To Understand Patsy We Must Understand Kiddie Pageants

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Tricia, Jan 26, 2005.

  1. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    It's important for those of us who think Patsy Ramsey had a hand in the death of her daughter to really understand Patsy.

    To understand Patsy we have to understand the world of beauty pageants. Why? Because to understand Patsy we need to find out just how important the appearance of a good family, of a perfect daughter, truly was. It was everything to her.

    Do you think if someone "accidentally" smashed JonBenet's head, to the extent of creating a huge hole in her skull, that Patsy would admit this? I don't think she would. I think she would create a staged scene to make it look like a monster would have done this. Patsy is not a monster. She must be perfect. So must JonBenet.

    Back to the pageant world.

    This is a good article to start out with.

    http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/0101110.html

    Tiaras R Us
    Very Young Beauty Queens

    Some distress here: on the stage, the two-year-old girl in the pink-sequined dress has begun to cry. The tears are ruining her mascara. Her mother appears, grabs the girl, and tells her to stop crying. Still, the tears continue. The mother takes the tot by the hand and drags her off. Meanwhile an announcer offers some background: this young contestant hails from Massachusetts, and "her life's ambition is to bring happiness to all who come in contact with her."

    This scene played itself out at a child beauty pageant that Hilary Levey '02 observed last year. With a small grant from the Harvard College Research Fund, Levey made a sociological study of these competitions for children age six and younger and presented her findings at the American Sociological Association meetings in Washington, D.C., in August. Her ethnographic research describes a world that has appeared to the public as an odd subculture on the margins of society--particularly since the 1996 murder of six-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey. Instead, says Levey, the pageants actually reinforce mainstream American values. "They're teaching children what it takes to be successful in society," she says. "There is a winner, and a certain order of finish. People who work hard, who practice hard, and do certain things can win. Children are learning these lessons at ages three, four, and five. Apparently it's important to our society that kids learn these things that early."

    Levey went to six contests around New England and in Florida, interviewed 35 mothers of contestants, and collected 41 questionnaire responses from mothers, seeking to discover why people enter their daughters (and a very few sons) in pageants. Her entrée to this arcane, often closed world was eased by the fact that her mother, Pam Eldred, won the Miss America title in 1970. (Levey herself entered regional ballet competitions as a child, but, she says, "Mom never let me do pageants.")

    Child beauty pageants clearly cater to the ambitions of parents, not children. "Kids of this age aren't really choosing to participate; they will do what their parents tell them to do," Levey says. "Sometimes you have parents carrying babies who can't walk onto the stage." Five pageants demanded to know the child's "ambition/goal in life," a question typically answered by the parent; as one mother bluntly remarked, "What does a five-year-old know?" Some parents have built trophy rooms in their homes. The hardware can accumulate, since each entrant normally gets a crown or trophy simply for participating, and the average child in Levey's study went to five pageants per year.

    "Stage mother" behavior is not unusual; as a young contestant does her talent routine, her mother may stand behind the judges and act out the entire performance along with the daughter. Mothers and daughters sometimes wear matching outfits. But inconsistencies crop up in other areas: Levey reports, for example, that although pageants enforce norms of slenderness, the majority of pageant mothers are overweight.

    *snip*
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    I encourage everyone to reseach this topic. I think the mothers of the pageant kids is where we need to focus.
     
  2. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    I have a few ideas on mommies and kiddie pageants. I always liked to dress my little girls up and do their hair in pigtails or braids, when it got long enough. I admit I appreciated it when others told me how cute my girls were, because I thought so, too. I think I am a pretty normal mother in that I never took it any further than that. My girls were clean and buffed, their hair shining, their shoes polished, and they always wore cute little outfits that were spanking clean.

    But that was as far as my vanity went with my girls. They also liked to play outside in their play clothes, make mud pies, play with the animals...they never asked once to be put on display and perform in front of a crowd. Ask my two-year-old what her amibitions were, and she'd probably have told you you looked funny. My niece's two year old would tell you to go to your room.

