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  1. #97

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    I understand what you are both saying, Elle and wombat, and you may be right. Did anyone here post any pictures from a NE or Globe sometime in the last year with a picture of clear plastic storage bins in the Ramsey basement with various types of cords/ribbons/something like that inside? I may still have the tab if nobody saw it. I hadn't seen it before myself and immediately thought, well, why didn't anyone in LE think of that cord coming from THERE? Or maybe they did and we don't know about it.

    At any rate, my point is not that Patsy couldn't have made the garrote like that. My point is why would she think about doing it like that? With a handle? I mean, she's staging a cord around JonBenet's neck--pick your reason why that was necessary in her mind--and she decides to tie a HANDLE on it? I have also done macrame, in my earlier crafty years, but I'd never think of putting a handle on that thing. (Imagining that I'd ever think of any of this is impossible, though.) I mean...WHY A HANDLE AT ALL?

    See, it's not that hard to think of someone being strangled with a cord...or hanged with a noose...or some variation we've all seen portrayed on TV and in movies many times. The ransom note is full of movie-like phrases and ideas. But I have never, ever seen anything like that garrote handle. Why not just tie the noose? Why not just do a cross over true garrote? WHY A HANDLE?

    Well, we can certainly imagine that a handle made it all much easier for leverage, can't we?

    Oh. Wait a minute. Remember the lower, faint bruise-line on JonBenet's neck? OH, maybe...she tried it first and couldn't get it tight. So she added the paintbrush handle for leverage a second try...?

    In that case, maybe the first try was upstairs in her bed. Remember, I've asked if anyone here has a copy of the first printing of the Ramsey book DOI IN PAPERBACK? In that edition of the paperback, they added a section at the back of "new evidence." They said that there were fibers from the cord found in JB's bed. That was something none of us knew.

    I read this new stuff standing in my grocery--wouldn't buy the book as I had a hardback I bought in the bargain bin for $4. But I went to find a copy in the bookstore to check on that info last year, and I couldn't find it in any of the newer printings of the paperback. Maybe I just looked in the wrong place or missed it, but that's why I asked if anyone here had a paperback edition with that info in the back. I'd like to know if that evidence was for real or if the Ramseys made it up or were mistaken. If that passage was later removed from the paperback...why?

    But if the info is true, and that is something I have thought of in context of the evidence in JonBenet's bedroom and JAR's room and the laundry area, it does alter some things, like where did the cord come from? Did the killer make a trip to the basement to get it? Or was it already upstairs? I've even thought of it being shoestring.

    You know, that jogs my memory: DonBradley once identifed the cord as to what type and brand and so forth. I looked it up online and found it on retail websites for camping equipment, etc. Oh, gosh, I can hardly remember this, so I may be wrong about that. I'll have to see if I can find that again.

    But...to follow through with the thought...if the garrote was first tied on JB in her bed...with matching cord fibers found there...maybe that's why she was taken to the paint tray...to get the paintbrush for leverage as a handle...and that would mean the killer knew the paintbrush was in the paint tray before bringing JB there...?

    It would also pinpoint violent activity taking place in JonBenet's room before taking her to the basement...?

    Maybe not. Just thinking it through here. Feedback?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #98
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    HOWEVER, drapery and macrame cords are sold plain without the muslin. So, if somebody already had a jacket that needed to be modified to match another, you'd use that and hand-sew it on.
    This was the type of cord I meant Wombat. Hand sewn on the jacket. I wasn't thinking of any other kind.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #99
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    KK:But if the info is true, and that is something I have thought of in context of the evidence in JonBenet's bedroom and JAR's room and the laundry area, it does alter some things, like where did the cord come from? Did the killer make a trip to the basement to get it? Or was it already upstairs? I've enen thought of it being shoestring.
    From what I remember KK. Patsy Ramsey had a lot of craft stuff in the basement. With the amount of cord used for this ligature, it would need to have been sold by the yard. This is the cord I have always had in mind, nothing else!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  4. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    You are obviously know what you're talking about, and it all fits. One of the navy jackets was made by scratch with the trim cord with muslin flap sown into the seam. The other navy jacket was store bought, and the plain drapery/macrame cord was hand-sewed on top of the fabric. iViola! Matching mother and daughter navy jackets with white trim!
    .
    For sure, you know this, Cherokee? So Patsy's jacket was not bought from a store? The trim on hers was much more professional looking than the very bad job of the lapels on JB's jacket. With Patsy being so fussy, one wonders how she allowed her to wear it (?).

    On Ruthee's photographs on ACandyRose, one could see very clearly, the braid on the cord around JB's jacket was hand sewn. No way did I ever mean it was inserted between the lapels. Never!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #101

    Default Ok

    You are right about the cord fibres supposedly found in JB's bed KK...so...thinking about this. If there were some sort of accident in the bathroom...it makes sense doesn't it that the closest place that Patsy would have to lay JB's critically wounded body would be back on her own bed.

    In fact, when my kids were little, if they hurt themselves, I always laid them on the couch or bed or somewhere soft to inspect their scrapes or bruises.

    So...maybe Patsy laid JB on the bed and sat there for a few minnies, panicking and deciding what to do...concocting her "plan". Maybe it was conceived in the bedroom and she ran down the stairs to the basement to get the cord for the initial strangulation. Or maybe there was some cord lying around in JB's bedroom.

    Weren't the hair ties pulled out and lying on the floor?...maybe Patsy was scrambling in the bedroom trying to find something to execute (literally) the first part of her staging plan?

    Maybe Patsy ran down to the kitchen and grabbed the flashlight so she could look around the basement for the cord etc, without turning on the lights and disturbing the rest of the family?

  6. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1
    For sure, you know this, Cherokee? So Patsy's jacket was not bought from a store? The trim on hers was much more professional looking than the very bad job of the lapels on JB's jacket. With Patsy being so fussy, one wonders how she allowed her to wear it (?).
    Oh no, Elle, I didn't mean to imply I knew it FOR SURE. I was just thinking out loud and trying to follow what Wombat said could have happened with the two different types of trim cord. I know next to NOTHING about sewing ... although I know enough to see for myself you are absolutely right about JonBenet's jacket lapels. They look like something I would have done in 8th grade Home Ec.

  7. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zotto
    You are right about the cord fibres supposedly found in JB's bed KK...so...thinking about this. If there were some sort of accident in the bathroom...it makes sense doesn't it that the closest place that Patsy would have to lay JB's critically wounded body would be back on her own bed.

    In fact, when my kids were little, if they hurt themselves, I always laid them on the couch or bed or somewhere soft to inspect their scrapes or bruises.

    So...maybe Patsy laid JB on the bed and sat there for a few minnies, panicking and deciding what to do...concocting her "plan". Maybe it was conceived in the bedroom and she ran down the stairs to the basement to get the cord for the initial strangulation. Or maybe there was some cord lying around in JB's bedroom.

    Weren't the hair ties pulled out and lying on the floor?...maybe Patsy was scrambling in the bedroom trying to find something to execute (literally) the first part of her staging plan?

    Maybe Patsy ran down to the kitchen and grabbed the flashlight so she could look around the basement for the cord etc, without turning on the lights and disturbing the rest of the family?
    OK, this is the upstairs part of the evidence I've struggled with for years.

    I once wrote a long post that put together the evidence as far as I could manage, but of course, it's always just speculation about parts because what we hear today might not be what we are told tomorrow. All that spin...all that BS...just like the ransom note...obstructs the truth.

    Remember the pics of JAR's half open bathroom drawers? Smit showed these, along with the ruffled bedskirt, bag of rope in that room, and said the intruder looked around in there and hid under the bed, possibly. (Smit couldn't put together a puzzle for 4 year olds.) Well, look at that in another way:

    Patsy was packing in that bedroom that day. She and John say so in their own book. Smit also released pics of that bed, with clothing laid out on it, as well as an open suitcase, obviously in the middle of packing. Why any slick, ransom note writing, clever child killer who has gotten away with it for 8 years would HIDE under a bed in a bedroom where it's obvious someone is PACKING during the holidays and may continue to do just that when she shortly returns--therefore trapping him if she does for who knows how long...is beyond me. But...that's Smit logic. But I digress.... Patsy was packing in that room that day, had to leave the next morning early, had more packing to do for that...IOW, Patsy is the one who is centering her activities AROUND THAT AREA.

    Think about the items in that area that have figured in this murder: JonBenet and her room are there; clothes gathered from that area by Patsy for the trip to Charlevoix...she says the morning JonBenet went "missing," but could have been the night before....

    Hang on.... Patsy admitted in the '98 interviews that she took out some diapers for JonBenet to pack for the Big Red Boat trip...packing which was going on in JAR's room. Burke's knife went missing from the same cupboard where the new diaper package Patsy referred to was hanging out the morning of the "kidnapping."

