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  1. #49

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    Well, Cherokee, I couldn't disagree with you more.

    These two people, regardless of my unartful panning of them, have ONE PIECE OF PAPER from which they READ for "evidence", and we did not see it. It proves...that Beth may have ONE timeline problem with her retelling of the story of her arrival in Aruba? Not even that. In the context given, one can speculate until hell freezes over, but it proves NOTHING but that THIS COUPLE CLAIM there is a "deceitful" discrepancy in the timeline for some reason. I can think of about a dozen innocent reasons off the top of my head. Is the "document" you posted a LEGALLY accepted DOCUMENT OF EVIDENCE? How do you know it wasn't completely fabricated? Who is the source? How did it get online, and who is vouching that it came through a chain of evidence from that airport? See my point?

    All that you wrote that this couple are saying is, without exception other than the alleged "immigration document", NOT corroborated, NOT supported by any physical evidence WE HAVE SEEN, NOT witnessed by anyone who is saying so but them, and is clearly being told by two people who admit without any qualms they are dear friends and supporters of the Van der Sloots, but that they also managed to get Beth's confidences to turn around and stab her with where it hurts--in the heart belonging to her missing daughter. How can that be coming from honest people who have no agenda but "the truth"? I don't see it.

    No, I don't believe their body language is as innocent as you do, but I guess that's a difference of opinion. Their stories are all over the place, have huge gaps, the man has dry mouth, and the fast talking looks to me like a nervous response. I see them trying to fly a story they know won't fly without EVIDENCE, so tap dance as fast as you can. I interpret that as they're not being HONEST about a lot of it, and they KNOW it. They edit themselves quite deliberately, holding back what is critical. If they had evidence to prove it, why wouldn't they tell it when it is THEY who are making such accusations PUBLICLY? If they don't want to give up names and evidence to the public, then take it to LE and let THEM go with it. Instead, they're rather gleefully trashing Beth and Jug and NATALIE as fast as they can talk and do the sidestep, but no, don't ask for proof?

    As I expressed, their attempts to manipulate the media were plain to me, and the way they did it was old revival preacher stuff: I'm telling you this...you nodded your head...YOU AGREE WITH ME AND YOU KNOW THE RIGHTEOUS TRUTH! Amen!

    Their clothes, their eyewear, their jewelry...it all says something. They don't have money, but they are flying in and out of Aruba for years...why?

    And just what kind of hospice business are they in that they are in international demand for...missing persons cases? I'm lost on that one.

    If you take them at face value and think what they have done is fine because the rest of the world will now get out there and get to the truth, I hope you're right.

    I just doubt it. In the bones of my body, I doubt it has done anything but stirred up the Beth haters for all time. If this couple had more than innuendoes and gossip, they'd have done a lot more about this than call a press conference now. The guy was over the moon about having Beth on AUDIO TAPE saying SHE WANTS TO FIND NATALIE'S BODY, she doesn't care who was last with her. This is solid evidence that...the guy talked to Beth about Natalie and Beth wants her daughter's body. Yet the guy seems to think he's got Beth with that one! That's an Evening2 moment if I ever saw one.

    I guess my knee jerk reaction has a lot to do with arguing against this kind of behavior for so many years with the Krebbies. I just don't think it's right to make such accusations, say such vile things about grieving parents at an arranged press conference, without more than "So and so told me," "Here's a time discrepancy on a flight," and "PROVE US WRONG." That's just wrong, to me. If they can't support it with EVIDENCE, just SPECULATION and ASSUMPTION, then they are no different than mame to me.

    Okay, I only wrote so much on this because nobody was saying much and I wanted to break it down, as the general responses sounded like most people were confused--I'm not alone in that, at least. I'll say this and then I'm done, as it's only my opinion and I have no way of knowing what any of these people are after: I don't know Beth nor any of the other people, and Beth's liason with John Ramsey didn't put me in a mind to think more of her judgment. But if what this couple are saying is WRONG and they never cough up anything credible to back up their horrible allegations of incest resulting in pregnancy, not to mention claiming that Beth knew Natalie was alive after Beth got to Aruba that evening but deliberately ruined three young men's reputations and let them languish in jail for months, then how do these people take BACK the suspicions that will now follow Beth and Jug for the rest of their lives? Maybe the Whites can help them with that.

    If they DO ever provide something besides gossip and speculation, I'll be shocked, but I will look at any actual evidence with the same scrutiny for Beth and Jug.
    Last edited by koldkase; January 23, 2008, 4:26 am at Wed Jan 23 4:26:13 UTC 2008.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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  2. #50
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    I must admit, this video of Dan Young and Kelly Castillo made me sit up and pay attention. I haven't followed this case as I stated, but the name "Natalee Holloway" rung a bell. I must have read something about it on the board. I don't really have the time to get involved in all the new cases that appear on the FFJ board, but I do skim and scan a lot of them to keep updated. The JonBenét case is really the only case I became seriously involved with on the boards in 2001.

    I feel sorry this young 18 year old was killed, and was involved in a high lifestyle of drugs or alcohol (?). What a waste of a young life.