    The thing about beauty pageants is that it's not about the kids - it's about their parents - mostly, their mothers. For whatever reason, be it status, money, ego, pride, fame...these mothers put their little girls through so much hell to fulfill their own agendas, I think. I don't see anything wrong with entering your child in the prettiest baby contest or a local little Miss whatever. It could even be fun for the child - once. It's when it becomes the will of the mother rather than fun for the child that it becomes wrong, IMO.

    Patsy said that JonBenet enjoyed the pageants, and maybe she did at first. But, kids will generally try to please their parents. Patsy made a big fuss about the pageants, dressing JBR up in frilly dresses and high heeled shoes. I'm quite sure JB didn't have a lot to say about any of it - she performed, because her mother and grandmother wanted her to perform. If Patsy had never entered JB in a pageant, I think it's safe to say JB would never have asked to be in one.

    It's like anything else in life - a little bit of anything usually goes a long way. If a mother is so inclined to display her pretty little baby just for the fun of it, so be it. My babies were not made for public consumption that way, but I don't fault others who want to share how cute their babies are with others. There is a line that shouldn't be crossed with little kids, I think, who really have no voice of their own and are under the control of their parents' wills. No one can tell me two year olds enjoy being gussied up and paraded before judges in a pageant. Want to burn a kid out early - do what Patsy did - enter your little girl in every pageant you can. I doubt very much that JB really liked it after a while. She probably would rather have been allowed to just play with her dog or ride her bike like normal kids.

    I don't see much difference between what Patsy was doing with JBR and what the Jacksons did to their little singing kids or what the parents of child stars did to their children. We've seen the results of taking a child's childhood away from them. Just look at Michael Jackson...

    That's about all I have to say except obsession is never a good thing. I think Patsy was obsessed with having JonBenet be the prettiest, the sexiest, the winniest pageant girl ever.
     
  3. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    Tricia, Thank you for posting this, I think this is a huge part of understanding Patsy as well, afterall, she lied about how many JonBenet participated in to the world by saying "That was only just a couple Sunday afternoons."

    WY- Excellent post,
    Right on the money honey!
    PS: I wish I was one of YOUR kids!:violin:

    Remeber Dr. Beuf saying she didn't do them all that often? He lied about that for sure because in October 1996, when JonBenet was hit on her left cheek with a golf club and was scarred, she was immediately (like the same day) sent to a Denver plastic surgeon who apparently said there was no damage to her cheekbone and therefore no reason to do the surgery.

    Wouldn't Dr. Beuf have had to have referred JonBenet to a plastic surgeon because she was so young?
     
  4. Voyager

    Voyager Active Member

    What is Normal?

    I think that it is normal for all mother's to take pride in their children whether the emphasis is on appearance, behavior, talent, or intelligence.....Normal mothers all want success for their children and the above categories tend to define success in our society....

    Now, no matter what we mothers (both parents really) say about it, we all experience some satisfaction in the reflected glory of our children (grandchildren too, I would think!)....They have after all inherited our genes haven't they? The success of our offspring as defined by our society refects their good breeding through their inherited genes and their proper training and nurturing at the hands of their parents.....So in essence, if our children are beautiful, behave properly and exhibit their talent and intelligence then it is generally assumed that we are a successful parent/family :curtsey: ....I don't think many people would argue with this premise....

    Surely it is, as WY has indicated, a matter of degree....Anything carried to the extreme can be both damaging and dangerous....Some parents obcess over their children, but who is to say what is obcession and overzealousness and what is careful guidance, talent and intelligence developement, and helping a child to be "all he or she can be"?.....Certainly, as with anything else, it varies with the individual, and when it comes to one's own child, few parents want to be criticized or controlled....

    I do remember reading that a small group of Patsy's close friends told authorities that they had plans to confront Patsy about how controlling and pushy she had become with JonBenet about performing and concerning her overly intense involvement of JonBenet in the pageant world....Was it Pricilla White who spoke of organizing this private intervention to confront Patsy with her obsessive need to show off JonBenet publicly? It might be interesting to find out from someone who knows Pricilla or group of friends who were going to intervene on this issue after the holidays....Anyone have contacts?