    But remember...there was ANOTHER knife in that area...which I thought was on the washing machine, over which the cupboard was located and the diaper package found hanging out.

    Now...anybody remember a version of Patsy's story...was it in DOI?...when she said she was getting clothes from that area...washing out a jumpsuit of JB's...? Was there a sink there, as well. Oh, I've forgotten so much. Guess I better pull out a book or two.... I was just wondering why Patsy wouldn't have noticed the kitchen knife on the washing machine that morning if she was working in there. I mean, JonBenet was put to bed by Patsy...and Patsy is up before JonBenet. Someone speculated in a chat that the kitchen knife was to cut the panty package plastic tie to get the panties out. We know Burke's knife somehow went from that same cupboard, where LHP says she put it a month earlier, down to the basement, found on a counter in the area where JonBenet's body was concealed.

    Anyhow...I kinda want to do this whole part of evidence discussion on the thread about stuff Patsy doesn't remember, because it's going to be involved, as you can see, and this thread is really for Cherokee's note analysis.

    So after throwing all that out there, I'll just say what if Patsy rummaged through JAR's drawers...pulled out the "rope" from under JAR's bed...looking for the cord? If the cord came from an outdoor/camping/hiking equipment source...maybe she found it in JAR's room. Then she remembered Burke's knife in the cupboard, which she'd seen when getting those diapers to pack, got it and cut the cord and tied the noose in JB's bed...?

    And what started it all? Maybe JB wet the bed, Patsy got her up to change her, found the open pack of panties meant for another child, which JB had opened with the kitchen knife to wear to the Whites...?

    I know that's really writing fiction, because we'll never know that part, will we? But I bet it is something that silly. Or Burke swinging the flashlight in anger. Or whatever. And Patsy knew about the molestation...and JonBenet would not be getting any medical attention.

    But I do wonder if it all came to a head with the 911 call on the 23rd. What if Grandpa Paugh got "caught" somehow that night, either JonBenet told someone, or someone was wiping JonBenet and found blood in her panties...somehow, someone called 911. The Ramseys and the Stines managed to calm things down and get rid of LE. Oh. This might explain that strange friendship that grew rapidly after the murder between the Ramseys and the Stines. But the upshot was Grandpa booked himself on standby to go to Atlanta on Christmas Eve, next night. JonBenet was "sick" that day, as well, wasn't she? Everyone is tense. And on Christmas Night...for some reason...it all explodes into a fatal head injury, covered up by a more fatal strangulation.

    Well, I'm all over the place with this, I know. I guess my initial point is that a lot of activity was going on around the JB/JAR bedroom area that day and night. Patsy was admittedly there packing, dealing with JonBenet and Burke playing, getting ready for the White party, putting JonBenet to bed, then doing some laundry the next morning.... Patsy places herself taking diapers from the same place Burke's knife was hidden, in the cabinet, the same knife ending up in the basement near JonBenet's body. Patsy doesn't "recognize" the rope in that bedroom, but offers that she has seen John burn nylon rope ends on rope in his sailboat, similiar to the secured end of that rope found in JAR's room. She also used rope to decorate JAR's Christmas tree and for other decorations we've all seen pictures of, as well as for photo shoots of JB. The rope is most likely theirs, unless you're RST. Then it's brought in by some stranger intruder to climb out the window with JonBenet, or to tie up the family...along with pineapple snacks, taser, cord, duct tape, knife to cut it, and one body hair.

    So...again...there is lots going on around that area...and Patsy is in the middle of all of it. And NOT ONE ITEM can be LINKED TO THE INTRUDER. NOT ONE.

    But Zotto, I think you may have something with the Patsy using the flashlight to go down to the basement--for cord, or while carrying JonBenet there.

    You know what? Now that y'all got me to thinking about it again...nobody said they saw any lights coming from the basement, did they? Screams heard, "strange lights" seen by neighbors...but no basement lights...?

    So that would mean the killer had to use SOMETHING TO SEE BY. Enter...the MAGLIGHT. It was used. To manuever the basement and commit the murder and molestation there. To place JonBenet in the cellar room.

    Does that make any sense? I never thought about that before quite like this. What would the killer have for light down there? I've never really IMAGINED that all that was done in the basement was done in darkness. With only a flashlight. Is that why the Maglight was on the counter and wiped down? Maybe new batteries had to be put in it, and they were wiped down, or it was all just wiped down as a reaction to cleaning up all that was connected with this murder, just in case....