    I'm sure the top TV newscasters will be interested in this video and want to know more.

    KK and Cherokee. You're both putting up a good argument here, and only those who have studied the case very closely will be able to agree or disagree; meanwhile I shall look on with interest to what you both have to say.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #51

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    Elle, I have never seen any proof that Natalie was "involved" in a party lifestyle any more or less than any other teen on her way to college. All I've actually seen verified is that Natalie was drinking the night she disappeared from the bar with the 3 young men in Aruba. You may be thinking of all the speculation that Natalie died from a drug overdose. Nobody knows what she died of, since her body has never been found.

    I've done some looking around, and here is a link to a thread on a forum about Natalie's case. The thread is about this couple on this tape, Daniel and Kelly--and it seems from what I'm reading this couple DOES claim to be...PSYCHIC! Now how did I know that? I MUST BE PSYCHIC!!

    http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/abo...3-0-asc-0.html

    I can barely follow this thread, because I don't know the "players" outside of the main ones we've all heard about. But it seems the couple Daniel and Kelly might be in legal trouble, IF what someone named "Glenda" posts at the forum is true: the "Julia" in question--Renfro?--is said to be going after Daniel and Kelly for slander/whatever. I haven't read the whole thread, so please, if anyone else can figure this out and decipher it for us, I'll refrain from getting my crystal ball out, so let 'er rip!

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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  4. #52

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    On page one of that link, here is "Glenda's" rendition of what this couple, Daniel and Kelly, told Aruban authorities a year ago, I guess she's saying:


    Glenda Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:26 am

    [snip]


    Daniel and Kelly's theory was delivered a year ago. It was investigated, found unfactual and disregard. As Dompig said, the only part that "could" have been true is the part about JUG.

    Their report stated Marlon crossed paths with Natalee after Joran left her on the beach. That Julia and Boeti partied with her. Natalee told Julia about the sexual abuse by Jug and that she didn't want to go hom, so Julia let her stay at her house. Once Beth and Jug arrived, Julia took them on a wild goose chase in the meantime, Natalee was moved to Lorenzo's house where Pitbull would visit her as she was seen on a video tape in a Jewelry Store security tape at the Westin, according to their report.
    They told Dennis Jacobs exactly where the location of her body was burried, then the next day, someone had come and dug up the body and moved her again.
    Pitbull couldn't live with the secret, so he was killed.

    Not sure, but I think Putbull died on the day after Daniel and Kelly told the ALE where the body was burried.

    BOTTOM LINE: Everyone goes down with this story, the ALE, Jug, Julia, Marlon, Boeti, Lorenzo, poor Pitbull... With the exception of Beth of course, because a Psychic told her.
    I don't know any of these "street names" or people, so it's like jumping in the middle of a book and trying to keep up.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Elle, I have never seen any proof that Natalie was "involved" in a party lifestyle any more or less than any other teen on her way to college. All I've actually seen verified is that Natalie was drinking the night she disappeared from the bar with the 3 young men in Aruba. You may be thinking of all the speculation that Natalie died from a drug overdose. Nobody knows what she died of, since her body has never been found.

    I've done some looking around, and here is a link to a thread on a forum about Natalie's case. The thread is about this couple on this tape, Daniel and Kelly--and it seems from what I'm reading this couple DOES claim to be...PSYCHIC! Now how did I know that? I MUST BE PSYCHIC!!

    http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/abo...3-0-asc-0.html

    I can barely follow this thread, because I don't know the "players" outside of the main ones we've all heard about. But it seems the couple Daniel and Kelly might be in legal trouble, IF what someone named "Glenda" posts at the forum is true: the "Julia" in question--Renfro?--is said to be going after Daniel and Kelly for slander/whatever. I haven't read the whole thread, so please, if anyone else can figure this out and decipher it for us, I'll refrain from getting my crystal ball out, so let 'er rip!
    What a shame no one else stepped forward that night to prevent Natalie from leaving with these three young men from Aruba. Seems that none of her close friends were around; or were they used to seeing Natalie taking off like this on a regular basis and just never bothered(?). Yes, I have to admit "party girl" came into my mind when I watched and heard the video.

    Dan Young seemed so confident that Beth Holloway was lying. They were both very non chalant at speaking out.

    It would be hard for me to follow the posts not knowing enough about it, but they will fill me in as to, "what others are thinking about Dan Young and Kelly Castillo."

    I note that Natalie's name is being spelled differently in these posts (?).

    I wonder if the "psychic" term was used the way people often say "You must be psychic" because you have stated something which came true, but you're not necessarily a real Psychic (?).

    Thanks for the information KK.

    So, this theory according to Glenda is not "new?" How on earth are they ever going to sort this out?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    How can that be coming from honest people who have no agenda but "the truth"? I don't see it.
    I never said that. I never said these were honest people who have no agenda but "the truth."

    I said they believe what they're saying. I also said that doesn't make it true, but THEY believe it's true. There is a difference. I was only making that observation as a side point to their story. It has no bearing on whether their claims are valid or not. My original point was that THEY believe they are valid and are not just throwing out lies, hoping something sticks. Of course, Dan and Kelly could be delusional and their story a complete crock. I don't deny that at all.

    My point was that they were not just making up a story for the cameras like the Ramseys. Perhaps Dan's and Kelly's story is full of holes and is should be blasted, and they should be crucified. But that is also my point. Either way, their story needs to be investigated because that's the only way the rumors and innuendos will stop.

    You brought up the White's, and even though the crime stories are different, there is a similarity in that just as NK's story was investigated and SHE was discredited, that is what should happen to Dan and Kelly. If they are crackpots, then the truth will be revealed.

    But what if Dan and Kelly are the equivalent of someone finally speaking about what happened in the Ramsey case, but the IDIs and RST immediately jump on them and declare everything they say to be false? What if someone years from now (such as a former friend of the Ramseys) tells everything they know about what happened only to have the Ram-sympathizers slam them down because they're afraid of hearing the truth?

    Once again, I have never said I believe everything Dan and Kelly said. In fact, I believe the opposite. I'm fairly sure there are parts of their theory they've gotten wrong, but what about parts of it that are right? What about the facts that can be corroborated, or a person they know who can finally lead us to know what REALLY happened to Natalee? If even only 25% of what they said is true, perhaps that 25% can be followed as investigative clues that lead to the truth?

    For instance, if their document is legit, and Beth did arrive at 7:46 p.m. instead of after 11:00 p.m., that was before Natalee's flight left for the US. As I understand it, that would prove Beth DID know Natalee had no intentions of coming home, because even though Natalee hadn't come back to the hotel from the night before, it's possible Natalee would have shown up at the airport for her flight.

    That is just one of the points that needs to be investigated. Surely, it would be easy for LE to corroborate Beth's timeline or say it was false. What does it hurt for LE to investigate and give us the answer? If Beth DID arrive in Aruba after 11:00 p.m, then Dan's and Kelly's theory falls apart, and they are discredited. If Beth arrived at 7:46 p.m., then she needs to explain why gave a different time in her book, and LE needs to investigate HER story.

  7. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1
    KK and Cherokee. You're both putting up a good argument here, and only those who have studied the case very closely will be able to agree or disagree; meanwhile I shall look on with interest to what you both have to say.
    My dear Elle, I hope you know I am not trying to "put up a good argument" against Natalee or Beth or anyone in the Holloway/Twitty family.

    I am not trying to take sides, nor will I defend Dan and Kelly because I do not know if they are worthy of being defended. I merely think their story should be investigated more thoroughly so that it can either be corroborated and the truth known, OR it can be dismissed as vicious lies while Dan and Kelly are rightfully excoriated and villified, and sued by Beth and Jug for every penny they've got!

  8. #56
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    This is explosive either way! If true....OMG......if not true.....OMG......

    These accusations are right up there with the Nancy Krebs saga, so I will unforunately have to follow along to see where this one leads.
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  9. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    My point was that they were not just making up a story for the cameras like the Ramseys. Perhaps Dan's and Kelly's story is full of holes and is should be blasted, and they should be crucified. But that is also my point. Either way, their story needs to be investigated because that's the only way the rumors and innuendos will stop.

    Hold on there, little doggie. I am not recommending the death penalty by crucifixion. A walk on the plank, maybe....

    Turns out, from what I read last night at that "fugitives unleashed" forum, these people did turn in their "info" to the authorities a year ago, and it was investigated. Obviously, nothing came of it, at least not publicly. As best as I can tell, there is someone--this couple?--who put a newsletter online for a long time with the allegations in it. That's where the "story" is written in full of Julia Renfro having Natalie at her house alive, and all the while Julia and Beth were putting up fliers and looking for Natalie. The part about Julia partying with Natalie and some guys named Pitbull and such, during which Natalie overdosed and died, is in that newsletter. The murder of Pitbull--related to the "girl in the store" story--is also in that online piece.

    At least, that's what I think I read on that thread and another there. Like I said, it's very hard to jump into the middle and catch up. Plus, I am not really interested in spending the next ten years on another mystery that will never be solved. I spent myself on the JB case, and seem still to be arguing over just such "sincere" fabrications for some REASON I cannot fathom.

    I think it's all Rat's fault.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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  10. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    I think it's all Rat's fault.
    I'll drink to that.

  11. #59
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    Wink

    It always is.

    Now - back to me twisting those arms around your backs, Maties! :bigstick:
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  12. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    My dear Elle, I hope you know I am not trying to "put up a good argument" against Natalee or Beth or anyone in the Holloway/Twitty family.

    I am not trying to take sides, nor will I defend Dan and Kelly because I do not know if they are worthy of being defended. I merely think their story should be investigated more thoroughly so that it can either be corroborated and the truth known, OR it can be dismissed as vicious lies while Dan and Kelly are rightfully excoriated and villified, and sued by Beth and Jug for every penny they've got!
    Of course, I know that, Cherokee. You both had your own versions of whatyou thought was happening. Dan and Kelly just sounded so convincing to me and many others from what I gathered. I agree with you, their story should be investigated more thoroughly, for sure.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.



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