Patsy we know never did... but what about John...

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Sprocket, Feb 1, 2004.

  1. Sprocket

    Sprocket Member

    I have question, that, I'm sure has been asked before.

    I've not followed this case, on the net for very long, like most of you (basically because I've only had net connection since late Sept, 2000) and so, please forgive me if this has already been debated ad nauseum.

    We know Patsy never went to bed that night, and never changed her clothes. But what about John? S. Thomas does't say in his book. Is there photographic evidence that has been mentioned somewhere, somehow, to show the comparison of what he was wearing at the Whites, and what he was wearing when the police arrived?

    If JOHN was wearing the same clothes, like Patsy was when the police officer ("French" was it?) showed up at their door, then we would have a high probablity that HE never went to bed that night, too. But, if HIS clothes were different, then that gives more weight, to Thomas's outline of what may have happened, or that John was not directly involved in the accident/murder, just part of the cover up. I mean, why would HE have the time to shower and shave before police arrived, and not Patsy, if they both were involved in the actual incident?

     
  2. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Sprocket I've followed this case from the get-go and the point at which John Ramsey got involved is still unclear to me. Was he molesting JBR and that led to the killing somehow? Some people think so. Or maybe Patsy did it over bed-wetting and JR found out later--so the questions becomes how much later?

    Some people feel JR didn't find out until after he read the note. Realizing it was written by Patsy, he then looked around the house and found the body around 10:00 am. After that he tried to protect her.

    Then again, if that scenario were true, why was John Ramsey talking to Burke during the 911 call, but then lying about it to police? Does that mean he knew everything at 5:00 am?

    I don't know.
     
  3. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Hi Sprocket - According to Thomas's book, on the morning of the 26th John was wearing a blue and white striped shirt.

    According to the Atlanta interview transcript, he was wearing a black shirt (which left fibers on JonBenet's underwear) Christmas night.

    So it appears John changed his clothes.
     
  4. Sprocket

    Sprocket Member

    Thank You very much....

    Britt & BobC.

    I've read the various speculatons, on what specific scenario could have happened. Just trying to keep up here and understand all the nuances, and all the fallout from various web sites (current and deceased) could make someone's head spin.

    At this point though, knowing that John changed his clothes, it's hard for me to imagine, that if he was involved from the beginning, why John had time to change, but Patsy did not. A possible reason they lied about Burke being up, is, they both wanted to have a plausable reason, for the police NOT to question Burke, AT ALL. Why they would do that, well, that's another one of those "unknowns."

    Again, thanks.
     
  5. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Well if you put it that way--one scenario would be that John actually killed Jonbenet and he was afraid some of her bodily fluids, like blood or saliva, got on his clothes and/or body, so he took a shower and changed. Remember JR was reading "Mindhunter" by John Douglas, so he was aware of this kind of thing. Patsy may not have been--and may have been blackmailed by John into helping him stage the scene.

    Remember that the dictionary in JR's office was open to the page with the word incest on it. What if Patsy walked in on JBR and JR, and caught them in a questionable but not quite over the line position--but in Patsy's mind it confirmed what she had suspected for a while--that her husband was messing with her daughter. Patsy loses it, attacks, and lunges, and somehow Jonbenet gets hit with the flashlight by accident. They both realize Jonbenet is not coming back so the blame game starts. John tells Patsy that all he was doing was maybe whiping Jonbenet (sorry to be so graphic), tells Patsy no one would ever believe he was molesting her since he was just whiping her, so for both of their sakes they'd better stick together and fake the scene.

    Patsy panics and isn't sure what to do so she goes into the study and tries to find out what is legally "incest" and all she can think to do is look it up in the dictionary. She doesn't find much to help there, but leaves it open for the cops to find later.

    Patsy ends up getting conned into thinking she was mainly to blame and decides to go with the staging. John helps some, but due to his knowledge of true crime investigation, he makes sure Patsy does most of the staging--AND he knows to take a shower.

    All throughout the next morning, people are struck with how distant these two are. Yeah they stick together but there's no comforting, no closeness.

