Something New - and Scary!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Wolfmarsgirl, Apr 6, 2004.

  1. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Over at websleuths, someone started a thread about Deanna Laney, a Texas mom who went on a killing spree, much like Andrea Yates, and murdered two of her three children.

    Up until the moment I read about the Laney case, I always assumed Patsy killed JBR by accident and attempted to cover up her mistake.

    I also always assumed that John did not take part in the cover up.

    Lately, I wonder if either assumption is true.

    In Laney's case, she started her killing spree in the middle of the night. I believe she tried to kill her 14-month-old first. (Thankfully, the youngest child lived.)

    While she was hovering over her baby's crib, trying to stone him to death, her husband surprised her by peeking into the baby's room. When he asked her what she was doing, she told him she was just changing the baby's diaper.

    Here is a quick summary of my 'what ifs' regarding the Ramsey case:

    What if Patsy intentionally killed JBR?

    Laney, like Patsy, was a bible-thumper. According to Laney, "God" told her to murder her boys. So, she obeyed and successfully stoned to death her two oldest boys while her husband slept.

    Now, what if Patsy killed JBR and was on her way to Burke's room when John discovered what she had done (or, in Burke's case, what she was about to do)?

    Of course, John would not allow the Ramsey name to be tied to a Good-Mother-Gone-a-Killing headline, would he?

    What if John coerced Patsy into covering up her bad deeds instead of calling 911 (like any self-respecting psychotic child-bludgeoning woman would do)?

    Maybe she had planned to send the children home to God on Christmas night. Maybe John stopped her.

    What if Burke actually woke up just as John confronted Patsy? If he was not used to seeing his parents arguing in the middle of the night, he would be terribly frightened. He would probably toss and turn and not sleep much for the rest of the night.

    Then, at dawn, he might creep out of his room, wondering exactly what his dad found that would make him scream at his mom so loudly.

    The boy might even be tempted to ask his parents, "Please, what did you find???"

    He also might start to think that it was him and not his mother that stirred his dad's late-night anger.

    He might even ask them, "Please, what did I do???"

    Could this be the reason why all of the clues don't add up to anything substantial? Could this be why both Ramseys lawyered up? Could this be why John and Patsy seemed so distant from each other on the morning of the 26th? Could this explain the 911 tape? The practice 911 call a few days earlier???

    What do you think?

    If Deanna Laney and Andrea Yates could do it, why not Patsy?

    Think about it this way:

    What if Laney's husband pressed Laney about the infant when he walked in on her?

    What if he discovered what she was really doing?

    What if he decided that it was more important to preserve the 'Laney' name than it was to get help for his sick wife and to avenge his children's deaths?

    What if the Laneys worked together all night and dragged the older boys' bodies out into the woods?

    What if they simply reported the children missing the next morning?

    Well, I think we would have another Ramsey case, don't you?
     
  2. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    I think the big difference here

    is, if Patsy did kill JBR in a religious fever as this alleged mentally ill woman did with her boys, I don't think she would be able to hide her psychosis after the fact. Andrea Yates called the police and her husband to tell them she had killed her boys. Didn't the Laney woman also call the police, I think I read than but I'm not sure. Neither of these women was playing with a full deck, and it showed afterward - Andrea was spaced out, Laney was talking about being directed by God to kill her children. Patsy didn't exhibit that kind of psychosis - she was fully in charge of all her mental facilities on the morning of Dec. 26 and has been ever since. That doesn't mean she doesn't have any mental defects; it simply means she is not insane. I believe the Laney woman is insane. In court that would mean the Laney woman was nuts. Patsy may be nuts, but not in that way.
     
  3. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Possibly, but who is to say what degree of 'nuts' would make a mother slay her own children?

    Susan Smith was only slightly 'nuts' compared to Yates and Laney, right? I mean, at least she did it for a real man, instead of for 'God.'

    You also have to remember Laney had enough wits about her to come up with a lie to tell her husband when he discovered her near her son's crib. So, was she not quite as insane as Yates? Who is to say?

    Patsy was also heavily drugged from the 26th onward. Perhaps, after the killing, she was finally given the medication she should have been on to prevent the murder in the first place...

    What I am thinking is that maybe Patsy wanted to call 911. Maybe she practiced calling 911, 'and hence' the call to 911 on the 23rd...

