Maybe it's just a coincidence, but...

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by icedtea4me, Jan 7, 2006.

  1. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    ...isn't it eerie how JonBenet was removed from that windowless tomb-like room in the basement where she had been wrapped up in her blanket and the first thing Patsy says upon seeing her is "Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead! Please raise my baby!"?

    -Tea
     
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm sorry I'm missing something here. What are you talking about? JonBenét being removed from the windowless room? It being eerie? What has this got to do with Patsy Ramsey's statement? Patsy Ramsey was doped to the hilt in Valium.
     
  3. Freebird

    Freebird Active Member

    I don't know any Christians that actually believe God is going to raise up someone from the dead in this day and age. I can't imagine that being the first thought of a mother seeing her murdered child.

    I think that scene would have been more believable if Patsy was screaming Oh God! Noooo.... What Happened....Who did this?

    It appears Patsy had some time to reflect on JB being in a tomb (the basement) and making the connection to lazarus.
     
  4. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    That is an aspect o the case I never thought of before. Christ was wrapped in a shroud and placed in the tomb. JonBenet was wrapped in a blanket and placed in a "tomb". was the blanket wrapped around her in a shroud-like way?

    Any other eerie parallels? Was JonBenet's head placed upon something or was that a false rumour? Cigar box. Was Christ's head placed upon anything?
     
  5. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    Elle- I could be mistaken but I don't think Patsy had any Valium until she was given some by Dr. Beuf at the Fernies' later that evening.

    Freebird- Yes, it would have been more believable if Patsy had said things in the line of what you stated. Or even something like "No! It's not true! You're lying!"

    Jayelles- Although you mentioned Jesus instead of Lazarus, you do understand the parallel between the two (JonBenet and Lazarus). I don't remember if Lazarus's head was placed on anything but, if it was, it would most likely be a flat stone. His head wasn't placed on a cigar box, that's for sure!

    -Tea
     
  6. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    John Ramsey told police that the blanket was wrapped around her papoose-like, but weren't her feet sticking out? I always thought that when a child is wrapped in a papoose the bottom end of the blanket got tucked over the feet
    and then the sides were wrapped around the body. So, if anything, it would seem the blanket was wrapped around her like a shroud, not a papoose. But, of course, John couldn't tell police it was wrapped around her shroud-like. Not after what Patsy said.

    -Tea
     
  7. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    Tea, I don't believe in coincidences!
     
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    I believe valium was already in the house, and they had both taken it. Dr. Beuf did recommend Benadryl for sleeping at nightime, but Patsy was out of it on the 26th with her friends dancing attendance on her, that's for sure! I remember reading this. Not all that important right now.
     
  9. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    Freebird: "I don't know any Christians that actually believe God is going to raise up someone from the dead in this day and age. I can't imagine that being the first thought of a mother seeing her murdered child."

    I am one, Free, glad to meet ya! There are actually verified reports of people being raised from the dead today. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, so why, if He raised Lazarus and others then, couldn’t He do so today? God’s mercies are not limited to time or culture.

    Jayelles: "That is an aspect o the case I never thought of before. Christ was wrapped in a shroud and placed in the tomb. JonBenet was wrapped in a blanket and placed in a "tomb". was the blanket wrapped around her in a shroud-like way? Any other eerie parallels? Was JonBenet's head placed upon something or was that a false rumour? Cigar box. Was Christ's head placed upon anything?"

    Christ’s “tombâ€, as was Lazarus’, was actually a cave with a carved stone slab where His corpus was laid out flat. We all know the Shroud of Turin. Large stones were rolled into the cave opening to prevent animal predation or theft. And in the case of Jesus, angels stood guard over His tomb, as well as Roman centurions, to ensure no theft of His body took place. Yet some still claimed that His resurrection was a fraud. As with all things divine including resurrections and healings, some will accept and some won't. Thank God God is not dependent on our beliefs in order to exist and be as wonderful to us all as He has always been.

