Window Screens- All that stood between police and JonBenet's body

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by JustinCase, Sep 4, 2004.

  1. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    If the police moved these window screens that morning, I am absolutely positive that they would have found JonBenet's body laying behind it.

    Compare these two photo's- the first is the crime scene photo of the boiler room, the window screens are present here but the freezer is still visible through them. The second photo was taken by jameson and it illustrates a much different placement of the freezer, it's farther into the space than it is and much more of it was visible in photo #1.
    Compare the position of the freezer based on how much is in view at this point and how far it's been dragged from the wall's inside there; it's quite a distance from where it is in jamesons picture. There would have been ample room to lay JonBenet behind there.


    I pointed this out a while ago but I keep coming back to this because it's the one place JonBenet's body could have been before it was moved into the wine cellar a few feet away. Fleet White has admitted to looking in there early in the morning on December 26 and he did not see anything white like John said caught his eye as soon as he looked in there.

    There are 6 screens that I can see, versus the stacks of them in the room that JonBenet's body was found in; it seems like these were taken from the wine cellar and placed here to obscure the view into that space where the freezer sat. The police probably saw the screens and automatically thought they hadn't moved since they were removed sometime in the fall and left there carelessly, like everything else in that mess they call the basement.






     
  2. cherub

    cherub Member

    very good thought .
     
  3. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    JustinCase,

    I have a tendancy to be very dense. So with that in mind what are you trying to shwo us? That "boiler" room is not where the body was found because there is a window right there by the water heater. The room she was found in was windowless. So I'm confused as to what you are trying to show. And the second pix doesn't come through so there is nothing to compare it to.

    After I posted this I did get the pix to come in. Sorry. But I'm still confused as to what you are showing us. Like I said I'm very dense at times.
     
  4. LurkerXIV

    LurkerXIV Moderator

    Me, Too.

    I don't get it. The body was found in the "wine cellar" (ROFL! That's Ramsyese for junk room full of old paint cans and Christmas decorations.)
     
  5. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    Sorry about the delay guys, I've been helping friends of mine move their store to another location all this week.

    What I'm trying to prove is this,

    Fleet White has admitted to looking in the room that JonBenet's body was found, he said it was too dark in there to see and he couldn't find the lightswitch so he closed the door and looked elsewhere. John Ramsey said he looked in that room and at that instant he saw the white blanket and he 'knew it was her.' Fleet told police that Johns scream came seconds before he turned the light on.

    John has also admitted to spending a VERY short period of time alone in the basement between 7am and 9am, he said he was looking for an area that the intruder could have entered the house; this is when he said he discovered that train room window open but he said he closed it.


    I think it's possible that JonBenet's body was hidden in the space that the freezer sat in, John could've gone down there to move her because the police activity in the house steadily increased for the first few hours.

    I think they called 911 to report her missing because they were afraid of people getting suspicious about JonBenet's absence. I don't believe that either John or Patsy realized just how central their house would be in the kidnapping scenario, I belive the scenario was chosen to reduce the amount of exposure the police had to the home.

    *Edited to add
    Melody Stanton said she heard a scream but couldn't say an exact time, just that it occured between midnight and 2am. Melody's husband Luther said he didn't hear the scream but was awakened by the sound of 'metal scraping on concrete.' The metal scraping on concrete could have been the freezer being moved out, scraping across the concrete floor.

    **Both of these statements were made more than once, and later they were recanted, we can't say for sure, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that they were either paid to keep quiet or they were scared into staying quiet. The Ramseys had enough money to keep more than just the Stantons quiet...
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2004
  6. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Justincase,

    I think I see what you ae saying now. But I have to tell you that after looking very carefully at the 2 pictures I'm not at all convinced that what you are saying is the case. The two pictures are not identical. There are variations on the water heater and several of the cords and pipes around it. Then after I carefully looked over and over at the spot you are calling the freezer in the picture #73, all I see is a black shadow that could be the freezer. But when you measure the distance from the edge of that black shadow to the pipe on the wall to the left of the window the distance is the same. Now all of this supposes that I'm looking at the correct spot you are looking at. So what I'm saying is that the "freezer" in the top photo is in the same place as the freezer in the bottom photo. When were both photos taken? Does anyone know? I'm not real sure I'm looking at a freezer is what is my puzzlement. But I like how you think.
     