    Maybe John stopped her from carrying out the rest of her plan, in all respects, thereby saving Burke's life and also stopping Patsy's intended 911 call.

    Yes, Laney told everyone about how God directed her to kill her boys. Patsy told God to bring back her child. Patsy told all of us about how she brought death into her own home by adding the color purple to her Christmas decorations. Patsy told us about a vision she had while looking at a doll about JBR being dead in a casket. Patsy was, no doubt, suffering from post-hysterectomy depression, probably without replacement hormones because of the cancer treatments.

    Patsy has always seemed a little funny to me. She is not quite right, but I can't put my finger on the specific behavior that makes her seem that way.

    Maybe John's pressure on her allowed Patsy to 'snap out of it,' somewhat like Laney 'snapped out of it' for a moment to lie to her husband. Maybe John's interference gave her enough temporary sanity to get her through the staging and the waiting audience the next day. The drugs did the rest...

    Of course, Patsy is a natural actress too.

    I am not saying Patsy definitely killed JBR for religious reasons. I always assumed she killed the child because JBR was too confrontational on a really, really bad night. I thought she just fought, physically, with the child and Patsy won.

    Now, I am not so sure. I think it is possible that this was premeditated, although I don't want to believe that possibility. That is what makes this scenario 'scary' to me.

    Perhaps she felt John was paying too much attention to his older kids and she thought he didn't want his younger ones...Or, maybe Patsy thought John was molesting both kids and she had to 'save' them...Who knows?

    The reason I mentioned the religion is because I think, at times, religious zealots are pretty darned nuts in general. Patsy was no exception. I think the 'Jesus' this and 'Jesus' that in the household is very close to abuse when the kids are being preached to by over-religious parents.

    The Ramseys are not like these other families. In the cases where the mother killed the kids, the fathers obviously cared far more about their children than they cared about their reputation. That is the only difference I can see, for certain, in these cases.

    It is tragic if this is the truth, for a lot of obvious reasons. Also, if it is true, my long-held favorable opinion of John Ramsy is gone. I always thought he was haunted by, but innocent of all crimes related to JBR's death.

    Have you ever heard of Marlynn Lemak? She also killed her three kids and tried to take her own life. She placed an eight-minute call to 911 during which she expressed concern that the emergency crew might let the cat out..

    Sane...then insane...back and forth. I will try to find and post the link to the Lemak 911 call. Talk about scary!
     
  4. Freebird

    Freebird Active Member

    Lets not forget Dianne Downs...she didn't need religion or madness to murder her children.
     
  5. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Oh, yes, I forgot about her! Didn't she have a boyfriend or something, like Smith, who didn't like the kids?

    Here is a link to the 911 transcript for Marilyn Lemak. I can't find the actual audio of the call. I just listened to it a few weeks ago and I can't find it...Argh! Maybe, someone else can locate it. It is out there somewhere.

    Anyway, here is the transcript link:

    http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news9912/ct991217.htm
     
  6. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    Wolfmarsgirl, I think we need to stick to the facts and evidence in all these cases rather than launching a "what if" campaign in the Ramsey case. Both Laney and Yates had a long well documented history of mental illness and treatment, including severe post-partum depression, prior to killing their children. Both these women had recently given birth and were once again suffering severe post-partum depression when they committed their crimes. Both the Yates and Laney juries found these women insane and therefore not criminally liable under TX statutes for their crimes. Both women were sentenced to terms in psychiatric facilities.

    Susan Smith also had a long history of mental illness and post-partum depression prior to killing her sons. Although that jury did find her guilty of murder, and she is incarcerated, she also has a psychiatric treatment component to her sentence in recognition of her long-time mental illness.

    In the Downs case, Diane had a long history of severe emotional instability, post-partum depression and violent behavior before she murdered her children. Upon full psychiatric exam following charging, Diane was found to be a profound narcissistic sociopath with a childhood history of severe abuse, including sexual. She also received a jail sentence, but also has a psychiatric component to it and is still receiving psychiatric services while interred.

