queen.
    Never let the children, Elders, the sick, or the infirm be exploited.


    "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines." Oliver Goldsmith


    Let's bring all our missing and military home safely!


    All of my thoughts written here are my constitutionally protected opinion.

    I reject any form of government in which the opinion of the village idiot is given the same weight as the opinion of Aristotle. (author unknown)


  9. #21

    Default Just a Minute, Spade

    Quote: "DejaNu If you believe the Ramsey's story then they had NO need for a lawyer at 6AM.
    Their daughter was kidnapped and their focus would have been to recover her not cover their own a**. The Ramsey's LIED from the getgo. Don't waste time
    trying to make their fabrications seem logical."

    You seem to be laboring under the misperception that I believe the Ramseys. Let me make it perfectly clear that I do not, never have, never will. If I did believe them, and my daughter had been kidnapped and I was warned she would be killed if I called authorities, you bet your sweet arse the first call I'd make is to my lawyer! And if I read the War and Peace of ransom notes over the phone to him, I'd hope my lawyer was good enough to recognize it was bogus and refer me to the best criminal defense lawyer money could buy. As you, I have believed in Ramsey culpability all along. John Ramsey knew one of them at least was good for it, and in that mindset, he most definitely would call lawyers at the precise time. Either way you look at it, lawyering up was a logical and expected thing to do. Not cooperating with LE was where they went way wrong. My intent is not to attempt to make lies seem logical, but to insert logic and deductive reasoning to the situation to assess whether your initial statement that the Rs pulled off something incredible in lawyering up could be accurate.

    Quote:" Incidentally, Bynums law firm is the largest in Boulder and employs 300+ lawyers, many of whom do criminal defense work. In DOI John talks about being asked by Bynum if Bynum could handle finding legal representation for the R's.
    The way John tells it, this occured on the 27th. BS"

    Largest doesn't equate to best in the legal field, Spade. Hal Haddon is the best criminal defense lawyer in CO, hands down. The very fact that Bynum didn't keep the representation in-house but referred it out tells us this close friend of JR's was more concerned about quality representation for his friend. I have no doubt JR called Bynum the first day and Bynum referred him to Haddon. It's good lawyering and the Rs could afford the best.

    Quote: "If you study how this case has been lawyered by both the prosecution and defense you will be well along the road of understanding what is really going on."

    Scuze me? I have spent the last 30 years of my life careering in law and teaching it. I can't do anything BUT study the legal aspects of this case, including the competent lawyering on the Ramsey side of the fence and the incompetence of the DA's office. You have only to review my postings at numerous forums over the last 6 years to discover that's true. If you need a character reference on me, speak to Tricia. I'm here at FFJ at her invitation and encouragement.

    Legal professionals have objective thinking, Spade, soas to see BOTH sides of a case. This is absolutely necessary to find weaknesses in the opposing side to prepare a better case on our own side. Such objective thinking uses logic, deductive reasoning and analysis in its approach to any legal situation. It's how we think, live, eat, sleep and breathe.

    We may not like the outcome, but the Rs had excellent legal representation during the criminal phase of this case. And I suspect that Haddon and Hunter cut a deal. That's why their arses aren't in prison. The only agenda the DA's office has ever had in the case is to bury it, and it seems they have done a good job at that, not as a result of competence but connections.

    There is an excellent study of the incestuous relationships between all the attorneys in this case and non-lawyers at Red Herring's. Boulder is a relatively small town that has enjoyed being run by the same group of power-brokers for the last 20 years. Those power-brokers are further incredibly well connected at very high levels. They work and run in the same circles. With that kind of network in place, anyone in the inner circle is bound to be protected. The Ramseys had all the RIGHT connections in Boulder. Finding a legal in-road to pierce that veil is what has been proving impossible.

    And fair warning to anyone thinking about trying to angle a way to get phone records. Not even LE can get them without a warrant, and what is protected under GJ seal has already been reported as woefully insufficient as others have already posted. While NYL may have temporarily succeeded in defeating the secrecy issue, it was appealed by the DA, who won an overturnment order from the appellate court. Darnay pledges to appeal that appellate ruling to the US Supreme Court, but to the best of my knowledge, hasn't as yet. Unless and until he does, and succeeds, those GJ records remain under seal.

