Lizzie Borden vs. Patsy R.

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Greenleaf, Jan 12, 2006.

  1. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    I found this on the Lizzie Borden Site: (Just substitute Patsy's name for Lizzie's)
    http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomf...projects/ftrials/LizzieBorden/bordenhome.html

    Fourteen Reasons to Believe
    Lizzie Murdered Her Parents
    1. If not Lizzie, then who? Only Lizzie had a good opportunity to commit the murders. At the time of her mother's murder (around 9:30 A.M.), household guest John Morse was visiting relatives, sister Emma was out of town, Andrew Borden was running errands around town, and maid Bridget Sullivan was outside washing windows. Only Lizzie was known to be in the house at the time of Abby Borden's murder. To commit both murders (Andrew Borden was murdered around 11 A.M.), an outside intruder would have either have had to hide in the house for 90 minutes or departed and then returned without being seen.

    2. It looks like an inside job. Police found no signs of forced entry into the Borden home (despite the fact that the Borden's habitually locked their doors) and nothing appeared to have been stolen. No stranger was seen entering or leaving the Borden house on the morning of the murders.

    3. Although Lizzie claimed to have been downstairs at the very time her mother was violently murdered upstairs, she said she heard no alarming noises--this despite her mother having been struck multiple times with an axe and falling to the floor.

    4. On August 3, the day before the murders, witnesses identified Lizzie Borden as having visited Smith's drug store in Fall River, where she attempted to purchase a poison, prussic acid. She explained that she needed the acid to clean a sealskin cape. The druggist refused to sell the prussic acid. Patsy visited hardware store?

    5. On the night before the murders, Lizzie visited a neighbor, Alice Russell, and told her that she feared that some unidentified enemy of her father's might soon try to kill him.

    6. Lizzie told police that while she was alone in the house with her mother on the morning of the murder, a messenger came to the door with a note summoning her mother to visit a sick friend. Lizzie told people that she assumed her mother had left. Despite a thorough search of the Borden home, no such alleged note ever was found.

    7. When Bridget Sullivan came back inside after having finished washing outside windows, around 10:30 A.M., she reported hearing a muffled laugh coming from upstairs. She assumed that it was Lizzie making the noise. (Lizzie, of course, denied being upstairs during this time period between her mother's murder and her father's murder.) Neighbor heard scream.

    8. At the time of the murder of Andrew Borden, Lizzie claimed to have been in the loft of the backyard barn for 15 to 20 minutes looking for lead sinkers for a fishing excursion. Police found the loft so stiflingly hot that it was difficult to believe anyone would voluntarily remain in such a place for as much as 20 minutes. They also found no footprints in the loft that could substantiate Lizzie's story.

    9. Lizzie had a strained relationship with her step-mother. They usually ate their meals separately. Some theorize that Lizzie resented the fact that her father transferred a Falls River property to Abby's sister, rather than to her. Police noted that during her interview, Lizzie insisted that Abby be described as her "step-mother," not her mother.

    10. Although Lizzie appeared to have a somewhat better relationship with her distant and forbidding father, there were problems there as well. Lizzie was outraged, for example, when her father beheaded pigeons in the barn loft for which she had built a roost. (Her father thought the pigeons attracted neighborhood boys, who broke into the barn to hunt the pigeons.) Beheaded? Sounds familiar.

    11. In the week before the murders, following an apparent family argument, Lizzie and her sister Emma left Fall River by coach for New Bedford. When Lizzie returned, she chose to stay in a rooming house for four days, rather than in her own room in the family residence.

    12. In 1891, cash and jewelry were stolen from the master bedroom in the Borden home. It was an open secret that Lizzie was suspected as having been the thief. Lizzie also had been accused by several local merchants of shoplifting. (Yes, murder is far different that stealing--but it does suggest that Lizzie was hardly a model daughter.)

    13. Immediately after the discovery of her parents' bodies, Lizzie sent various persons who came to help off on various errands. It seems strange that a woman would choose to remain alone in a house if she thought a murderer still might be nearabouts on the loose.

    14. On August 7, three days after the murders, Alice Russell observed Lizzie burning a blue corduroy dress in a kitchen fire. When asked about it, Lizzie explained that she chose to destroy the dress because it was stained with old paint.
     
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Really interesting, Greenleaf.

    You know, I'm sure, the jury of men just couldn't believe that an upper class woman could commit such a crime. Not guilty.

    Another thing interesting about this crime, if memory serves: Mr. Borden was very stingy. While they had money and lived in a part of town not considered a slum, Mr. Borden wouldn't do any modern remodeling and they actually lived quite modestly. I am thinking (correct me if I'm wrong-I read a book on this case but it's been years) Lizzie moved into a fine home when the trial was over, in a part of either that town or another town where the wealthy citizens lived. Some thought that was Lizzie's motive: she was tired of her father denying them comforts and status.
     