    While Patsy Ramsey at best can be clinically described as a histrionic personality, she was 6 years out from her last pregnancy and therefore no post-partum defense is logical. She was also several years out from her cancer treatment and any defense based in it affecting her psychologically would be equally bizarre. Anyone mentally ill enough to kill their own child would have a disturbing history at least behaviorally with eyewitness testimony, as in all the above cases, of such conduct culminating in murder. Mentally ill people aren't normal-appearing one day and suddenly commit a violent brutal murder, unless they are on drugs, either prescription or street.

    Severe mental illness, not religious ferver, was the driving force in the Yates and Laney cases. While "what if's" make for titillating forum conversation, it is always wise to keep speculations based on known evidence and suspect histories. No such history is in evidence in the Ramsey case against anyone.
     
  7. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    DejaNu - "Severe mental illness, not religious ferver, was the driving force in the Yates and Laney cases." Totally agree!! And I also agree, DejaNu, that the "what ifs" don't seem to apply very well to Patsy... but I have to admit that I found the scenario interesting.
     
  8. Misty4

    Misty4 Member

    I agree. I was going to post on this thread yesterday, but got busy and didn't have time.

    http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1175/6_35/92849365/p3/article.jhtml?term=
    A woman with full-fledged psychosis, however, has temporarily lost the judgment needed to make this assessment. Very often, a woman with psychosis experiences a frightening sense of merging--she can't differentiate between where she ends and where her baby begins. Psychotic merger is so terrifying that she may try to avoid losing her sense of self by either committing suicide or infanticide, also known as suicide by proxy.

    This was the case with Andrea Yates, whose suicide attempts ended with the deliberate drowning of her children. Perhaps, in her mind, to prevent the "loss of self," she was compelled to kill her children or herself, or both.

    Darlie Routier killed her children over economics

    Diane Downs and Susan Smith both killed their kids for a man. They both had abuse in their history.

    Darlie, Diane and Susan all exhibit narcisstic/borderline personalities with psychotic tendencies. They come from a different mold than Andrea.

    I don't think Patsy had a psychotic episode over religion -- perhaps psychosis due to seeing John molest JBR, but not religion.
     
  9. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Thanks for the input, everyone :)

    I am just brainstorming here with my 'what ifs.'

    For seven years, I thought Patsy was guilty of accidentally killing her child and of covering up her crime. But, some pieces to the puzzle don't fit 100% in that scenario.

    So, I am toying with the pscyhosis scenario, to see if anyone thinks the pieces fit a little better.

    For the record, I don't think Deanna Laney had a documented history of mental illness. Everyone who knew her thought she was 'normal' and happy (except for the religion thing). The murders came as a surprise to everyone in her circle. Her diagnosis of psychosis came only after she was in custody and she was examined by different doctors.

    How do we know Patsy would not be diagnosed with the same illness, if she was arrested and evaluated?

    I think speculation and digging into all of the possibilities will eventually solve this case.

    For example, I thought, 'what if' someone was holding a small child in a specific common way...and bingo the marks line up perfectly with an adult's fingers...and hence :), my 'ring theory.'

    Now, I believe with all my heart, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the mark on JBR's cheek was made by a large cluster ring. (If you haven't seen my ring match-up yet, you can check it out below:)

    http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html

    My gut tells me Patsy did, in fact, shake JBR around in a fit of rage and bash her head on something hard. But, maybe, just maybe that is not what actually happened.

    So, I am throwing out to all of you the possibility that Patsy planned this murder. Thanks again for all of your feedback.

    Please, keep it coming. I think this helps sort through, and probably eliminate, this scenario...
     
  10. Misty4

    Misty4 Member

    Wolfmargirl writes: " For seven years, I thought Patsy was guilty of accidentally killing her child and of covering up her crime. But, some pieces to the puzzle don't fit 100% in that scenario."

    I'm curious. What pieces don't you think fit?
     
  11. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Well, John and Patsy's distance from each other on the 26th, is a good example.

    Whoever did the deed was a little 'off,' of course. Patsy has always seemed to be a bit odd, as I mentioned. I think she is responsible for both the murder and the cover-up.

    However, if John's distance from Patsy on the 26th indicates he knew something about the murder, then what was his role in the murder?

    Was it just an awareness of Patsy's behavior? Did he actually discover what she had done? Or, was he involved in the murder?

    I don't think he was involved in the murder or in authoring the ransom note. Whoever wrote the note was a little wacky, for lack of a better word.