  7. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    zoomama,

    I understand what you mean, and thank you for responding anyway,
    I'll try to explain to see if that makes it any easier for you to catch it, I looked at that pic so many times before I actually saw it behind there. If you like, you can open the images in any photo program or even MS paint or Imaging, double the size of the photo and then change the contrast level a little bit to cast some more light in there.

    If you look right above the word "Scene" in the first pic, you'll be looking at the black area of the window screen, looking through that area is the freezer; once you see the black line (near the top of the screen) which is the seal for the lid. You won't be able to miss it. Based on how much of the freezer that can actually be seen, I came to the conclusion that the freezer is moved out toward the water heater in the crime scene pic. It appears that the freezer is sitting flush with the wall below the window rather than the oter walls inside that little space.

    In Pic #2, only a small area of the freezer is visible, it appears to be sitting about two feet from the wall below the window, and about two feet from the corner of the wall.

    I don't see too many variances between the pics, could you let me in on em?
    :crosseyed See what I mean about not seeing something until it basically jumps up and bites you in the butt?
     
  8. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Disappearing graphics

    I note that the above link to jameson's boiler-room graphic no longer works.

    I saved it and you can link to mine. Here are the two URLS again:-

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    Thanks Jayelles.

    I tried the link a few moments ago and it's still working for me, is this because I have this pic saved to my hard drive as well?:poke:
     
  10. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    JustinCase,

    You know I think I see what you are describing through the screen...the black rubber seal for the freezer. I think that is what you are looking at.

    OK here is what I was referring to as the pics not being exactely the same. The differences are minor but maybe not.

    The PVC pipe on the right side of the pix coming down from the ceiling has an area of corrosion on it that begins at the level of the middle of the yellow sticker on the the water heater in Jamasion's pix only.

    The right lower corner with the white bent pipe left open is seen in only one pix and there is a very dark stain on the wall behind it on the wall in that same pix by Jams. I realize that the pix dont' have exactly the same camera angle shot but that stain at least should be seen in both pix and it isn't. The wall in the crime scene photo is very clean and white.

    This one is hard to see. There is a small triangluar object to the right of the very large air vent in the window almost near the bottom corner of the window framing at the top left of the water heater. I can't tell what it is. and if you look at that same triangular object and follow it down the edge of the water heater there is a cord or similiar object seen in two places. The bottom one is just above the letter "N" in Not.

    I don't think that any of these variations make any difference to the murder. It is just that the pix were taken at different times by different folks. And perhaps your theory of hiding the body behind that very same freezer is note worthy. Very good theory.
     
  11. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    JustinCase,

    After all that picture scrutiny this question popped into my mind. Why hide the body at all? What was the purpose of that? It could have been found had the search been done in a more diligent manner. We will never know if the body was hidden and later moved or not. But again I ask why was it hidden in the first place. What was the killer thinking by hiding her body then moving it so it would be found? I can't get a handle on that question at all. Or did the killer kide the body and then someone else moved it to be found. Is that where the 2 parents come into this thing. One parent does the killing and hides the body. The second parent finds the body and moves it so it will be found. I surely dont' get that at all. Does anyone?
     
  12. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    Hallalujah! That's it!!

    Those are about the same differences that I found too, accept I thought it was rust on the window hinge.-->["There is a small triangluar object to the right of the very large air vent in the window almost near the bottom corner of the window framing at the top left of the water heater."]

    I noticed the corroded (SP?) area too, what could that be from? It looks like it's freshly painted in the crime scene pic, but yet its all corroded (SP?) within a couple years? That's really strange, wouldn't it be weird if JonBenet's ghost was still in that basement and she peeled it? Eeery.