    Icedtea4me: "Jayelles- Although you mentioned Jesus instead of Lazarus, you do understand the parallel between the two (JonBenet and Lazarus). I don't remember if Lazarus's head was placed on anything but, if it was, it would most likely be a flat stone. His head wasn't placed on a cigar box, that's for sure!"

    Both Lazarus and Jesus were entombed in the same fashion. Prior to enshroudment, the body was thoroughly cleaned and all wounds dressed with herb tonics. Shrouds were fabricated out of large strips of cloth and wrapped in several layers. It was not customary to place the head of the deceased upon anything but rather, the corpus was laid flat upon the stone slab wrapped in a shroud. Sometimes family and friends would place cherished possessions around the body or somewhere in the tomb. There is plenty of literature to be found on the internet regarding specifics of how Jesus was entombed.

    According to crime scene photos, there was nothing in the little room that would indicate JB's head had been placed on anything.

    And yes, I agree that Patsy’s first words upon seeing her dead daughter’s stiff body were strange. I would expect her initial reaction to be, as said above, expressions of shock and grief if Patsy did not know already that JB was gone. I have no problem with her lamentations to the Lord to raise JB from the dead like He did Lazarus, but as an initial reaction, given the totality of everything that morning, it’s pretty telltale IMO.

    And I believe both the Ramseys were chronic prescription drug takers. If we consider that they had spent the entire night accidentally killing their daughter, perhaps one molesting her, then staging a ridiculous and elaborate crime scene, it would make sense that by the time Patsy called 911 that morning, she and John both were tanked on something to cope with all they’d done and were trying to pull off. :devil:
     
  10. Freebird

    Freebird Active Member

    I'm all ears.

    I can see people who have 'died' on operating tables and the like coming back, but a stiff corpse...?
     
  11. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    DejaNu

    Thank you for explaining that to me. I am not religious as you may have guessed. I grew up in an area where there was a lot of religious tension and it put a lot of people off!

    The little knowledge I do know comes from a book I read about the Turin shroud (well spotted!).

    So:-

    JonBenet & Jesus were both wrapped
    Both were placed in windowless tombs
    Both were laid on stone

    Any other coincidences?

    The red heart on her hand - stigmata?
     
  12. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    Free, yep. Do some internet research. You'll find 'em!

    Jayelles, you're welcome! Actually, Jesus and Lazarus and JonBenet were all wrapped in shrouds and buried in tombs. Jesus raised Lazarus back into human life but of course he eventually died again. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate whether Lazarus is in heaven. Jesus was raised into His former spiritual life and still lives, having defeated the powers of evil to condemn believers to eternal hell. And, according to doctrines of the faith, JonBenet was raised into eternal spiritual life and still lives because she believed on Him. There are your religious similarities. The tenets of the faith are quite simple....life is eternal and nothing can impede it. WHERE we spend it is the sole issue.

    As to the heart drawn on her hand, I do not believe it is indicative of stigmata. Stigmata is traditionally associated with the Catholic religion. The Ramseys are evangelicals. In the evangelical movement, signs and wonders, like stigmata and images of Christ and His mother, are not necessary in order to believe and, in some cases, are considered a sign of the end times in that those who require them to have faith are being easily misled. Why would Christ need to implant His image on a grilled cheese sandwich? Or the Virgin Mary impose her likeness on the bark of a tree? While these things may be collectible and reminiscent of graven images, from a divine perspective, what purpose do they serve? In cases where stigmata has been legitimized, they have all manifested as actively bleeding, seeping wounds on both hands, the feet and, in some cases, the forehead symbolizing the wounds left in Christ's face from the crown of thorns. This was not the case with JB. I would encourage you to watch the movie "The Exorcism of Emily Rose."