  3. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    koldkase

    KK, you are right. The men on the jury couldn't believe that Lizzie, from such a nice family, could commit such a crime.

    You are right, too, about Mr. Borden being stingy. The Borden's didn't exatly live in a slum, but they lived very modestly; not having indoor plumbing, etc. Lizzie did move into a fine home, after her acquittal,(along with her sister, who, inherted half of their parents estate) into a beautiful home in an up scale neighborhood. They lived there for several years, mostly snubbed by the neighbors, until Lizzie became somewhat of a "cause celebre." With so many odd characters coming and going, in and out of the house, Lizzie's sister moved out; never to speak to her again.

    Those who know a lot about the case, have written that Lizzie's motives were obvious: She hated her father for beheading all her pet pigeons, she absolutely hated her step mother, while aspiring to live in a grander place. Also, she found out that her father had a new will, leaving everything to her stepmother. Lizzie was very conniving and strong willed. There are a lot of things about Lizzie's personality that reminds me of Patsy.

    A footnote: "Her supporters said it was impossible for a well-bred woman to have been responsible for such atrocious murders."

    GL
    :leaf:
     
  4. Aurora

    Aurora Member

    Lizzie

    Another reason she got off of murder charges is they never found the weapons. Years later it was determined she may have disposed of them in their outside toilet. Of course they didn't search down there!
     
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yeah, bet that was a tough call!
     
  6. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    More Lizzie vs Patsy stuff

    Although some 103 years seperate JBR's murder from Lizzie's parents murder, there's a lot the two cases have in common. (Not to mention similarities between Lizzie and Patsy's personas.)

    FROM THE LIZZIE BORDEN SITE:
    "For the most part, the defense called witnesses to verify the presence of a mysterious young man in the vicinity of the Borden home.. " The running man?

    "The murder investigation, chaotic and stumbling as it was, can be reconstructed from the four official judicial events in the Lizzie Borden case: The inquest, the preliminary hearing, the Grand Jury hearing, and the trial. Basically, a circumstantial case against Lizzie was developed without the precise identification of a murder weapon, with no incriminating physical evidence --- for example, bloodstained clothes --- and no clear and convincing motive. Also, the case against Lizzie was hampered by the inability of the investigators to produce a corroborated demonstration of time and opportunity for the murders."

    "Lizzie Borden took an axe
    And gave her mother forty whacks.
    And when she saw what she had done,
    She gave her father forty-one.
    "

    The Ram case is crying out for a similar little ditty.


    "The Grand Jury heard the case of Lizzie Borden during the last week of its session. Prosecutor Hosea Knowlton finished his presentation and surprisingly invited defense attorney Jennings to present a case for the defense. This was unheard of in Massachusetts. In effect, a trial was being conducted before the Grand Jury. It appeared for a time that the charge against Lizzie would be dismissed." Sounds familiar?

    Lizzie's home has been transformed into a bread & breakfast place.Now, if we really want to shake up the RST, let's have our next FFJ meeting at the Lizzie Borden Bread and Breakfast place in Fall River, Mass.

    http://www.lizzie-borden.com/


    Tricia, Moab, & everyone else, listen up. Think of the great publicity our Forum, and our quest for justice, would receive if we met there. Our reason for choosing the old Lizzie home? Because Patsy reminds us so much of a woman who got away with murder, and we want to call attention to the abuse and murder of our most helpless citizens; the young and the old
    We also want to call attention to Judges who turn a blind eye to the horrendous, despicable nature of child abusers. Plus, we want to expose all those who have aided and abetted child abusers.

    By the way, two of the Investigators were:
    Deputy Marshal, John Fleet, and Edward Wood.

    Lizzie's name: Lizzie Andrew Borden, age 32.
    Lizzie's father: Andrew Borden, age 70

    Greenleaf
    :leaf:

    Let's see now:
    Patsy Ramsey took a__________
    Maybe later.
     
  7. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    Hurry shut the door and latch it
    Here comes Patsy with a brand new hatchet!
     
  8. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    Moab

    Oh, how quick our Moab is
    To pen an ode about our Liz

    GL


    LOL!
     
  9. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    "The Ram case is crying out for a similar little ditty."

    I've tried! The best I could come up with was a parody of "Folsom Prison Blues," and I don't think much of it.

    "the jury of men just couldn't believe that an upper class woman could commit such a crime."