    The pipe that extends from the ceiling in front of the window extends all the way down to the floor, it's the same for both pic's so I'll use it as a guide to show you how far back the freezer is sitting in jamesons pic (maybe 2 1/2 feet) than it is in the crime scene pic. Look at the freezer's location in jamesons pic, it's really far away from this pole, yet in the crime scene pic it's much closer, within a foot and a half, I would say. The bottom part of the window screen actually appears to be touching it.
     
  13. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    JustinCase,

    Ha Ha, at last we are the same page! I just now looked at the photos again and I think in Jams photo that large stain on the wall is a chair like a green plastic lawn chair with something like a paper of some kind on the seat of the chair. Also I'd like to say that for all the high priced value of that house that is sure a ticky tac system. The base of the wall to the left of the water heater sure looks all crumbly and dirty in Jams pix. And I don't know how the laws are in Colorado but here in CA we can't have a water heater on the floor. It has to be raised on a non flamable base (metal) at least 3 ft from the ground and then tied to the wall with metal strapping. Ok so I'm done for now.

    Except to ponder why the body was hidden. I just don't get it. JBR would be missed that morning of course. So eventually she would be found in the house. Why did the killer hide her body? Or did the killer really hide her body at all? It is puzzling that Fleet White says that John screamed before he turned on the light to "discover" the body. Was that because now the world would know she really is dead? Or just that he is shocked to see her dead little body for the first time and know who did this terrible thing?
     
  14. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    Whoa, I didn't see that chair there! I wonder what that is on the seat?

    Either, jamesons a really crappy photographer, or she intentionally took the photo with the chair half in it to provoke thought; much like her fireplace poker 'thing'.

    Okay, I know nothing about boilers and water heaters and anything else that needs maintaining in a basement; I'm currently living in my third apartment EVER and don't plan to move into a house with a basement for this reason.

    However, from your above description, I could only assume that the area surrounding the water heater would be HOT or very warm, right? That window contained a vent to the outside that wasn't attached to anything, so that could've been a 'remedy' for the heat problem. John did say that they sometimes left the windows open down there because it got so warm, so maybe they put her down there to try to warm her because she was so cold and rigid; or they could've put her down there in the heat to speed up the decomposition process???

    I think the body was hidden [the first time-Behind the freezer] before 911 was called, I think Patsy did it, and I think it was done because she panicked about what to do. She created this dramatic kidnapping scenario that was supposed to direct attention away from the house, but she wanted to be sure that even just the Whites, and others she invited didn't go wandering around looking and actually find her.

    Patsy needed enough time to get the body upstairs and into the garage to the Jeep Cherokee, she added all that crap about going to the bank and bringing an attache and all the warnings about bank authorities as a way to get him out of the house.

    My biggest problem is finding a reason for all those people who came over, the pattern of accusations surrounded many people; but not the Fernies, not Rector Rol, not the Beufs. All of these people were members of St. Johns, and referred to as 'close friends', as were the Whites, yet they threw the Whites into the pool of suspects; I don't think the Whites were members of St. Johns.

    There was a NEED to have the police there, maybe Patsy was afraid of what John might do when he found out, she did invite more than six other people over there.

    I think John's scream was inconsistent because it was faked, he knew he had to produce some kind of emotion this second time he's discovered his daughters body, I don't think it hit him properly because he'd already been hit. Whether it was the scenario I suggested or another that includes him knowing she was dead. And I think he reacted less dramatically because it wasn't some monster who did it, it was Patsy, I think he had a hard time putting her into a monster role because he'd dominated her for so long. JMO
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2004
  15. Zman

    Zman Banned

    The Note

    I just don't get the "note". Is Patsy Ramsey really this smart and foward thinking? I don't think so. Why risk writing a ransome note yourself? Why not just open a door and call the police in the morning and just say she's missing/run away? WHY WRITE THE NOTE AT ALL? Does someone think that the police a less likely to search the house if she's kidnapped? Do they know this for sure?
     
  16. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    Welcome to FFJ Zman,

    Here's my thought on the note:

    The 'note' is one more reason I believe Patsy was the lone actor in the crime and was covering up not only because of the police or investigators, but she also covered it up and presented the kidnapping scenario to John; after reading all those references that only she would be stupid enough to include, he called her bluff and told her to call the police. With the presence of a note, it's possible that he was skeptical and believed that it was nothing more than a creative way for Patsy to get more money than what was routinely deposited into her expense account.

