1. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    A question I have about the duct tape is - do we know what was used to cut it?

    If it was scissors, then would it not have left gummy residue on the blades? Was there a search for such scissors and were they checked for fingerprints? How likely is it that an intruder perp carried his own scissors?

    If it was a knife, - same questions.

    Could the perp have broken the tape with his teeth? I do. I can snap a piece of tape with my nails too - but I doubt I'd be able to do that with duct tape.

    I heard of a case where tape was used and the perp used his teeth to break the tape. It was his DNA found on the edge of the tape that nailed him.

    Perhaps we already know what was used to cut the tape, but I don't recall reading it anywhere.
     
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    Jayelles,

    I can't quite remember exactly which forum I read this on, but I read that duct tape was included in the packaging of the brand of doll "Twinn Doll" that Patsy had ordered in the likeness of JonBenét, for Christmas - the doll which JonBenét didn't think looked like her at all, and didn't play with after opening.

    Maybe some other poster will remember this too (?). I'll see if I can find anything about it.

    It may well have been a small piece big enough to have gone over JonBenét's mouth, therefore no scissors would have been used, but Burke's Whittling knife was found in the basement, so who knows, maybe adhesive from the tape is on that, but I haven't heard too much about this knife after it was found (?).

    This was the red knife which Linda Hoffman Pugh took away from Burke, when Patsy couldn't make the decision herself. He whittled wood all over the place and dropped the shavings. Patsy didn't know how to discipline him?


    You can find the information about the piece of duct tape at:

    http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-pam-removed.htm

    An Anonymous e-mail was received by ACR on 29 August, 2002, from an employee of the American Doll Company. I couldn't copy any of it. Scroll down quite a bit. A lot of good information there.
    Thank you ACR
     
  3. purr

    purr Active Member

    wow.......good sleuthing

    surely, the investigators know the answer
    to this question................

    surely, they didnt overlook something as
    important as this.

    ..........but you just never know!
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    I would hope so, Purr, but I haven't read too much on this piece of duct tape related to the Twinn Doll, other than what I read on some site a long time ago, and tonight on the ACandyrose site (?).

    I'm worn out with the severe winter we've come through, but have been able to get out and walk this past week, but we still have high piles of dirty snow along the sides of the road. :mad:I'm ready for Spring too!
     
  5. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Was the duct tape torn?

    I found this:-

    http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0802rams1.shtml

    Interesting. I've read the theory that the duct tape came from her My Twinn doll and the reasoning behind that had to do with fibres which were found on the tape.

    I also recall that in a previous discussion, there were those who doubted the existence of the cords on the doll and I see that jameson posted similar doubts yesterday. This is quite astonishing as Why_Nut (I think) posted images of the dolls which clearly showed these cords during the previous debate.

    If the duct tape DIDN'T come from the doll, would the fact that it was torn rather than cut suggest anything about the perp?

    And more importantly - has the tape been tested for DNA? The perp may have started the tear between his/her teeth.
     
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, it's possible this could have happened. To date, I haven't read anything relating to DNA being found on this tape. You bring up a good point, Jayelles. Duct tape wouldn't be easy to cut with a knife, not unless the sharp point of the knife was used to make a small starting cut and then torn. Being held in the hands alone would leave prints too, I'm thinking (?). Maybe someone else can add to this.

    One can't blame LHP for thinking the Ramseys are involved when the knife was removed from the cupboard she placed it in. A stranger wouldn't have known it was there; just in the same way a stranger wouldn't have known where the windowless/wine room was. It was an inside job!
     
  7. Frankg

    Frankg Member

    The tape and the knife

    Re; the duct tape... I thought there was also discussion that the tape had come from the back of a picture, and not the doll. Regardless, I recall that the belief was the tape was previously used and not cut/torn fresh from a roll. Remember, also, that no matching roll of duct tape was ever found in the house, though many thought Pam might have removed it when she came to the house the day after and started removing items in boxes that no one reviewed (unbelievable..). That no "source" for the tape was ever found, and that John Ramsey removed the tape from JonBenet, almost renders this piece of evidence useless (except, of course, the fibers stuck to it). In fact, if the tape was fresh and if investigators couldn't find the source roll, then that would suggest someone removed the roll when they left the house, and that would suggest an intruder.

    Re; the knife... agreed that no intruder would know where it was, but LHP had hidden the knife and didn't tell anyone (read; John, Patsy or Burke) where she put it, so really, that puts the Ramsey's at the same disadvantage as an intruder wrt the knife's location and therefore does not prove an inside job. Using this logic, one could say this proves LHP committed the crime, but I certainly am not going there! Likewise, IMO, the windowless room is not difficult to find (and no, I've never been inside the house). The house may have been a labyrinth, but if you found the stairs to the cellar and walked down them, you have to turn right at the bottom. From there the windowless room is straight ahead. Admittedly, there is a doorway there and if the door was closed, that may not be the most obvious path to take, but from what I've seen/heard, the door was open and the door to the windowless room was visible from the bottom of the stairs.
     
  8. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    I don't understand

    I don't understand why it would be any more feasible for an intruder to remove a roll of tape from the house than it would be for the Ramseys to remove a roll of tape from the house when they left. I've long thought certain items of evidence went out of that house in Patsy's handbag or someone's pockets. A roll of tape would be difficult to hide in a pocket, but it would fit nicely inside a handbag. No one frisked the Ramseys or demanded to inspect Patsy's purse when they left. They couldn't have done so without a warrant, anyway. So the Ramseys were free to leave with a handbag full of evidence if they wanted to.
     
  9. Frankg

    Frankg Member

    Agreed, WY

    I was speaking in general terms. Of course, if there was a roll of tape it could have left with them when they left the house that day, as you suggest, or Pam could have removed it later, etc. Point being, we'll never know because the police maintained such a loose crime scene. We can now only go by what is known, which is a roll was never found. So, based on these very loose "facts", it would suggest an intruder removed it, but I wouldn't plan to use that as much of an argument in court.
     
  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    If Linda Hoffman Pugh hid the knife in the airing/linen cupboard "as I once read" then Patsy Ramsey could have very easily come across this knife, because LHP wasn't always around to change the sheets, if soiled by JonBenét. I remember reading that LHP said Patsy Ramsey often had JB's bed stripped with the sheets in the dryer before she arrived in the morning. Maybe she chose the sheets for replacement (?).


    The towels may have been in the same airing cupboard, as the sheets, and towels are used regularly for showers etc., Short of Patsy Ramsey or LHP renewing the towels for all of them, any one of them could have found iBurke's knife. I'll speak for myself. I still think it was an inside job.
     
  11. Frankg

    Frankg Member

    Elle

    I don't deny anything is possible. I was simply responding to your comment about not blaming LHP for thinking the Ramsey's were involved, and then implying that this knife being found at the crime scene suggested an inside job. The only thing we know for certain was LHP hid the knife and she didn't tell anyone else where she put it. If I had been LHP, I'd have been much more concerned that the knife was in some way going to implicate me than suggesting the Ramsey's were involved. Personally, I've always been intrigued by the knife but I've never considered it as something to implicate the Ramsey's, not without a way to prove one of them had found it prior to the murder.

    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to impugn your opinion, if it was taken that way. Clearly there are lots of reasons to believe an inside job, and you have a lot of company thinking that way. I respect and value your opinion.
     
  12. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    Is this Frankg my old buddy from JW Forum days?? If so - hey Frank, Mrs shadow and I are now in Eastern NC taking care of my mother-in-law.
     
  13. Frankg

    Frankg Member

    Hey Shadow

    You betcha ! So good to find you again, Shadow.

    So, aside from my hat, what gave me away? It couldn't be my "hmmm, I'm not so sure this amounts to that" logic, could it? :D

    Eastern NC, huh.. damn, we could be neighbors. I'll shoot you a private message.. I don't want to clog this forum up with personal chit-chat.
     
  14. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    The old "you could be right but..." gave you away Frankg.
     
  15. Elle

    Elle Member

    Oh Frank, I'm not like that, sorry! I get on just fine with posters who have different opinions. I see where you're coming from, and I understand what you're saying here, and you're right. I respect your opinion too! :p They could have put the blame on LHP herself. I wasn't even thinking along those lines.
     
  16. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Hi Elle & Jayelles!!!!

    Hello everyone :D.

    I just wanted to add my 2 cents here regarding the My Twinn and American Girl Dolls.

    The American Girl doll is the one that has the cord on the back of the neck, attaching the head to the body. In my opinion, the AG doll is not attractive at all and this visible, hanging cord adds to it's ugliness.

    My daughter only has one AG doll, but the novelty of these dolls is that they come with a story (actually, a series of stories) and a name. All of the characters (dolls) are from different periods of American history.

    The AG dolls do not come with duct tape anywhere in or on the packaging. The dolls do not come with tape on the body or neck. I believe the tape can be used to hold in the cording if it is annoying.

    Now the My Twinn doll is interesting. This particular doll is truly beautiful. It is much bigger than the AG doll and each MT doll is (or, I should say, 'was,' since the company is now out-of-business) made to resemble your child.

    The MT dolls have eyes that do not close ( remember Patsy telling us that the MT doll, in it's box, looked like JBR dead since the doll was lying there with it's eyes closed???). The AG eyes do close.

    The MT dolls come in a large cardboard box that is stamped "MY TWINN" on the outside of the box. There is no duct tape on this box or in the packaging.

    In the box, the MT doll's head is wrapped in tissue paper and tied around the neck with a ribbon. That is how your MT doll arrives. I assume this scary-looking packaging is done so that the doll's pretty face and hair-do don't get crushed during shipping.

    So, no, the dolls do not come with tape anywhere on them. Placing duct tape on the back of the AG doll is one way to solve the visible cord issue. The MT doll does not have this type of cord and does not need the tape.