    The RN is so juvenile and ridiculous that I can't see a business-minded CEO taking any part in it whatsoever. Above all, he is a master of spin. I think John would have found the RN as laughable as we do, if he was given the opportunity to examine it. John is shrewd, not foolish...Patsy, on the other hand, is just plain flighty.

    So, maybe he discovered what she did and ordered her to clean up after herself. Maybe he didn't examine her work.

    Or, maybe, those present on the 26th were wrong about the Ramsey's behavior toward each other. That is entirely possible.

    I have always thought John just suspected Patsy's guilt,(starting on the morning of the 26th) without ever confronting her.

    Also, there is the problem with the missing duct tape and cord.

    Now, I think these items were just left-overs from the last of something.

    However, if they are not, then how were they removed from the home? Maybe in Patsy's purse? Possibly.

    Or, if both Ramsey's were involved in the cover-up, maybe John's job was to get rid of the rest of the tape and cord.

    There is also the problem of the accidental strangulation. I think the cord around her neck was just a part of the cover-up. She was probably strangled, out of anger, earlier. The marks on her neck had to be covered up by the cord.

    I certainly think it is possible that JBR was strangled, by Patsy, with a shirt hanging around the child's neck. I think they might have struggled, and Patsy twisted the shirt and yanked, right before the child was thrown against some hard surface.

    There are also other ways a child could be accidentally strangled. Maybe someone grabbed her necklace and yanked her around like a dog, out of anger. Or, maybe, as some posters believe, she was strangled during some sick sex game. There are a few, but limited, possibilities...

    However, if Patsy intentionally strangled JB, then she could have done the initial act with just about anything. Plus, you have to admit it is much more likely that someone would be strangled intentionally rather than accidentally.

    Deanna Laney was told, by God of course, to stone her children to death. I think she had that vision when her youngest boy brought her a stone in the yard. (I could be wrong on the specifics here...)

    Patsy Ramsey had a vision about JBR being dead in a coffin when she received the My Twinn doll in the mail. The Twinn dolls used to come packaged with a large piece of tissue paper covering the head. The dolls had a ribbon tied tightly around their neck in order to keep the tissue in place.

    Could Patsy have really taken this 'vision' literally and thought she was getting a signal from God that she should strangle JBR to death, much like Laney's vision with the stones? I don't know.

    Unless Patsy is officially evaluated, we don't know if she was suffering from psychosis.

    There is also the question of 'Why?'

    I have no doubts that Patsy killed JBR. There could be two reasons why she did it:

    1) Accidentally in a fit of rage, she killed her child.
    or
    2) She planned the murder, much like Laney or Yates because she was delusional.

    I realize I am talking in circles here, and basically talking myself out of my own argument, lol.

    I just think we have to remain open to the possibility that Patsy was psychotic and planned the whole thing.
     
  12. Misty4

    Misty4 Member

    So you think she was strangled first and then hit on the head?
     
  13. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    No, logically, she was hit on the head (or, rather, her head hit something) during a struggle with Patsy.

    However, some medical experts contend that the strangulation came first and that the head wound came second.

    If we believe that Patsy did this and that it was accidental, then there must be some explanation for the accidental strangulation. That explanation could be a shirt around the neck. I came to that conclusion based on Patsy's trouble with the red turtleneck, among other factors.
     
  14. Misty4

    Misty4 Member

    The explanation is that after Patsy accidentally hit JonBenet instead of John (who she was aiming for) they thought she dead. She may have convulsed for a while but basically she was put into a coma from that head blow -- respirations, pulse -- all very shallow. In their panic, they thought she was dead. The strangulation is staging. First, she was strangled by the cord, NOT this garotte we see in the autopsy pictures. (That is evidenced by the autopsy, "A deep ligature furrow encircles the entire neck." The garotte was placed around her neck AFTER she was dead to STAGE the scene -- to make it look like, presto -- a sadistic, sicko pedophile. They staged the scene to hide the fact that JonBenet was molested PRIOR to her murder. The sexual molestation seen at the time she was killed is also staging -- to hide prior abuse.
     
  15. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    That scenario is entirely possible. I just don't think Jonbenet was sexually abused prior to this night.

    The main reason why I have trouble with the prior molestation theory is because children who are sexually abused show very obvious signs of that abuse.

