Ransom note fingerprints

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Barbara, Jun 6, 2004.

  1. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    I have been searching all the forums, google, etc. Since I am not very computer saavy, I may have missed it or it is not public.

    Is the fingerprint analysis of the ransom note available to the public? Is it available online?

    I have checked so many places, found the 'results' but cannot find any report that describes the processes/chemicals used to analyze the ransom note fingerprint.

    I started a thread on WS regarding this and wrote to a fingerprint/forensic website asking about it, received two responses, but wanted to provide, if possible, what tests were done and by whom.

    Can anyone help?

    Thanks
     
  2. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    I don't know if this answers your question, but I don't think there was anything official ever released. There were no latent finger prints found on the note but I recall there was a partial palm print which was smeared and unidentifable. I can't recall if it was later identified to be Patsy's or not.

    Any Ramsey prints of course, can easily be explained as to have been left when they picked up and read the note, although one would expect a fingerprint and not a palm print.
     
  3. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks Sabrina,

    I have been searching everything and I cannot find anything official either. I just wanted to give the persons I wrote to and who took the time to answer regarding this the courtesy of providing information they asked about.

    It is my understanding also that the original ransom note was destroyed in the process of examination. Is that true?
     
  4. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    hi Babs

    Babs--Steve Thomas talks about this in his books. If I recall correctly the palm print belonged to a certain Miss Patsy, surprise surprise. One of the ten thousand damning things against the Ramseys is how they changed the story of reading the note about a thousand times. When it came out that no finger prints on it, the Patsy said she never picked it up! SHE READ IT FROM A STANDING POSITION!! LOL John Too! Then the note flew to the kitchen table or something, despite the fact that niether one of them ever touched it! it got from the stairwell to the kitchen without touching human hands!
     
  5. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    I think it is correct that the original note was destroyed. I did find this:

    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/07/16-1.html

    Fingerprint tests on Ramsey note inconclusive
    By ALLI KRUPSKI
    Camera Staff Writer
    Wednesday, July 16, 1997

    Authorities have completed fingerprint testing on the ransom note discovered in JonBenet Ramsey's home, but the results don't positively identify the author of the document, sources said Tuesday.

    The Daily Camera previously reported that early examinations of palm print testing of the note - as well as DNA testing of forensic evidence - did not immediately produce conclusive results.

    The Colorado Bureau of Investigation informed investigators about the fingerprint testing results.

    "The problem is even if you find someone's fingerprints on the note, it doesn't mean they wrote the note," a source close to the investigation said. "So there's no real way you can indisputably say who wrote this note, because there are a lot of different explanations for finding fingerprints."

    Pete Mang, an inspector with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, said he couldn't comment on details of the CBI fingerprint analysis report.

    "The results have been turned over to the Boulder Police Department," Mang said Tuesday.




    http://63.147.65.175/news/jon61.htm

    "As investigative leads become available to the detectives," said Mang, "the laboratory has been available to analyze evidence that is probative to the case." Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter said authorities cannot begin testing for fingerprints on the ransom note until the handwriting analysis is completed.

    "There's not a scheduled date on fingerprinting," said Hunter. "It can't take place until the handwriting analysis is finished." Testing for fingerprints on the note has to wait because the note could be destroyed or altered during the process. That issue has been raised in discussions with attorneys for John and Patsy Ramsey, Hunter said."

    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/07arams.html

    "Hunter acknowledged that the Ramseys' experts were allowed to examine the ransom note and the garrote used to kill the little girl. Both items were about to be destroyed through forensic testing, Hunter said.

    The note would be dipped in a solution to locate finger prints and other evidence. The garrote would be untied so investigators could study its parts more closely. "

    http://www.acandyrose.com/04102000gma.htm

    Vargas: Were John and Patsy Ramsey's fingerprint on the ransom note?

    Thomas: No.

    Vargas: No?

    Thomas: No.

    Vargas: (VO) But if they found the note and picked it up, Thomas asks why their fingerprints were not on it. Did they say whether or not they had picked it up to read it?