    You know, when I first watched John and Patsy on their CNN gig--I had no idea who they were or what had happened. But the one feeling I picked up immediately, despite the show they were putting on,was that Patsy Ramsey hated John Ramsey. It's hard to explain but I picked up on a feeling that Patsy couldn't believe how easily JR was doing all this--and she hated him for it. Just a gut feeling on my part. This scenario might explain a lot of things.

    On the other hand--it could be all completely wrong. Who knows?
     
  6. Sprocket

    Sprocket Member

    Sooooo....

    Call me slow, but, in my mind, that still would not explain to me, how John was able to find time to shower, after Patsy caught him with JB, yet Patsy did not.

    "You strangle her with the garote (Patsy's clothing fibers, were intertwined in the cord, right?) and write the ranson note, while I take a shower, dear."

    Or, they are arguing/fighting.... in shock, as to the condition of their daughter, and in the process, of being in shock/fighting, they are able to NOT wake Burke, and, John finds time to shower?

    If John was involved from the get go, and Patsy was coerced (sp?) into the kidnapping staging, then, why would the two adults, leave the body in the house? Would they really ONLY be afraid of waking Burke?
     
  7. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Huh? GIRL--the killer had up to 5 HOURS to stage this thing. What is this bizness about not having time to shower? Both of them had time! Patsy however did not. Now--maybe another scenario is that JR had already showered by the time midnight-2:00am (when the murder took place) rolled around but Patsy had not. Maybe Patsy was still up getting stuff together for the trip when the whole thing took place.

    We may never know about JR's role, but what's really important is that Patsy was still wearing the exact same outfit she wore the night before when police got there.
     
  8. DocG

    DocG Banned

    test

    test123
     
  9. DocG

    DocG Banned

    John and Patsy Patsy and John

    Amazing. According to my test I can now actually post to this forum. All previous attempts failed for reasons unknown. I'm gonna keep this short since I still don't trust the process over here.

    We do NOT have proof that Patsy was up all night. The fact that she was wearing the same clothes tells me she couldn't have been up all night. Because this woman is not stupid. If she'd been up all night murdering her daughter, writing a note and covering up her crime, either with or without benefit of her husband, she'd have been sure to SHOWER and CHANGE. (Ahhh . . . but isn't that what JOHN did?)
     
  10. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Good God.
     
  11. Sprocket

    Sprocket Member

    BobC
    I agree with you. To me, the exact same clothes, and make up and hair. This is a big red flag.

    Good God, is right.
     
  12. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Re: John and Patsy Patsy and John

    Is that like... reverse staging psychology?

    Patsy is not stupid, you say? But Doc, I've been reading your theory for years and I have to say its plausibility is entirely dependent on Patsy being stupid.

    It's much more likely that Patsy couldn't shower and change because she couldn't do so without waking John before she was ready for him to assume his role in the coverup, and by then she didn't have time for personal grooming because she had other player(s) to supervise, not to mention plotting, set decoration, rehearsals and performances.
     
  13. DocG

    DocG Banned

    There are a great many reasons why Patsy could not have done this crime. Foremost among them is the fact that she was wearing the same outfit the next morning. If she was up all night then she'd definitely have been sure to change before calling the police. If she intended to fool John she would certainly have put on her night clothes and snuck back into bed. If she and John were in on it together, then she'd have had no problem changing and woulnd't have needed to sneak. WHY would she want to call the police wearing the same outfit as the night before? As far as her makeup is concerned, her story is that she put on fresh makeup that AM, prior to discovering the note. Are you implying that she was wearing the same makeup as the night before when the police arrived? If so then it wouldn't have looked particularly fresh, would it?

    There are many other reasons for doubting Patsy's involvement, notably the note itself. Why write such a note and then call the police, who will soon enough discover there was no kidnapping after all? What would it have done for her?
     
  14. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Hi DocG. Glad to see you post again.

    Let's not factor in whether Patsy did it or not. Let's just talk about makeup for a second.

    Patsy had the best of everything. I will assume that included makeup. Believe me there is a difference in quality. The more expensive the longer lasting.

    I don't ever remember anyone saying she had "fresh" makeup on. Just makeup.

    If she would have gone to sleep with her makeup on then it would have been smeared. However if she stayed up all night I would say it's likely that her makeup stayed on just fine. Not 100 percent fresh but still looking good.

    Patsy knew how to put on makeup. I am certain she had the best. In fact there are certain face creams you put on before you apply foundation that makes yoru makeup stay on and not rub off. It's a very expensive face cream but it works. It mattes your make up. Meaning you need a knife to scrape it off.LOL.

    So I see no problem with Patsy staying up all night and having her makeup last and last.

    I have always thought Patsy ran out of time. She heard John in the shower and didn't have time to change. Unless you think John was in on it then there would be no need for her to change.

    As far as the note I do believe Patsy wrote it. That I feel certain of. In my opinion of course:)

    The whole point of the note was to throw the police off their trail. Make it look like a kidnapping. If they called the police and said, "Our daughter is missing" then suspecision would be right on the Ramsey shoulders from the get go.

    Write a ransom note and you have the police running in circles trying to find the kidnapper. Then the body is found. The Ramsey say it was the intruder who wrote the note and killed JBR. One or both of the Ramseys were assuming the police would never suspect them. I bet they had no idea this would become a media circus. Things didn't turn out the way they wanted them to.

    FWIW.
     
  15. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    My personality sucks.
     
  16. Spade

    Spade Member

    DocG

    I agree that it is unlikely that Patsy Ramsey was responsible for the death of JonBenet.

    However, fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, wound into the ligature, and stuck to the duct tape that was over her mouth. (Keeping in mind that John has told both the BPD and Looney Lou that he ripped the tape off JonBenet's mouth as soon as he "discovered" her body in the wine cellar.)

    So. since Patsy's jacket fibers are all over the crime scene, why are they there? Was she covering for someone? John maybe? (Keeping in mind that fibers from John's black shirt were found in the crotch of the oversized "bloomies".)
     
  17. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Great post, Tricia. I agree with every word.

    As for Patsy not changing clothes, or not deeming it wise to change clothes, or not having it occur to her to change clothes... IMO Patsy, being Patsy, didn't think past the superficial presentation. She was dressed, made up and coiffed. She was ready for the show, period. It probably didn't occur to her that anyone would notice she was wearing the same clothes as the night before.... probably figured the world would be so dazzled by the performance and so wrapped up in the drama that nothing else would matter.
     
  18. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Britt,

    I sort of tend to agree with your thoughts there. She was ready for the "show". Don't forget that even though Patsy was wearing the same clothes as the day before the cops didn't know that . How could they?

    A lady in distress opens the door after calling the cops and the cop sees a lady dressed and makeup on...so what? And don't forget that all her friends were coming over or were already there when the cops arrived. She wouldn't dare be seen without makeup in front of her friends would she?
     
  19. Sprocket

    Sprocket Member

    For people in the Ramsey social class, especially Patsy and the beauty pagent drama, IMAGE, and presentation, is EVERYTHING.
     
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    Pscychology plays a big part in it

    I think this is exactly what Patsy Ramsey wants everyone to think - why would she bother leaving a note, especially when the body was found in the house? It was the first reaction for many of us, even John Andrew said to Steve Thomas..."Why bother with a note at all?" Words to this effect.

    Using the $118,000 as a ransom figure, to throw suspicion on Access Graphic employees. As Delmar England states in his analysis, this figure was embedded in her head because of John's bonus. She lied and said she knew nothing about it. She knew it all right.

    The garrote is another one - to sidetrack LE away from the blow to her head being the first injury through being thrown against
    the tub maybe (?). My guess is the bathroom. A small child couldn't be thrown around too much in there without hitting something solid like the bath or toilet.

    If the injury occurred shortly after they all returned home, then this would account for Patsy keeping on the same outfit because
    of the physical contact she may have had while struggling with JonBenét, and then she plans on falling over JonBenét when her body is brought upstairs by John, which is exactly what happened.
    All those friends didn't make one move to hold her back. Strange.
    This is what friends usually do, hold their friends back because of the trauma it can cause.

    Yes, I would say Psychology plays a big part in the cover-up.
     
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