    So, there you have it...a mommy's eye view of the doll issue :)

    I am not quite sure where the duct tape could have come from, but I am guessing it was previously-used tape that did not have to be re-cut.

    I have been kicking around the idea that the cord used in the staging came from a child's jump-rope, although it could have come from a number of cord sources.

    Well, it's great to be here :)
     
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    Hi WMG,

    Thanks for this information. I read Patsy's thoughts on her Twinn Doll in "DOI" Strange!

    So...what you're saying here is the following information sent to ACR was false (?).

    from page 1 on this thread, from my post:


    You can find the information about the piece of duct tape at:

    http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-pam-removed.htm

    An Anonymous e-mail was received by ACR on 29 August, 2002, from an employee of the American Doll Company. I couldn't copy any of it. Scroll down quite a bit. A lot of good information there.
    Thank you ACR


    I can forward your post to ACR. I'm sure she would like to hear what you have to say. Please okay this first.

    Several ideas about the cord have been mentioned over the years. The trim round Patsy's navy blue jacket, and JonBenét's looks like the same flat white cord on the garrotte, plus this same cord could have been used as an art sling to carry a painting. I believe one was taken out the house by sister Pam, but don't quote me on this. One would need to check the "list of items taken" by the police.

    As for sister Pam's list. I doubt one was ever made. When the police woman asked if the items taken from the house were being listed, she was told not to worry about that.
     
  18. Voyager

    Voyager Active Member

    Hi Frank G. and Everyone...

    I was trying to remember....Was Burke's knife ever found and taken into evidence?

    One thing that I remember and that stuck in my mind, was that when Burke was being interrogated, he was asked if he knew what had happened to his sister.....

    Part of Burke's reply was something like.....and I am paraphrasing...Someone took her to the basement with a knife and killed her.....Anyone else remember this interview with Burke?

    Since JonBenet did not have stab wounds, makes one wonder why Burke incorporated the use of a knife in his rendition of what happened to his sister....

    Voyager
     
  19. Elle

    Elle Member

    Found in the windowless room

    Yes, Voyager, it was found in the same room JonBenét was found in...the wine cellar/windowless room. So ..I hardly think an intruder knew where to go and find this, do you?

    The fact this kniife was hidden by Linda Hoffman Pugh, she was the one who was being interrogated as the Ramseys walked out of their own home to go to the Fernies. To quote Steve Thomas, LHP was giving handwriting samples to the police around about the same time.

    I believe LHP was the first one to be thrown under the Ramsey bus.

    Yes, I remember that interview and the knife comments.
     
  20. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Hi Elle!

    I think what the letter writer is telling ACR is that she told parents to apply their own tape to the back of the doll head if the cord was a problem for the child.

    I suppose you could use either masking tape or duct tape. Electrical tape would probably be the best, in my opinion, since, it is much more narrow than duct tape.

    No, the tape does not come with the doll. But, the author of the letter to ACR is correct. You can use duct tape if need be.

    I just don't know if any children would want the duct tape stuck to their doll. The hanging cord is knotted at the back of the neck and each length of cord, from the knot is about four to five inches long.

    Frankly, if wolfkid ever complained about the cord, I would rather cut it off than tape it to the doll.

    Now, one of the AG dolls comes with a blue wool outfit. I think it is 'Meg'??? She is the one with the glasses. I will have to check on this info to be sure.

    No. Sorry, it is 'Molly.' Here is the link:

    http://www.americangirlstore.com/pls/ag/ag_agc_molly?catid=375916

    Anyway, I know JBR had a 'Samantha.' This is the doll my daughter has and I believe it is one of the most popular AG dolls.

    I am fairly certain JB owned the 'Samantha' doll because she was familliar with the story that comes with this particular AG.

    I don't know where I read this info, but didn't someone say (maybe in PMPT???) that JB loved the American Girl story about the wealthy little girl who befriended the poor girl hired to clean the neighbor's house??? This story is in one of Samantha's introductory books.

    So, if she had the story, she had the doll.

    The 'Molly' doll comes dressed in the blue wool outfit and has her hair tied in two braids. The 'Samantha' doll, which comes in a polyester blend plaid 'school' dress, has hair that hangs over the neck.

    With the 'Molly' doll, the bothersome neck cords would be much more noticeable, since the hair is parted above the hanging cords.

    If JBR kept her AG doll pristine, she probably would not have removed the braids.

    In that case, the cords would have been in the way. Maybe Patsy cut them, or, possibly, taped them.

    It was reported that Pam retrieved more than one AG doll from the home. I wonder if this is true since a lot of people confuse the American Girl dolls with the My Twinn dolls (in general this happens - not just as the confusion relates to this case, lol).

    Like I said, I know JBR had 'Samantha.' Did she also have 'Molly?' If so, then, yes, this is a possible source for the unidentified dark fibers found on the body...If the doll walked out of the house without being tested, then so did the fibers...

    Elle, please feel free to send my doll info to ACR, if you think she could use it.
    :) Thanks!!!!
     
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