    Thomas: I tried to pin Patsy Ramsey down at the time of our first interview with them. Did you grab the note? Did you pick up the note? Did you clutch it in your hand and read it and run upstairs with it? Who moved it to the hardwood floor? And I couldn't get an answer to that. She didn't recall.

    Vargas: Is it possible that the parents could have handled the note and not left their fingerprints? Or that the paper for some reason didn't retain that kind of print?

    Thomas: Certainly. But then I think the argument can be made, then when the sergeant touched the same pad, he left a fingerprint on it. When the CBI examiner touched the same pad, he left a fingerprint on it. Patsy had left previous fingerprints on that pad, five that we identified. So that remains one of the mysteries in this case. How come there's no identifiable fingerprints on this thing if one or both parents handled and grasped it that morning?

    Vargas: Do you find that suspicious?

    Thomas: Well, suspicious. It's just a big question mark that we'll — we'll never have an answer to, absent somebody confessing in this case.
     
  6. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks for the help my friends.

    Like everything about this case, the ABSENCE of intruder evidence and the ABSENCE of Ramsey evidence where there SHOULD be Ramsey evidence (like their fingerprints on the note and the flashlight) are enough for me to believe the Ramseys are responsible for the death of JonBenet.

    Just one of the many things that convince me.
     
  7. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Remember also that Patsy never took a shower that night and greeted the cops the next day in the same outfit she attended the Whites party in the previous evening. So Patsy didn't shower, obviously, and likewise would most likely have had an abundance of oil from her skin on her hand when she picked up (or didn't pick up) the note. That oil and sweat is what forms fingerprints.


    It's all in the details. Now ask yourself if you found a three page ransom note on the stairs, wouldn't you pick the damn thing up to read it? Nobody in the media is talking about these little details anymore.
     
  8. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Like most normal parents, not only would I have picked up the note, but my fingerprints would be the least of what they would find. More than likely, the average parent would have left the note crinkled from the stress while reading it, grasping it tighter and tigher by the time the third page came around and for me, tear stains, saliva from screaming, crying, etc.

    Granted, it's all speculation, but IMO the truth.
     
  9. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Well Patsy didn't come up with the assinine story that she never picked up the note until after they found out her prints weren't on it. OOOPSY! Unfortuantely she told the police on the phone that morning that the kidnappers were SBTC, which was on the third page of the note--so the police were kind of curious how, if she never actually picked it up and read it, how did she know what was on page three? So of course then the story was that the clutter-consciousness killer neatly laid all three pages out side by side on the stairwell for convenient, vertical reading in case the parents couldn't be bothered to actually bend over and pick up the document which detailed the kidnapping of their daughter. I mean why expend the energy?

    This neat-freak killer also returned Patsy's pen and paper to the proper holding places by the phone.

    Come on guys--this is LUDICROUS. Not even funny.
     
  10. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    I thought she read that to the 911 operator while John was kneeling on the floor reading it, also not touching it, over his shoulder.

    I get confused sometimes with the assinine stories. They seem to blend together into TOTAL incoherent Bullsh!t

    It is ludicrous.
     
  11. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Well that could be--I lost interest in their creative explanations about seven years ago. Now for a brief recap:

    If you wake up and your daughter is missing and there's a ransom note on the staircase:

    1. Don't read it

    2. Don't bother even picking it up

    3. Don't wake up your son in the next room--simply assume the killer is long gone and your son never heard or saw anything

    4. Arrange a private flight out of the state where you can do the most good for the investigation.
     
  12. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    On the other hand

    Maybe I'm being too harsh. If you wrote the note I suppose there's no need to actually read it.
     
  13. Nikeo

    Nikeo Member

    Pad, Paper, Note?

    Vargas: Were John and Patsy Ramsey's fingerprint on the ransom note?

    Thomas: No.

    Vargas: No?

    Thomas: No.

    Vargas: (VO) But if they found the note and picked it up, Thomas asks why their fingerprints were not on it. Did they say whether or not they had picked it up to read it?