    OK, I've hit overload. Don't think I'm making a lot of sense anymore. If anyone can see anything in here worth responding to, I can use help figuring out what I'm trying to say.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #104
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    Default you're right

    I tried to explain a few years ago, when this idea came up, that cording used for sewing usually has a flat area to sew into the seam.
    Wasn't it claimed that the McGuckins Hardware said a receipt found included two items (unnamed) and the price matched some duct tape and also some rope or cord that was allegedly purchased by Patsy within a couple of weeks of JonBenet's death? If this is so it does explain where the rope/cord came from but not where the rest of it went. I really doubt it was bought with the intention to stage a crime scene so it must have been used for it's intended purpose (perhaps to make carriers for some of her paintings as suggested by someone on this forum?) and what was used were left-overs.
    If one or more of the Ramseys were involved in the murder and/or cover-up this is the thing that they probably secretly snicker about - everyone wondering what happened to the rest of the tape and cord.

  9. #105

    Default I'd love to chew the fat on this KK...

    But I'm at work and am skimming a little....I'll re-read all you wrote when I have more time.

    But yes, thinking about the "strange lights" that were reported...that could easily be a flashlight crossing windows with it's beam or whatever. It would have been no hassle for Patsy to run down those back stairs without a light...she knew them as well as anything, and she would have known where in the kitchen it was kept. I can easily navigate the stairs in my own place without the light on.

  10. #106

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    I do agree we need to back to Cherokee's fascinating analysis soon, KoldKase, and maybe put all this on an evidence thread - but first...

    Zotto - I don't think they were hair ties. The cops involved had no understanding of the world of women, so they mistook POT HOLDER LOOPS for hair ties. (You make a potholder on a square frame with teeth to hold the loops as you weave them - first craft learned by many little girls. The frame is visible in a few evidence photos on JonBenet's nightstand.) The loops are bigger than hair ties and very stretchy, and maybe somebody thought they could use them for a garrotte before she realized they're not very strong.

    KoldKase - another problem with hiding under the bed - wasn't Jacques the dog around for part of the day?

    Regarding what piece of household flotsam Patsy would have noticed or not - her house was usually a mess and I think she can get away with not noticing a kitchen knife.

    KK - I'd like to discuss this Grandpa/911 on 12/23 thing more, because I'm not familiar with it - but I have to read more about it. Any suggestions?

  11. #107

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    OK, gotta' run some errands, so I'll have to think about the Grandpa stuff and the 23rd/911 call. Other than PMPT and Thomas' book...we've talked about this for years, so sources are not coming to mind immediately. It's accepted as fact, though. Whether it is or not...never went to trial, so we only have what people tell us, don't we?

    Oh, I couldn't find the exact post I was thinking of on the cord specifics from DonBradley...I only have 5 years of saving stuff to get through. But I did remember that DBradley said it was STANSPORT, and I did find a post he wrote saying it was a common sporting cord. I googled this years ago when Don did post the brand. I'll try again when I get back, or someone else can if they have time. But you have to remember that DonBradley is RST and so will never give a source, as the entire of the RST works to OBSCURE the truth rather than reveal it. They like to feel there's power in the "we know and you don't" tactic, but mostly, they just look exactly like the Ramseys: hiding the facts to spin it for advantage. The result is nobody can believe anything they say outright, so we have to take anything they say with a pound of salt. Like the "cord fibers in the bed," which came from ONLY RAMSEY SOURCES. So we don't know if it's true or just another lie to spin into an "intruder." So Ramsey of them, I think.

    No sweat, Zotto, on reading that ungainly post. I almost didn't post it because it got totally away from me and I had to go before I could think it through clearly.

    Oh, and Jacques the dog had been expelled from the home most of the time by then, I believe, for peeing inside. Seems that breed is hard to housetrain, and we know Patsy wasn't strong on continence-training anything, was she? I believe the dog was at the neighbors' house across the street that day, where he ended up permanently after the murder.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #108

    Default Wombat...my apologies....

    I'm giving myself a thrashing for posting misinformation LOL! I'm sorry..that's what comes from posting in a hurry and not thinking. I did know they were pot holder loops in JB's room...not hair ties. I was thinking generally of Patsy knocking things over in her haste to do things.



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