    I believe the heart on JB's hand was probably drawn by JB herself or one of her little friends whom she spent that day playing with in her own home. Or it could have been placed there days prior to her death since Patsy testified that JB hadn't had a bath in several days. There is no indication in the autopsy report or otherwise that the ink on her hand is fresh and therefore placed on her hand at the time of the injuries. Given the forensic aspect of this evidence and the Ramseys' own religious beliefs, therefore, I don't attach any religious significance to that artifact or consider it relevant to the crime or crime scene.
     
  13. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Did Jesus have a wound in his side? (I am thinking of the marks on Jonbenet's torso/side).
     
  14. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Jayelles,

    Yes, there was wound in Jesus side from a lance that one of the soldiers jabbed him with long after he was dead. It was done to see if the person was really dead. Crucifixion was so common in those days and so many were crucified that as the soldiers were leaving for the evening they would jab at the sides or just under the rid cage of those hanging there. Jesus was stabbed in the side.
     
  15. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    I consider the bruising on JB's left side as occurring when her body was dragged to the basement. Unless assisted, she would have been too heavy for Patsy to manage alone.
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I disagree here, and I'm quite puzzled at your thoughts here.

    JonBenet weighed less than 50 lbs. I was actually thinking 45 or 48. At 50 years of age, I could carry a 6 year old down two stair flights and not even break a sweat. That's only been a few years ago and I did have a six year old in my care, so I am not guessing. A thin six year old child is not that big.

    Plus, if Patsy dragged JonBenet down two flights of stairs, JonBenet would have had a lot more than a couple of pairs of points of bruises. If dragged from under the armpits, she'd have had heels and/or legs, possibly her buttocks, banged on many stairs, or if dragged by her ankles or legs, on her back, head, arms, etc. She'd also be bruised in a different pattern than the bruises found on her, I believe. Even if she were dead, she would still have post mortem bruises of a different color from being dragged.

    Also, dragging would produce carpet burns, possibly, if the floor and/or stairs were carpeted. (I can't remember which floors/steps were in the Ramsey home.)

    No, I don't think that the minimal bruising on JonBenet's body supports a dragging theory, but if you have information on this, I'd be very interested to learn it. It would certainly be evidence I haven't seen before.
     
  17. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    Dead weight is much different than live weight, KK. I trust you carried a live child, not a dead one. I am 50+ and can't carry a 6 year old down several flights of stairs, live or dead. Patsy probably couldn't either.

    The abrasions on various parts of JB's body identified in the autopsy report could well indicate carpet burns. I envision her being dragged by a wrist above her head on her left side. Re-read the autopsy report with this perspective in mind and see if you don't see a logic to it.
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I did reread the autopsy, Deja Nu, and the only abrasions I see are very small and do not indicate drag marks, if I'm reading it right. If I'm missing the obvious, maybe you could be more specific. But I have never seen anyone state anywhere that JonBenet had drag marks on her body, before now. Did I miss this important evidence?

    Of course I have never carried a dead child, but I have carried a sleeping one many times. They are limp. Also, the autopsy does state JonBenet weighed 45 lbs. at the time of autopsy. You have to understand, that's weight distributed over the length of the body and limbs, as well. It's very easy to carry them because you drape them on your body, rather than carry them like a sack of potatoes. You really should notice the next time you're around an average-sized six year old. They are not heavy.

    As for dragging her by the wrists down two floors, again, I don't see how that is possible without leaving bruising on the wrists, as well. I'll tell you why. My grandson was in the first grade, six years old, and his class had an autistic child in it. The child was so disruptive she had to have an assigned special ed teacher with her at all times. I mean, sitting in a chair beside hers, and often she sat in his lap. I observed this on several occasions myself. I sometimes asked my grandson about her, to really see how he felt about all this and talk to him about it if needed. So one day, I picked him up at school, and after I got him home, I was either helping him dress or wash or working with him or playing with him or who knows, but I froze because I noticed he had identical bruises on both his arms, right above the wrists. It was obvious they were made by fingers holding his arms too tight. I didn't react too much, because he's a kid, and kids are rough sometimes, and they get bruised in strange ways. So I asked him how he got those. It was a story that was hard to hear.