    When we involve our children in public social activities, lessons, sports, competitive intellectual pursuits (math and science fairs for example) or encourage them to join the school choir, or drama club, we are in a way putting them on exibition and saying to them, "learn to succeed and fit in".....And we take joy in watching others appreciate their youthful beauty and talent....Again, I am the first to say that we not only want to know ourselves that our children can succeed but we also, whether we conciously admit it or not, want others to applaud their success....


    As my own children were growing up they were, from an early age, interested in performing....From neighborhood plays, and choir at school, to ballet and gymnastics, magician performances, to paid performances in TV commercials, and media, to modeling......As it evolved, our children were just blessed with stage presence and enjoyed and sought out performing....

    I am sure there were probably people in our community who thought that I qualified as a "stage mom" since our children were often on stage in one event or another.....And maybe especially because by the age of 3 for our son and 7 for our daughter they had a professional talent agent.....

    Now here is the difference between a "stage mom" like Patsy and her pageant buddies and me.....I did not choose which of these activities our kiddos engaged in necessarily.....Over the years we have been privileged to have the time and energy to provide them with a social structure that offered the availabilty of many different sorts of activities and where they were exposed to many different sorts of people and opportunities.....

    When they would get excited about something like ballet or gymnastics, we would let them give it a try at learning and performing....Then when the time came when they lost interest or wanted to spend their time elsewhere after due consideration, we encouraged them to choose new activities....One season it would be science fairs and the next soccer....

    What about the professional talent agent? Yeah, I know that sounds suspicious....LOL....Well, that happened by accident.....This very nice, long time local talent agent called me one day and said that she had gotten my number from a friend whose son she saw acting in a local children's little theather production.....The agent was now representing this young boy and had gotten him a part in a hot tub commercial....The commercial called for two young brothers to be animated and enjoying the hot tub....They needed a second, younger child and the boy told the agent "there is a little kid accross the street who looks just like me!" .....That was actually pretty accurate....they did have an uncanny resemblance and could indeed have passed for brothers....I ask our little three year old, "Do you want to go with Paul and be on TV?".....A resounding "yes!" And he immediately fell in love with the attention and excitement of the world of making commercials.....

    So the boys made a very successful commercial, and had a blast, plus they made, what was to them, a huge amount of money doing it! (I made our son put his in the bank, much to his dismay).....This was the start of an acting career in commercials which lasted until highschool when other interests, including other types of media projects and his own small business, "Matt's Magic" through which he earned his spending money, took over his time and interests......


    Our daughter got started with the agent mostly in modeling, but did a few TV and radio commercials as well....The agent asked her if she liked to do things on stage one day when she was with us at a commercial shoot with our son....She immediately answered "Yes!"......And so it happened with us in a very casual way that we hooked up with a very nice agent, but it was the decision of the children that they wanted to perform and when they were tired of "go sees" and shooting schedules or wanted to go to summer camp instead of a commercial shoot location, then their preferances prevailed.....

    I think our children had much more good come of their performing experiences than bad and I never really felt like a stage mom because it was their needs and wants that prevailed and not my own, though I did enjoy watching them and was proud of their performance talent....



    Another of our daugher's friends was involved in beauty pageants, which I did not look upon with great favor, and her mom was kind of the pushy type, but in her case, soccer and public speaking prevailed by high school age and she turned out to be a lovely young woman....no damage done....So, another example of just a matter of degree and of the childs personal interests and preferences....That, rather than the inherent evil of the pageant is obviously the point....Although some pageants I think do put just too much emphasis on costume and beauty rather than talent and may really bruise the unsuccessful young competitors....

    I don't know if the media just really overplayed Paty's pageant proclivities or if she and JonBenet were really in it to a distructive degree....It would be interesting to have some more details from their local friends in Boulder who knew more about the situation....