    Maybe she wrote the note to tell John off for something she was really, really, angry about. Maybe she was unable to accept responsibility for killing JonBenet so she took steps to lay the blame on John. By incorporating his company into the letter she felt it would be even more his fault: if the killer had been someone who worked for him or that he otherwise dealt with, it would surely make him feel all the more responsible for dealing with them and exposing his family to them. Also, By making it nearly impossible for him to comply with the demands of the note writer, I think she also used this as a way to blame John further for not following the note instructions exactly.

    Before the police arrived she called friends over because she knew he wasn't buying it, he was growing suspicious and she was truly afraid of what he might do to her had she told him with nobody around to protect her and witness his response. In this scenario, I don't see him being told by anyone but Rector Rol, I think Patsy told Rol and he told John in privacy so there could be no angry reaction toward her; only forgiveness because the bible says it's imperative to forgive others trespasses.

    There was evidence of sexual abuse that occured the night of the murder, apparently by a broken paintbrush handle, but there was no sexual pleasure derrived for either the victim or the killer so I'm more prone to thinking this was just one more "message" to John. Maybe she knew about it and never said anything until that night and used that to her advantage by saying she'd expose him as a child molester and plead insanity because she felt like she was sending JonBenet to a better place.
     
  17. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    JustinCase,

    Back to the water heater for a moment. Even though they hold hot water and have a heating element (gas I think in this case) the heater stays cool to the touch. It has to otherwise all the heat from that hot water would dissipate and become wasted energy. And that vent in the window may be for the gas exhaust from the heater. Now that is not to say that that room couldn't be warmer than others down in the basement. But don't forget that besides the water heater they also had a freezer in the same room. And the freezer isn't cold to the touch either except that it is made of metal like the water heater. Clear as mud?
     
  18. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

    Our hot water heater is electric and sits directly on a concrete floor in a little, closet-like, room located under a staircase.

    The part about calling their church friends has always intrigued me, also Smit's conversation with John about his faith. I can't see either parent confessing to Rector Rol that morning, if they had I have doubts he would have declared them innocent at the service, if indeed he did declare that. I think Rol and Smit were deceived.

    "Does someone think that the police (are) less likely to search the house if she's kidnapped?"

    I think that. If the report had been that she was missing (without a ransom note) I think the house would be searched immediately, but as the report was that she was kidnapped, ransom note in hand, there wasn't an immediate and complete search of the house.

    I surely think that the parents knew that morning their child was dead and not kidnapped.
     
  19. Elle

    Elle Member

    JIC,


    I can see why you are saying JonBenét's body may have been behind the screens because there are many of them, but I can't go along with this, because by the time JonBenét's body was found at approximately 1:00 pm or shortly after, there was already a smell of decay from the body, and I feel that the smell of death would have been present when the police checked it out.

    A few posters feel it may have been in a freezer which was down in the basement. Wherever she was, her arms were above her head which means she had to be lying in some space that allowed her body to be stretched out like that.

    You will remember that only one wrist had a cord loop around it, and rigor mortis had already set in. Maybe the cord was looped around a pipe and she was flat on the floor .... and yet we have John Walsh's statement on the LKL show that John Ramsey had cut JonBenét down. No one has been able to find out any more about this from John Walsh (?).

    So many questions unanswered.
     
  20. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    Zoomama,
    Thanks for clearing that up for me, one of my weaknesses is making assumptions based on very little evidence; it can get me into trouble but more often than not, I find myself learning stuff that I wouldn't be learning if I hadn't found the forums.

    I got Dr. Lee's book this morning too! I skimmed through and was looking at the pic's, the pic of JonBenet's hair and the cords is one that I've never seen before; that scrunchie (sp?) in her hair seems really odd, way too big for the amount of hair that it's holding...