    Thomas: I tried to pin Patsy Ramsey down at the time of our first interview with them. Did you grab the note? Did you pick up the note? Did you clutch it in your hand and read it and run upstairs with it? Who moved it to the hardwood floor? And I couldn't get an answer to that. She didn't recall.

    Vargas: Is it possible that the parents could have handled the note and not left their fingerprints? Or that the paper for some reason didn't retain that kind of print?

    Thomas: Certainly. But then I think the argument can be made, then when the sergeant touched the same pad, he left a fingerprint on it. When the CBI examiner touched the same pad, he left a fingerprint on it. Patsy had left previous fingerprints on that pad, five that we identified. So that remains one of the mysteries in this case. How come there's no identifiable fingerprints on this thing if one or both parents handled and grasped it that morning?

    Vargas: Do you find that suspicious?

    Thomas: Well, suspicious. It's just a big question mark that we'll — we'll never have an answer to, absent somebody confessing in this case.


    Why is it that Thomas uses the term "Pad" when talking about prints being left. I wish he would have used the term paper or note when talking about prints being left on the "pad". Call me a nitpicker, but leaving finger prints on a pad, paper, or the note are three different things. Seems to me from his answer that prints were able to be left on the "Pad", but prints could not be found on the note or the paper. I thought that one of the police officers touched the note and his fingerprints were not left either. Thomas is comparing oranges to apples when he says "pad". He should have clearly stated whether it was the paper or the pad that had prints when the various people touched it. To me, it was a very ambiguous answer. (A pad means to me the cardboard backing that holds the paper together).
     
  14. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    I think, but I am not positive that Thomas refers to the pad the paper came from. Seemingly, Patsy's prints were on that "pad", but the note itself that came from the "pad" of paper had no Ramsey's prints on it.

    I could be mistaken, but that's the way I interpret the interview.

    And I do agree with Thomas. Very suspicious.
     
  15. Quinn

    Quinn Member

    LOL I LOVE THE ADVICE YOU GIVE ALL THE READERS.
     
  16. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Listen to Bob and you will learn.
     
  17. Nikeo

    Nikeo Member

    Hey Bob

    You left out the most telling one to me, leave the body of your precious six year old child to be carted off in a black body bag on a gurney by total strangers and you are no where to be found. They would have had to put me in jail to keep me away from my little girl's body until I saw it personally to the mortuary or morgue.

    Originally Posted by BobC
    Well that could be--I lost interest in their creative explanations about seven years ago. Now for a brief recap:

    If you wake up and your daughter is missing and there's a ransom note on the staircase:

    1. Don't read it

    2. Don't bother even picking it up

    3. Don't wake up your son in the next room--simply assume the killer is long gone and your son never heard or saw anything

    4. Arrange a private flight out of the state where you can do the most good for the investigation.
     
  18. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Come on Nik

    That would have interfered with the plane trip to Atlanta.
     
  19. Nikeo

    Nikeo Member

    Oh right Bob,

    I forgot, they had to get home to be with family, etc. Maybe I am wrong, but usually when someone dies in your family, the other family members come to you, not visa versa. It makes my blood run cold that they wanted to leave JonBenet in that city all alone. Yes, she was gone, but I know I would not want to leave the city where my child was laying cold in a morgue until she had a "proper burial", that they were so "concerned" about.

     
  20. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    uh uh

    Oh I can make your blood run even colder. I can tell you it is a fact that John Ramsey told people connected to the case that he wanted to split to Atlanta to "protect his family." Now a reasonable person might ask how people could possibly feel safer than being in a house swarming with cops, but don't sweat the details.

    A short time later, JR told a person in his entourage that he wanted to "protect" his family FROM THE POLICE.

    This coming from a man whose daughter was just murdered by "a small foriegn faction."

    Terrorists kill your daughter and you are afraid of the police.

    Wake up call, folks: Can any of you case junkies produce one statement from John Ramsey expressing fear of a terrorist organization which, according to a letter found IN HIS HOME, killed his daughter? I mean show me just ONE.

    Ever.
     
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