    Let's not forget too that non-LE who found a way around that pesky warrant requirement to get phone records on the Ramseys were prosecuted in '97.

    After studying this case from a legal perspective for the last 6 years, I believe the Rs called Bynum upon "discovering" the RN. It is entirely possible that that call was made on their cell while PR was calling 911, but highly improbable due to the time factor and French's appearance. Nevertheless, it was all part of the staging; the Rs have clearly been using everyone, including their lawyers, since the beginning.

    I have never had a problem with suspects lawyering up; that is their constitutional right and frankly, quite smart. I've referred many clients over the years to other attorneys who have greater expertise and can provide more competent representation. JR had many opportunities to place numerous calls to lawyers on the 26th, not just one call and not to just one lawyer. The cell phone would have been the weapon of convenience and therefore choice with at least one cop rambling around his house. Maybe it's because I've been in the business, but I've never seen lawyering up as some red flag of guilt. But I have always had a problem with suspects who don't cooperate with an investigation. The Ramseys did everything but.

    What is the key interest in this entire thread from a legal perspective is that Bynum and probably JR felt at risk for some reason by FW sufficiently enough to call FW on the rug the very same day. THAT's the most telltale aspect of this entire issue.

  10. #22

    Default DejaNu

    I'm not laboring under any misconceptions. If you found a "ransom note" and then called your civil lawyer before calling 911 in order to hook up with the top fixer in CO then I would say you are out of touch with your home(Reality). This is a waste of time. Read some more on this case then we might be able to discuss.

  11. #23

    Default

    Quote: "DejaNu
    I'm not laboring under any misconceptions. If you found a "ransom note" and then called your civil lawyer before calling 911 in order to hook up with the top fixer in CO then I would say you are out of touch with your home(Reality). This is a waste of time. Read some more on this case then we might be able to discuss."

    Spade, get off your high horse. I'm not going to trade disparaging barbs with you. Any innocent person who would call police under those circumstances when their daughter's death is promised for doing so would be out of touch with reality, not vice versa. Any guilty party who wouldn't call a lawyer deserves what he will surely get. And we ALL know that JR himself considered this an "inside job" as stated to police on that very day. In either case, JR's call was to an attorney-friend, not just a selection out of the yellow pages. Anyone who is accustomed to working with lawyers in the course of business usually has their attorney's phone numbers on speed-dial. The very fact that JR called his corporate lawyer should tell you he was unfamiliar with criminal lawyers, not having apparently needed one as yet. Perhaps the wonderful world of business and law are not areas of life you are familiar with.

    I hardly consider thoughtful intelligent discourse a waste of time, sorry you do. Many members have brought their RL expertise onto the forums to do so, and only those lacking in it find it necessary to flame us. The public's perception of all things legal has always fascinated me. It is usually 180 degrees from a legal perspective, as yours certainly is. When you get some legal experience of your own, perhaps you'll be able to see things differently.

    Perhaps you should exercise some self-restraint and work at being more open to other concepts. I do not agree with you that the Ramseys pulled a quickie on the 26th, get over it. Again, the more interesting issue of any legal concern on this thread is where FW is concerned, and my efforts to try to focus posters on it will continue, regardless of your low opinion of me.

  12. #24

    Default Furthermore

    I strongly believe that both the 911 call and initial call to Bynum were part of a preconceived plan by the Ramseys to promote the kidnapping story. When it was obviously failing to convince LE, it is quite likely more phone calls to lawyer(s) were made throughout the day, one of which was focused on FW's involvement. It is also entirely possible that FW read the RN when he first arrived at the house that morning and expressed his belief right then and there that the note was bogus, thus creating concern by JR and subsequently the lawyer(s) about FW's position. However, there is nothing hard-evidence wise to suggest in which call with what lawyer FW's position could have been discussed, resulting in the call by Bynum. What is interesting is that Bynum felt the need to discuss the situation in person with FW, rather than by phone.



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