    You've hit it dead-on. Lizzie Borden was found not guilty because no one believed that a "small, weak woman" could A) wield an ax with murder on her mind, and B) work up enough rage to do it. A woman's "preferred" method was to poison in cold blood. Even today, the FBI thinks that a good percentage of unsolved murders were committed by women who escaped notice because nobody thought that a "girl" could kill.
     
  10. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    Rumor has it that a certain forum owner spent their honeymoon at the Lizzie Borden house. Isn't that sick?
     
  11. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Fall River, MA

    A friend of mine visited the Borden house and was so very surpirsed how tiny it is. Though it is a 2 story it is narrow and shallow. The upstairs bedrooms don't have a hallway outside of them (or at least in Lizzy's day they didn't). I think you have to go through one bedroom to get to the other. Very strange floor plan is the way my friend described it. (She had her husband lie down on the divan where Andrew was murdered and she took his picture.) Though in it's day when the Bordens lived there it was average for the area, I do think that Lizzy wanted more than her Father was willing to give her and her sister. And there was some speculation that Lizzy and her Father were closer than Father and daughter should have been.

    In another lifetime and many years ago I belonged to a crime book club on line with the old Prodigy. We discussed this case all ways to Sunday way back then. One of the things that I found very interesting after reading one of the books was about that border John Morse who happened to be there in the house that day. He left on an errand just before the murders were committed and had a pretty good alibi for himself. It was that he caught the trolly which was about a minute late, knew the conductors badge number and the exact time of when he disembarked that trolly. For someone who takes the trolly often that seemed to me to be just too precise. Anyway there was nothing that came of it at all but I found it interesting. WHy on that day would you remember the conductors badge number and then on your trip home not remember that one? See what I mean. And he was asked by the police to do just that. I have no idea what his connection to the case might be except for that very precise alibi just when he needed it! Oh and our group of 12 thought that Lizzy was guilty hands down BTW. Her sister was the one who seemed to be affected more by the horrible publicity than did Lizzy and lived out her life in almost total seclusion apart from Lizzy.
     
  12. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    Sick, yes......but not suprising. Sue Bennett can be traced back to Massachussetts, that is where she was listed at the same address as that Hamm woman in Boulder.

    RR
     
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    You are so clever, Greenleaf. You make all of this so interesting! Better than TV!

    And... the prize goes to Moab: :star:


    Hurry shut the door and latch it
    Here comes Patsy with a brand new hatchet! :)
     
  14. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    Some thoughts...

    Anyone who has spent their honeymoon at Lizzie Borden’s house has (IMO) forever lost their rights to utter certain words; namely, eerie, weird, morose, gauche, or morbid. :sick:

    Greenleaf
    :leaf:

    :sick:

    PS: Thank you, Elle 1.
     
  15. Skigwy

    Skigwy Member

    I thought this thread was gonna be like an Alien Vs Predator or Jason Meets Freddy, who would win kinda thing.
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, that would be some match: Patsy the Garroter vs Lizzie the Hacker. I'd buy tickets. Front and center.
     
  17. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    I'm more interested in the societal factors, or rather how the perception of women as killers hasn't changed at all, practically, in the last 100+ years.
     
  18. JustChillun

    JustChillun Member

    The weapons and the hairstyles have changed..........

    .......so do we call the match the Ultimate Killing Championship, UKC? Then any of these old women that win the fight could call themselves UKC champions. :dogpee:
     
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yep, I remember the loud exclamations of shock from the crowd gathered when the DA announced that Susan Smith had been arrested for murdering her children. Who anticipated that? She had no history. None that would have ever seen the light of publicity without her confession, anyway.

    I have no doubt that the "history" that resulted in JonBenet being murdered is very real and very taboo. I also doubt we'll ever hear of it. With only a lawyer to shut her up, Smith's history would be as unknown to anyone but those desperate to cover up the incest and molestation she suffered at the hands of her step-father. Susan's sorry mother wrote a book and went public blaming the children's father and Susan's husband David. Not her dear child molesting/incesting hubby, whom she still was married to when Susan drowned her sons so horribly. And whom Susan was then having consensual sex with, along with her other men.

    Yeah, I bet we'd have never have heard all that if Susan hadn't confessed. The detective she confessed to said he knew that if she walked out that day, he'd have lost any chance of her ever telling the truth.

    Now there's a detective who is legendary. He got the confession. And we know the "history" that led a woman to such a terrible act.

    There is a reason Haney asked Patsy if she'd ever been abused, if her sisters had ever talked to her about being abused. It wasn't a question he just thought of to pass the time.
     
  20. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    Horrible as it is to comtemplate, kk is likely right, or at least, is not alone.
     
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