    He reluctantly told me that the man who took care of the autistic child had grabbed his arms really tight because my grandson had yelled at the little girl for something or other. Now, my grandson was only six, and he's never been in a fight and he doesn't bully, nor is he mean. I asked him why he yelled at the child and he said she kept doing something she wasn't supposed to do and wouldn't stop--I honestly can't remember what, but it was something like talking and he couldn't hear the teacher, or maybe pushing a book he was working in, something like that. He sat at the desk with the little girl and probably just over-reacted that day, maybe because she was disruptive a lot. I'm not excusing him, he shouldn't have yelled at her, but what happened next took my breath. My grandson said when he yelled at the little girl to stop, the male teacher had suddenly grabbed his arms above his wrists, with too much pressure. That's how the bruises happened.

    Well, my first instinct was to call the school. For any teacher to bruise a child during a physical disciplinary action, even inadvertantly, is completely out of bounds, IMO. My grandson is also a small, thin child, and very obedient, especially at school, so there was no need to grab him at all, IMO. I was upset. But my grandson said he didn't want to get the man in trouble. He said the man had told them all he a new baby at home and wasn't getting much sleep at night. I figured he didn't mean to hurt my grandson, probably didn't even realize he'd hurt him. As a teacher, I know how hard it is to work with autistic children everyday. It's very taxing and draining, and that's very human. So I thought about it and decided since the bruises were faint, the man had just reacted a little too aggresively without realizing it when he probably was just a tired parent trying to do a hard job at a difficult time. I talked with my grandson about it and we let it go.

    But my point is this: it doesn't take much for an adult to bruise a child. It seems a child's thin wrists would be bruised if they were being grasped tightly enough to pull her entire body weight down two floors. I saw nothing in the autopsy about bruising on the wrists, where the ligatures were also tied and no bruising from them was present, either.

    There would also be drag marks across the carpet, dirt and carpet fibers on the clothes where they were dragged against the floor.

    Maybe I am wrong, but what I'm getting from the autopsy is that the only marks on the back of JonBenet's body were the few tiny ones I've mentioned, at the shoulder, the lower back, and the back leg, measured in eighths and sixteenths of an inch. There was some lividity and some petechial hemorrhaging, but the autopsy quotes relevant to me here are: "Examination of the extremities is unremarkable. ...Examination of the back is unremarkable."

    If I'm missing something, I'm sorry, I really have to struggle with medical terminology in this autopsy. We've certainly discussed it ad nauseum through the years, but it's still hard for me because I don't use these terms regularly.
     
  19. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I think it was Wolfmarsgirl at WebSleuths who first posted photos of her theory that Patsy's rings turned inward on her hands could have made those marks (including the one on JonBenet's face) if she were cradling JonBenet tightly. WG's diamond rings made similar impressions when pushed into her own flesh.

    At least one photo was also posted of Patsy that showed her rings turned inward that way. It was posited that perhaps weight loss had made her rings loose so the stones turned palm-wise.

    WG posted further how she had cradled her four-year-old trying to see if her hands would match up with the position of the marks. They did match if WG held her daughter's head on WG's right arm up against WG's shoulder with WG's right hand pressing against the lower right side of her daughter's face. WG's left hand was wrapped tightly around her daughter's torso with the crook of WG's left arm absorbing most of the weight of that part of her daughter's body. In that position, WG's left hand matched the marks JonBenet's shoulder/back.

    At the time, we thought about Patsy cradling JonBenet after the head injury, crying and praying for her to be brought back to life ... but perhaps the marks were made a little later as Patsy clasp JonBenet tightly while she carried her down into the basement.

    Here's a link to WG's web page that shows her photos:

    http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html
     
  20. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    The garland found in her hair could be from being carried downstairs also.
     
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