    Voyager
     
  5. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    A really great reference...

    http://www.realityblurred.com/realitytv/archives/reality_tv_shows/2004_Apr_23_showbiz_moms_and_dads
    <!--StartFragment -->Friday, April 23, 2004
    Mother says Showbiz Moms and Dads "ripped us apart"
    Critics say it's "riveting."
    The New Yorker reviews Bravo's new series Showbiz Moms and Dads, finding that "when it comes to the way parents treat their children, judgments are impossible to avoid." That judgment has left one of the parents feeling betrayed.

    Debbie Tye tells the St. Petersburg Times that she was misled: "We were specifically told this would be a positive look at pageantry. And I can almost guarantee that every family went into this thinking that their kids would get work and be shown to be hardworking. (Instead), they completely portrayed me as a pushy pageant mother." She says, "They've really ripped us apart."

    The New Yorker's compares Tye's daughter Emily to JonBenet Ramsey, writing that, "There is a universe of difference between being arguably ill used and being killed, and yet it is hard to avoid the language of crime when it comes to these pageants. One feels that Emily is, at the very least, being robbed of her childhood, and even of her essential femaleness, which is repeatedly buried under a pile of fluffy feminine trappings."


    "Showbiz Moms and Dads" (On BRAVO.)
    [​IMG]This is Emily Tye

    [​IMG]This is Debbie Tye, Emily's over-zealous mother.

    http://www.bravotv.com/Showbiz_Moms_&_Dads/Tyes/Episodes.shtml
    There are seven episode re-caps for the Tye family, I didn't want to do any disservice to the description so I grabbed a couple to post here, but definately go see the pics and check out the episode descriptions; I wish I'd seen this series.


    <!--StartFragment -->Episode 2

    The Tyes arise early to prepare for the All American Family state pageant. Emily is "not a morning person," says Mom, and seems to have a hard time getting going. Before long, she's "pageant pretty," with wavy hair and a ready smile to win over the judges.

    At the pageant, mom is a little disappointed when Emily forgets to do her sure-fire "silly face" during the interview portion of the competition. Later, she admits her daughter seemed "a little out of it." While Emily does earn a trophy, she falls short of the grand prize, much to Debbie's chagrin.

    <!--StartFragment --> Episode 4

    They Tyes head off to "Beauty Boot Camp" where Emily will receive instruction in winning ways to walk and act in beauty pageants, under the tutelage of "Mr. Michael." There, she practices "pretty feet" posture and how to make eye contact with the judges.

    When Emily's patience with boot camp wears thin, mom keeps her focused with the promise of a trip to the toy store. "Yeah, it's flat out bribery," Debbie admits, but whatever works, works." Later, they go shopping for something to wear in the American Co-Ed Pageant, a competition with specific dress requirements. The purchase sets them back $500.

    <!--StartFragment -->Episode 7: Follow-Up

    As a result of her involvement in the series, Debbie has been subject to nasty comments in the media, from "cyberstalkers," and most significantly from the pageant community. Some of her fellow pageant participants blame her for "the downfall of pageantry." One pageant threatened to withdraw Emily's title. The Tyes, however, refuse to give up or back down. They do, however, regret bad-mouthing a fellow family on camera, and plan to deliver an apology.

    To escape some of the unwanted attention in and around their hometown, the family takes a vacation to Hollywood. On the Walk of Fame, Emily literally gets to follow in the footsteps of her favorite star, Shirley Temple. Someday, she would like to do commercials.
     
  6. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    http://www.bravotv.com/Showbiz_Moms_&_Dads/Tyes/Video.shtml

    This is video that really got to me, Emily says "I don't want to do it." And her mother just say's "Emily is not a morning person, she'll be all raring to go when we get there..." This is the kind of thing I imagine Patsy did to keep her going. She tried to bribe her with candy to stop crying!!


    **Edited to Add: Type "Emily Tye" into the Google image search, she's already well on her way...
     
  7. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    What an interesting thread!

    I don't know if I should even post here as I've never had a child so I can't be labled a Mom in way shape or form.

    But I do have an opinion here as it relates to Patsy. We have all read and heard her being the drama queen...over the top in a description of something...very dramatic in her affect no matter what the subject. Now why do you suppose that she underplayed and underdescribed JonBenet's participation in beauty pagents? Could it be that she knew she was being talked about in her circle of friends and that she realized they were not as enthused with pagents as she was? To have described JonBenet's participation as "Just a couple of Sunday afternoons" when we can see the extent she went to have exotic and provocative costumes made for JBR to say nothing about the dance and voice and poise lessons she put her through. Come on, Patsy who are you kidding! But again I wonder why she said it. why?
     
  8. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Jic,

    I've watched those programs with the "showbiz Parents". They are something else. I think I continued to watch because of the behavior of the Mom's. It was so off the wall when the poor little kids didn't win anything except a trophy and that trophy wasn't even the biggest! AWWWWWWGH It was awful to watch and even more awful to see what happened to those little kids. Cruel is the only word I can think of. Most of those kids didn't want to be there. And yes, of course I would think of JBR and Patsy when I was watching.
     
  9. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    Zoomama:

    I would love to have seen her reactions to the losses, apparently she called another mother an a-hole when Emily lost to her child. She said she started Emily in pageants for self-esteem building and to teach her poise, yet it's clear in that video link I posted before that Emily did not want to get pulled out of bed to prepare for a pageant she said she did not want to do; how many pageant mom's have we heard now that have said "She wants to do it, the moment she say's she doesn't want to anymore, we'll find her something else to do."

    These parents are looking for ways to retire early or to supplement their incomes, and look how much is wasted by the parents who don't catch on to the tanning and hair dying right away; Debbie Tye paid out $20,000.00 one year in pageants, I wonder how much Patsy spent...

    Debbie, IMO, is a terrible mother, she didn't explain that it's okay to lose, instead she looked noticeably angry to viewers, I'll bet Emily saw this long before the viewers did; maybe that's why she cried when she didn't win overall.
     
  10. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    That quote makes me sick, and is indicative of everything that is wrong with beauty pageants.

    YOU DON'T PUT MASCARA ON A TWO YEAR OLD BABY!!!

    What is wrong with these people? Have they no shame? They ARE robbing their children of their childhoods and self-esteem. They are made up and paraded like so much beef on the hoof and JUDGED for who is BEST?

    It's the worst possible thing to do to a child. Judge them. And for what? A fake outward appearance and sidewalk strut?

    It IS all about the mothers and not the children. Those mothers are ego deficient and living off their children like parasites, sucking the natural life out of them.

    I'm sorry, people, but this sort of thing really gets my dander up. Children have a hard enough time growing up in this world without the people who are supposed to protect, and guide, them pimping them around the country.
     
  11. Show Me

    Show Me FFJ Senior Member

    I suppose there are some decent pageants...I quite frankly never encouraged my daughters to count on their looks for anything. And my two girls are beauties. Instead hubby and I encourage their schooling and both girls have been straight honor roll students. I want my children to learn something that will last a lifetime, pageantry is not one of those things.

    Patsy went wayyyy overboard with JonBenet...hair dye, contacts= which could only tell Jonbenet she wasn't good enough as herself.

    Patsy didn't think once of JonBenet's feelings....she wanted her to win! Thus we have a mere 6 year old taking violin lessons, French lessons, dance class, poise, makeup, hair, costume fittings, recitals and practice, practice, practice. This on top of school, church and it's an overwhelming schedule for an adult....much less a baby.

    Patsy must be perfect no matter what, and win no matter how.
     
  12. sue

    sue Member

    I did watch the stage mom show. It was sickening to hear the tiny kids saying things like "My ambition is to work for World Peace." Like anyone believes the adult pageant contestants really believe that! If they could really tell what their ambition was (and they understood what you were talking about), most of the little girls' ambition probably wass just to get thru the pageant without making their moms mad.
    All those stage mom shows were scary, not just the pageant ones. There was a mom of a pre-pubscent boy who had not one ounce of talent. She was the scariest because she totally believed (and had him believing) that he was much more talented than any any of the current top pop stars. She even cultured "groupies" for him. Yuck!!

    The common thing with all the stage mom's was what you wrote here:
     
  13. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    What the little girls hear........