    JBR was exposed to a lot of grown-ups in her six years. Someone, somewhere would have noticed some strange behavior, imo.

    From all accounts, she was a normal, although a bit spoiled, six-year-old child.
     
  16. Spade

    Spade Member

    Sexual Abuse

    From the Bonita Papers:

    In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

    There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia. It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann was not able to see any fresh tears of the hymen which he thought might be due to the lack of detail in the photographs. It was unclear where the blood on the perineum originated, since there were no lacerations visible in these photos. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area.

    McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful
    because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

    McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.

    Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

    In discussing perpetrators of sexual abuse on children, McCann stated that the majority of children this age are molested by someone with whom they have close contact most commonly family members. He explained that if the molester is a stranger or someone else with whom the child is not close, the child will usually tell someone or psychological problems appear which create behavior changes observed by their parents. Common symptoms would be eating disorders, nightmares or a variety of behaviors indicating that something is bothering them. Commencement or increased bedwetting is also commonly seen in sexually abused children. When asked about JonBenet's sexualized behavior during her pageant performances, McCann said that this was not necessarily a sign of abuse, since this was taught behavior for the pageants. Also, with children's exposure to sexually explicit television programs, sexualized behavior is no longer considered to be an indication of possible sexual abuse.

    Dr. Andrew Sirotnack from Children’s Hospital in Denver was also asked to review the medical findings and autopsy photographs. He confirmed McCann's determination of acute vaginal trauma during the assault on JonBenet, but He had not yet concluded that there was chronic abuse. Sirotnack had examined over 2,500 abused children during his career at Children's Hospital and had testified in approximately 50 - 100 criminal trials regarding sexual abuse on children.

    In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,†but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.

    Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage†and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

    All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation.
     
  17. Misty4

    Misty4 Member

    Wolfsmar writes: "The main reason why I have trouble with the prior molestation theory is because children who are sexually abused show very obvious signs of that abuse."

    They do? According to who?
     
  18. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    According to me.

    I taught preschool for a number of years. During that time, one of our teachers had a five-year-old relative who had been abused by the child's mother's boyfriend. At the time, our teacher had custody of the child until her mother could complete parenting classes and clean up her life. The little girl was in counseling as well.

    One day, three little girls, including the abused child went into the bathroom together. One of the children who was in the bathroom with the abused child ran out of the bathroom terrified. It seems that the abused child was attempting to insert an empty paper towel roll into her vagina.

    Now, if we were not already aware of the situation with this child, her behavior would have been an immediate red flag. This behavior is one of the signs we are taught, as care-givers, to look for and report.

    Kids might also appear to be afraid of adult males. Or, they might seem to be overly-outgoing with adults and always attempting to please. Or, they might start wetting the bed (as JBR did). They might become confrontational with children their own age, or with adults.

    I mean, seriously, you certainly know children who are victims of abuse show signs of their abuse, right?
     
  19. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Thanks, Spade, for posting the info from the Bonita Papers. I still don't agree. (sorry :) )


    Well, if a child of that age was masturbating, then that act, in itself, would be evidence of sexual abuse. Six-year-olds don't 'masturbate,' as such. They might touch their genitals because it provides a comforting feeling. But, 'masturbation,' with a sexual goal in mind, does not begin for several more years.

    That being said, I think there could be another rather innocent explanation for JBR's injuries, but I will keep those thoughts on hold at this forum. I have posted my ideas elsewhere and they can be easily located if anyone wants to read them.

    I will say that I think Daphne White or Arianna (sp?) Pugh, or JBR's female cousin (for whom the size 12 panties were purchased) would be able to tell us where the vaginal injuries came from, if they were asked.
     
  20. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    prior strangulation

    I don't think the garrotte could have been added later after a prior strangulation because of the so-called "fingernail marks" that some people like to mention as evidence that JBR struggled. I don't believe for a minute that those are fingernail marks, rather I think they are lines of petechial hemorrhaging. If the garrotte was placed after death and she was strangled by some other method I think the marks would be different.

    I work in an operating room and have often noted the same type of lines on our patients' arms when removing the blood pressure cuff. These cuffs are automatic (they are set to take the blood pressure every few minutes) and can remain on the arm for hours.

    I am confused though that the marks on her neck are horizontal. I thought they would be vertical.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice