REVISITING BROKEN WINDOW & spider web

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Greenleaf, Jan 2, 2006.

  1. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    When I read the other thread, making reference to the broken basement window and the spider web, I thought I would start a new thread, asking for your comments. Please opine anew.


    This is what I have always believed about JR’s ridiculous story of how that basement window got broken:

    It is obvious to me (and my “Sleuthing 101â€classmates) that he never climbed through that window. Forget the spider webs, just revisit the architectural structure of that basement window and you too will conclude, no doubt, that it would have been the single most difficult entrance into that house, except, perhaps, for sliding down the chimney. (Remember skinny old Lou Smit, making his grand, awkward entrance into the house, via that route, on National Television, per the Diane Sawyer program?) It was laughable. Poor Diane could hardly keep a straight face.

    Now, we know JR lied about the broken window, making it a moot point. The question is, WHY DID HE LIE?

    Think about it. The broken window would have been the perfect piece of evidence for the intruder theory. Yet, early on, when first asked by the cops, JR made the statement about his prior forced entrance into that window, thus immediately eliminating any further examination of the broken window site. (Although, as we know, he later refined his story of lies, giving another convoluted account, inviting the "intruder" back into the fold.)

    This is what I think: That broken window HAD to have some link to the murder. Why else would he have felt the need to lie about it? (Plus, it makes no sense that he would have gone all those many months without having it repaired.)

    JR didn’t quite have his cover-up story all together that morning, and, for some reason, he wanted to divert attention AWAY from that broken window. (Much the same way he diverted attention AWAY from the “wine cellar door,†behind which lay JBR’s body.)

    WHY did he do that? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    UNLESS….

    That broken window had something to do with JBR’s murder.
    Say what? I said that the broken window had something to do with JBR’s murder.

    I have a few theories, but I would like to hear from some of you brilliant sleuths here, at FFJ. Think of how possibly the broken window could have been a part of the crime scene.

    I anxiously await your replies.

    Greenleaf
     
  2. 1000 Sparks

    1000 Sparks Active Member

    I don't think so, Greenleaf...

    Sometimes it seems the Ramsey's lie for no good reason.

    Don't you think that glass was taken into evidence? A piece of it???

    Wouldn't they be able to tell that it was broken before that day? the edges would have dirt on them (equally I would think with the dust/debris from the wind)..they could tell it was not freshly broken...or didn't they test that???

    I don't believe John went through that window (dumb for him to say, but heh)...especially taking his clothes off??? and what did he break it with? Wouldn't he have gotten splinters of glass in him?

    Who with the RST said the spider "could" have redone the web? and what kind of expert are they? Where did they get their info? Was it just another madeup excuse for the intruder?

    I don't believe the window had anything to do with the murder, including an intruder climbing through...I think it was just another thing to throw the detectives off ('cept Smitty).
     
  3. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    There is no way I would REMOVE my clothes to climb in through a broken window. I always put ON thick rubber gloves to pick up broken glass.
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    Greenleaf,

    1. I think the window was broken either on Christmas night, or early morning on the 26th December, after the Ramseys found out that JonBenét was dead.

    2. The Ramsey's had to find a broken entry spot to create an "intruder,"
    otherwise they themselves would be the #1 suspects. The Ramseys created their own "reasonable doubt."

    3. "Death of Innocence" paraphrased Page 20 - 21 HB
    10:00 am comes and goes that fateful morning. No phone call from the Foreign Faction. The kidnappers had stated they would call tomorrow, and he doesn't know if this means the 26th or the 27th (?).

    4. Cops are all over the house dusting for prints etc., John Ramsey suddenly remembers he broke into a basement window in the summer, when he had left his keys inside. He doesn't tell Detective Arndt about his thoughts. He jumps up and heads for the basement. He needs to look at that entry place.

    5. John finds the pane still broken, and the window is open with a Samsonite suitcase under it - already moved into this position by his best friend Fleet White earlier that same morning - and John thinks this is odd for this case to be there.

    6. John thinks maybe this is how the kidnapper got in and out of our house.
    He wants the reader to think this is exactly how an invisible intruder got in and out.

    7. John goes upstairs. He doesn't mention anything here about closing the window at all. Later when he was asked to go and look for anything out of place in the house, he makes his famous beeline to the basement; draws Fleet's attention to the broken windowpane, and explain about him breaking in during the summer. John has to tell Fleet about this window having been broken before, because Fleet can then relate to the police that John did tell him of this incident.


    8. John then tells Fleet he had found this window open earlier, which means the window was now closed. This is when the readers discover John had closed the window. John also is quick to mention that Fleet hadn't told him he had been down in the basement before.

    9. Did Fleet White spot this open window during his earlier visit to the basement? If so, why didn't he tell Linda Arndt?

    !0. John needed someone else to listen to him go through the scenario of the broken window before he led them to the windowless room where JonBenét's body was. As it so happened, it was his best friend, Fleet White, and no time was wasted at all as you all know. He made straight for that room. You all know the rest.

    No, Greenleaf, John Ramsey never broke that basement window during the summer. He's lying.

    PMPT page 266 paperback paraphrased

    The gardener, Brian Scott, questioned by Linda Arndt, never remembered a broken well window when he was at the house adjusting the candy canes on 10 December, 1996. He remembered a 2" square broken at the front for Christmas lights. He never knew about the windowless room. from the outside. If he was attending to the garden in the summer and Autumn, I'm sure he would have noticed a broken window when cutting the grass or raking leaves. One can still see the windows through the grate.

    PMPT paperback page 80-81 paraphrased

    Linda Hoffman Pugh , husband and daughter Ariana were at the Ramsey home after Thanksgiving, 1996, washing windows and preparing the house for Christmas. Looking for the trees, she eventually finds the windowless room. The door was stuck from a recent painting. They return the next day to carry the trees upstairs. She never noticed the broken window either. I would think someone washing windows would have noticed a broken one. I'm sure they would have felt the cold air coming in. It was November.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2006
  5. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    IMO maybe JR wanted to divert attention away from the window but the only way to explain his fingerprints (if any were found) was to say he closed it that AM and it was broken prior. Were there any fingerprints found?
     
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    What puzzles me, Cranberry is that John Ramsey takes Fleet White over to the broken window pane and explains that he broke that during the summer, and that it had been open when he was in the basement earlier that morning. DOI page 22.

    Why was he explaining himself to Fleet White and not Det. Arndt?

    Greenleaf. I purposely chose "Death of Innocence" for some of this information , because John Ramsey was also covering his tracks in this book. I know there are posters who refuse to read this book, but a lot jumps out at you when it comes to the Ramseys covering their tracks.

    I still think An entry spot had to be made to create a reasonable doubt.
     
  7. Elle

    Elle Member

    Don't keep me in suspense, Greenleaf. Let's have your theory! I feel I"m in an Agatha Christie game which I received for my Christmas. Unfortunately this is a real murder mystery we're in.
     
  8. wombat

    wombat Member

    Elle I agree with you about Death of Innocence. I refused to read it until last year but then I did and it explained alot.

    Don't be afraid to read it - there's nothing in it that makes you think they're telling the truth. Also, you can get it on Amazon for a buck so you won't be contributing to the Ramsey Innocence Fund.

    Question for this thread - Somewhere I read that John was doing a tour of the house with a reporter, and when they got to the window he reached up and broke it again to show her how it looked on Dec. 26 - just broke it right in front of her. This was either in PMPT or Steve Thomas's book.
     
  9. Scarifier

    Scarifier McHag The Third

    Yup, I bought mine on eBay for that very reason :)
     
  10. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Greenie,

    I don't believe that the window had anything to do with the murder but rather with the murderer/s. John has been the master of misdirection throughout this entire saga. He has misled, misdirected, vanished for unexplained lengths of time and just plain figeted his way everywhere. His daughter is supposed to be missing and he strides out to get the mail. He calls his pilot to ask if they can get away quickly (I think he did that) and was very much anything but helpful to the cops. He didn't even act distrought. The window is only a red herring I believe and I also believe that John had to break it so that his brand new excuse of the "intruder" would seem plausable. Except for a tiny little piece of glass on the suitcase (moved there under the window by Fleet BTW) there was no other glass either outside or inside...strange no? Remember that until this new theory of an "intruder did it" it was written in the RN as a foreign faction group. When that didn't fly with the LE group then John had to invent another scenerio for a guilty party. So no I don't think the window had anything to do with the murder but rather with the murderers. Nobody went in or out of that window during the crucial time period.
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    Death of Innocence was the first book I picked up, Wombat. and without a long story, I remembered seeing the little girl on TV a good few years ago, and curiousity got the better of me. Of course, after joining CN2000, very wise posters put me on the right track, and I was amazed when I returned to DOI and spotted the lies. However, I also thought it was a good diary of the Ramsey lifestyle. and how the other half lived.
     
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    Zoomama,

    Can you picture A "Foreign Faction" picking that window to enter the Ramsey home? More like they would have landed their plane in the street, and blew a hole in the house.:)
     
  13. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    IMO maybe JR had to explain it to FW since JR was on the spot and JR hadn't explained it to PR yet :OO
     
  14. Elle

    Elle Member

    It's possible, Cranberry, because John Ramsey and Patsy didn't talk much during those crucial hours when it was still a kidnapping scene.

    Strange that the close friendship of the Whites and the Ramseys disintegrated, and yet it was Fleet White who John trusted with his son, Burke, when he very quickly ushered Burke out of the house, away from the scene of the crime.
     
  15. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    Actually, zoomama, John Ramsey did not leave his house to get the mail because the mail came through a slot either in or near the front door.

    Now on to the issue of the broken basement window. John said that when he had found himself locked out that one night in the summer of 1996 he removed his clothes, broke a hole in the glass, reached in, undid the latch and climbed in in his underwear. His saying he took off his clothes seems very odd, but consider this. What if he was only in his underwear when he broke the window 12/25 or 12/26? He has to have some explanation as to why there would be no fibers found in the window area so he invents a story about climbing in after taking off his clothes. My guess is that he stood on the suitcase and used a baseball bat to punch a hole in the glass. (Wasn't something said about there being a baseball sized hole?) In the process of doing this, his left forearm was most likely on the sill and, when he moved his arm, he inadvertently knocked in some of those foam packing peanuts.

    -Tea
     
  16. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    If there had been a hole in that basement window, then I think there would've been a difference between the heating bills of Oct-Dec 1996 vs the same time period in 1995.

    -Tea
     
  17. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    Did they ever test the window for stria? (sp?) Sometimes you can tell from what direction something was broken.
     
  18. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

    I wouldn't think that the basement would be heated. Mine wouldn't be. :)
     
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Gosh, I have to put on my thinking cap here.

    As I remember it, according to Thomas, the first time LE heard about John and the broken window was at the 2 hour interview John gave the BPD/Thomas at the DA's Office 4 months after the murder, in April '97.

    I'll have to check this all out, but I think we learned when the transcripts were released in the NE book that John came up with the stripping down to his undies story in the interview in '98, which would be the interview with Smit/the BDA.

    OK, now I'm trying to remember: there was a crime scene picture of that window open, but when Smit showed it on one of his TV propaganda shows, the stink was that the window wasn't found open by LE...but had been opened by them...and then photographed? No...that seems wrong.

    OK, let me pull out my books. Because I'm thinking that this whole broken window story goes back to John, Smit, and then jams, who spread her own version of the story including knowing a "person" who was with John when he broke the window and then stripped and climbed in...UNNAMED SOURCE, of course.... Which makes you wonder, if it IS true someone WAS there, why not just tell who and settle it? Oh...wait...because the "who" is somehow suspicious...or not credible...or maybe even ashamed...watching John strip...while Patsy was out of town...?

    Now THIS is how rumors get started...and then blamed on US! Why would anyone want their identity kept secret if it was just an innocent case of being locked out of the house? Especially when being evasive only adds to the EVER SNEAKY STORIES OF THE PRIME SUSPECTS?

    The truth is these people never want anything simply and plainly explained, do they? It's enough to make anyone suspect them. Again, why blame US for their own hide-and-peak games? If they have something to hide here, then guess what, IT'S JUST ONE MORE THING, isn't it? If they don't, then why not just tell the truth? And if they don't want the truth known and don't want people wondering what they're hiding, then maybe jams shouldn't have played tease. It's why she's so disingenuous when she jumps all over us for suspecting the Ramseys. They set 'em up and we knock 'em down. They they cry foul!

    That's been the Rams' problem from day one: people aren't as stupid as they wish we were. If you act suspicious, people will think you're suspicious! If you play it straight, people will think you're being straight with them.

    With the Ramseys, they haven't done one thing in 9 years that was anything but a long and twisted road to get around the truth. It's always one smoke screen after another to hide the truth.

    I do remember that the "smoke screen" issue was why did John wait 4 months to tell LE that there was an open broken window in the basement where his daughter's murdered body was found.

    Well, let me think about it. Because it did occur to me that IF jams was actually telling the truth, that she'd spoken to a "witness" to John's breaking the window, and IF that person was telling the truth (always the "ifs" with the Rams), then why wouldn't that person just come forward and go on the record? Maybe that person and/or John felt it looked "inappropriate" to have him/her at John's home with Patsy out of town...and John didn't want to mention it to LE because...John's own character would be called into question...as well as his marriage...maybe gossip would get started about this...? I mean, stripping down to your undies in front of this person to climb in a window might look even more inappropriate, doncha' think?

    It really makes no sense. I don't know many people who would strip off their clothes outdoors where anyone could see them to climb in a window anyhow, much less with a "person" standing there watching them.

    But whatever it was that happened, IF it happened, John didn't want LE to know about it until he decided to mention it 4 months later. My guess: his lawyers had gotten the crime scene pics from Hunter and that open window needed to be explained by John when he'd been in the basement early on that morning, yet hadn't mentioned it to LE. So he said he broke it earlier.

    Then Patsy agreed, saying it had been vacuumed up after John broke it. I was thinking even the maid said she'd cleaned up the glass, but I honestly may be wrong on this point.

    But if it was broken previously, and John did undress and there was another person there watching him...that might explain two things: why John didn't report the broken window...as he broke it...and why he didn't think it was anything he needed to share with LE for 4 months...because he didn't want to tell them about that "other person."

    OK...let me go back: "...why John didn't report the broken window...as he broke it...." OK, he broke the window earlier that year, so that morning, it didn't even register with him LE might think an intruder broke it and got in that way. But if your child had just been kidnapped and you were looking for clues to how and who...wouldn't you think about a window that was open in the basement, broken by you for the very purpose of getting into your locked home? Wouldn't you think, hey, this could be how they got in, so I'll tell the cops?

    Sure you would. Unless you knew nobody came in that window.

    I will say I don't think any amount of glass from the break was found by LE at the crime scene. I just remember the piece on top of the suitcase, a very small piece. So I don't think the Rams broke the window that morning and then vacuumed it up if they wanted to "create" an entrance for the "intruder."

    But maybe, in their desperation, they did try to stage an intruder coming in the window. So they pulled the suitcase up to the window. They realized the glass was already cleaned up, but they found a sliver and put it on the suitcase.... And John didn't mention breaking the window himself as he hoped LE would think it was the intruder. Just like they thought LE would find the body immediately. Remember, they're simply buying time at this point. They need to get away, quick. They need to convince LE with the ransom note and the staging that an intruder did this, so they can play "victims" and get to their lawyers' protection.

    But LE didn't find the body, and if Patsy, the maid, and some anonymous witness knew John broke the window, by the April interview, that con wasn't going to fly anymore, so he 'fessed up to breaking the window earlier that year and let LE do what they did best: nothing.

    Well, I don't know about any of this, I'm just speculating, and I may have some of the facts wrong. I've discovered that 9 years is longer than I can remember a lot of things in detail. Maybe someone else remembers. I'll try to find some of this again when I get a chance.
     
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    We've never heard any results from such a test, Punisher, that I can remember. There is lots of evidence we don't know about, and lots they probably plain didn't do. And in Colorado, the DA can keep it that way for eternity.

    Also, if I remember correctly, the issue with the heat in the basement was one of it being hot because of the furnace located there. I remember something about Patsy opening a window in the basement to smoke...but where I read that escapes me at the moment, so it might be gossip.
     
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