    Here Baby, Mommy thinks that you would look prettier as a blonde, not that you are not pretty now but if we just made your eyelashes longer then you would be as pretty as the other little girls and if Mommy buys you this thousand dollar dress THENNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnn you will be a winner!
     
  14. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    In those words...that turned my stomach this morning!
     
  15. Tez

    Tez Member

    Yep, mine too Moab.

    Personally, I think they should outlaw these pageants. I don't think they do anything to help a child's self esteem. I also hate the fact that people compare the pageants to Little League.

    My two girls are nice looking too, but I would never ever subject them to that kind of abuse!
     
  16. Freebird

    Freebird Active Member

    You know I think the pagents would be ok if they were age appropriate. Like 6yr olds competing as 6 yr olds in talent competitions. But these are 6 yr olds competing as little hookers. They shouldn't be allowed to use anything that isn't age appropriate like make-up, slutty clothes, hair dyes and so forth.

    The cheerleading world is as cut throat as the pagents anymore. I was so glad when my daughter left it behind.The girls and mothers become vicious.
     
  17. Tez

    Tez Member

    Absolutely correct Free. They shouldn't dress these little girls to look like hookers. I remember the first time I saw JB in that white costume. I felt so sorry for her. She looked like she was ready to collapse. I can't believe someone would do that to their own child. Six year olds should look like children not twenty somethings....
     
  18. JustinCase

    JustinCase Member

    I won't say that all pageant contestants growp up to be murderers, but I have been reading a whole lot about pageant contestants breaking the law, getting arrested and otherwise staining their reputations with public displays of drunkeness and rage. (seriously, do a search for Pageant and Arrested)

    Is it the constant pressure they're put under to be perfect?
     
  19. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

    OK, I confess. When daughter was a baby, she was gorgeous. :) At less than two years old, I entered her in a pageant. I thought the entry fee was steep, but I was sure she'd win hands down.

    The contest was in the afternoon, nap time which says it all imho; we dressed her in her Sunday finest, the proverbial Easter dress. Duh. :) My hopes dropped when I saw what the other kids were wearing. First and last pageant experience here. Therefore, I can't understand Patsy.
     
  20. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    I've been reading the posts here, and we all have one thing in common - we all think our little girls are/were beautiful. Can it be that all our babies were gorgeous? Or do we all have a bit of a jaded eye?

    I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and when it comes to our own kids, we all may have on rose colored glasses. I think all babies and all little kids are beautiful. Some are cuter than others, but they all shine with an inner beauty to me.

    Is it that they all really are beautiful, or is it the way we look at them and feel about babies, in general? I become a pile of mush in the presence of a baby or little child. I'm sure every mother looks askance at me, because I'm always trying to see their babies or playing hide and seek with them at the checkout counters in stores. Beauty is what I see in all of them.

    Are pageant mothers all jaded? Do they believe their babies/children are the most gorgeous in the world because of the way they feel about them? Others may look at their babies and think they are cute but nothing special. Is it so much conceit that makes these mothers obsessive about their kids? Or is it some special need in them to feel special and be important through their pretty daughters?

    I don't know - I'm trying to figure it out. I have a red-haired daughter, who was cute as a bug when she was little and grew into a vibrant, charismatic, beautiful woman. I have two brunette daughters who were also cute little biscuits when they were young and grew up very attractive. I look at them with jaded eyes, I'm sure, because I love them so much and they are the most beautiful creatures God ever created, to me. Yet, I look at my two nieces, and I see stunning physical beauty, more beautiful than my own girls, who are the most beautiful creatures God every created, you know. I love these girls as my own, but I know I'm seeing more than just their physical appearances when I consider their beauty. I'm seeing the beauty within, which is more beautiful than the physical and which will endure longer than the physical.

    I'm sure all your daughters and grand daughters are lovely. I'm sure all the pageant moms think their daughters are the most beautiful, when in fact, they may be looking through rose-colored glasses. It's sad to me that mothers use their beautiful (through rose-colored glasses) little girls to bolster their own self esteem or to feel important.
     
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