    I don't know for sure what happened, but based on the actions witnessed that morning, Patsy was heavily influenced by her religious beliefs and even cried out<!--StartFragment --> [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead, please raise my baby!" [/font]
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]She placed a lot of trust in Rector Rol and she would tell you today that she was healed by God; even though she had a healing ceremony on September 14 of 92 or 93, two days later she claims to have had a CT scan that showed no sign of cancer. Had this been the case, she wouldn't have needed to fly to Maryland to finish the cancer treatments. I[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]t was Rector Rol and other members of St. John's vestry who officiated the ceremony. I know for sure that John Fernie was a member of the Vestry in 1996 and that Barbara Fernie was listed as an Accolyte, but I don't know what that is. [/font]
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I just thought they all could've responded to a situation that Rol was already well aware of through his personal contact with them, maybe she'd already told him because she was unclean at that time; sinners are unclean and if she did indeed kill JonBenet out of rage, that is considered a sin. But as with everything, there was room for forgiveness and the church members huddled around them to protect them from man's law; Patsy did quite a lot of praying and speaking to God, right in front of people who probably didn't understand that she was praying for forgiveness not the safe return of her child. [/font]
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Priscilla White basically had to drag Patsy to the livingroom by her hand, and then she laid herself over top of the white blanket that John had so 'lovingly' and carefully placed over her shortly before that. She would[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]n't have laid herself across JonBenet like that if the blanket hadn't been put there by John, possibly because she knew that JonBenet's pants were urine stained and that the stench of death was too much to bear at that distance.[/font]
    [/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I just don't buy that Rector Rol, John and Barbara Fernie and Dr. Beuf all stood there and saw all this and thought it was normal behaviour. The solarium and the livingroom aren't on opposite sides of the house, Patsy acted like she didn't know what was going on but if they were in the solarium when John brought the body up, they knew she was dead so Patsy's dramatic display should've happened then. Maybe she waited until the blanket was laid across her.[/font]

    Exactly my thoughts, and I think this was the mindframe on the morning of Dec. 26. I think they went through different scenarios and chose the one they felt would direct attention away from the house, and the note did say that JonBenet would be returned unharmed if the demands were met; but at the same time, there were so many demands and instructions, like the stray dog remark; it would've been virtually impossible to carry out the requests.

    I don't know... Looking at where the body could have been placed back there in relation to where the officer/photographer could find a place to stand and take the pic, it seems like they were probably far enough away that the smell wouldn't have emanated (SP?) that far.

    The amount of time between the search of the basement in the morning, the time the photo was taken (possibly same time as the search) and the discovery of the body around 1pm, is roughly seven hours. Depending on the temperature of the basemnt, the warmer it was, the more susceptible the body would be to the beginning stages of the decomposition process; if it was colder the process would've been prolonged. The pineapple in her stomach suggests that she ingested it about 2 hours before her death, and her death may have occured between midnight and 2am.

    If she was killed at midnight, six hours later the police were called, and if she were killed at 2am, the police were phoned 4 hours later. Not a whole lot of time to decompose and emanate an odor. But, by the time her body was found, about 12 hours after she'd been killed, the smell should've been present at a distance.

    I don't know the dimensions of the freezer but it seems like with the position of her arms, she wouldn't have fit in a standing position, but then again, there is a period after rigor mortis where the body can 'relax' or release from a position they were in when they died or were placed in shortly afterward and left until rigor mortis set in. A body could be in the fetal position on it's side one moment and then be found laying on it's back the next, moving fluids and gases in the body can sometimes also cause corpses to jump up and gasp.

    Here's what I see-
    Picture her lying on the floor with her hands and head pointing toward the end where the screens are piled, there appears to be enough room for her to have been placed back there on either her back or her side, even laying the way she was, there was enough room to accomodate her; her head and/or feet probably would have been exposed but that's what the screens were for.

    The screens appeared so innocent there, and the police wouldn't have wedged their way past screens that were probably removed from windows more than a couple of months ago, looking for evidence of a crime that occured the night before.

    YES!! YES!! YES!! Maybe she WAS tied to something, that one loop was REALLY big wasn't it? I've always thought she could've been tied up somewhere (Her bed frame, that curtain tie really urks me now) You are a freaking genius lady!!
     
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