Various ponderings, part 2

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by icedtea4me, Jan 21, 2006.

  1. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    1. I saw the transcript of the 5/31/00 LKL show with Thomas and the Ramseys over at the Swamp and it jogged my memory about an observation I made some time ago-

    KING: John, why did you agree to go on with Steve? This is rather historic. I'm trying to remember if there is television like this.

    J. RAMSEY: This man, as a police officer, has caused irreparable harm to my family. He has called my wife a murderer. He has called me a complicity to murder. He has called me a liar. He has slandered my relationship with my daughter, Patsy's relationship with JonBenet. He did that in public forum, which is reprehensible, and it needed to be addressed in a public forum.


    John does not fluently say "He has called me a complicity to murder". Instead, he says "He has called me..uh..uh.. (presses lips together at least twice in the m position)... complicity to murder". It's as if John wants to say that Steve has called him a murderer, then he says "complicity to murder". Why would John have the urge to say that Steve called him a murderer when Steve said that Patsy was the one who killed JonBenet?

    2. This is in regard to the polygraph test. Patsy was asked "Did you write the ransom note?", her response was "No" and it said she answered truthfully. Know what? I believe this is a truthful answer from Patsy. "What?!!", you exclaim in disbelief. "That's BS!" Please hear me out. What if when she wrote the note she did not consider it to be a ransom note? What if, instead, she considered it to be a confession note? Now, naturally, they weren't going to ask "Did you write the confession note?" Personally, if I had asked the question, I would not have given the note any kind of label. I would have asked something like "Did you write the two and a half page note which began 'Mr. Ramsey, Listen carefully' and ended with 'Victory! SBTC'?"


    -Tea
     
  2. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    Continued...

    3. The note mentions "an adequate size attache" and "a brown paper bag". There was a suitcase which contained a semen stained blanket and a children's book (Dr. Seuss?) found under the broken basement window. On pp 79-80 of PMPT (pb version) is this- Sometime that morning, Detective Arndt found a paper bag with children's clothing next to the den door, and she moved it into the cloakroom.

    Could these items be symbolic representations of the items mentioned in the note? If you look at Patsy's writing example from Cherokee's post #16 from the 'Linguistic, Graphical and Exemplar Analysis of the Ransom Note' thread, you will notice that instead of writing "bag" on line 17, Patsy wrote "BAG". This, to me, means that Patsy is trying to draw attention to a bag. (And I don't think this paper bag with the children's clothing inside had anything to do with the upcoming trip as Patsy said they would use plastic bags for that.)

    4. JonBenet was found wearing a gold ring on the middle finger of her right hand. This struck me as odd as I thought that most little girls would wear a ring on their right ring finger, not the middle one.


    -Tea
     
  3. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Tea,

    As for #4 of your notes re the wearing of the ring on a middle finger...perhaps that was only because the ring was a tad too large for the ring finger and fit more securely on the middle finger. I don't see any real significance in which finger she wore it on really. Why would that be important? What am I missing here?
     
  4. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    Well, zoomama, the ring being on the middle finger may be some sort of a clue, or maybe not. I was thinking that perhaps the ring was placed on that finger to draw attention to it. Now, why would Patsy want to draw attention to JonBenet's middle finger? In the note there is mention of a provocation and I feel that Patsy is communicating that JonBenet did something to provoke her. Therefore, could JonBenet have used her middle finger in a provocation? (Just something I've been mulling about for a while.)

    -Tea
     
  5. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    I have to weigh in with Zoomama on this one...I think only that the ring was a tad too big, and as any 6-year old little girl would be, JBR wanted to wear it anyway cause it was new and she had the patience of a gnat. Can't you just hear the conversation now...JBR wants to wear it...Patsy says no, it's too big you will lose it, we can get it sized next week...JBR says No, I want to wear it, and Patsy says OK, but put it on your middle finger so you won't lose it...
     
  6. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    Beating a lie-detector is a lot easier than most people think. That's why they can't be used in court.
     
  7. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    People, and that includes kids, wear rings on all their fingers. I purposely buy rings for my daughters that they can wear on their middle fingers or forefingers as something different from the standard third finger ring. I just don't see the significance of wearing the ring on her middle finger, unless it was a ring that said up yours on it.

    Punisher, I agree that lie detector equipment can be beat, but it isn't as easy as one might think. I think sociopaths might be able to beat one easier than normal people. I doubt very much I could beat one - I'm too honest, and I'd make a terrible liar. I understand there are ways, though, and most polygraphers are aware of those ways.
     
  8. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    I agree, WY, that people can and do wear rings on all their fingers. It would be nice to have a pic of JonBenet's right hand which shows her wearing that ring prior to her being killed. She very well may have been wearing that ring on her middle finger.
    Giving the finger to someone would be a good way to provoke them, wouldn't it?

    -Tea
     
  9. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    JBR had more class than Patsy!
     
  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you for starting this thread Tea. Various ponderings seems to be the right thread for this. Please excuse gaps (?). Thought I would try the scanner today. Gaps might be the transfer from the scanner to the file (?). I need a private fund for all the latest equipment. I think it's quicker to type it, because it also changes some of the letters. :-(



    ........................................................................................................

    I must admit I was surprised to see (Laughter) after Patsy's reply "The Kiss of Death." Just look at how much she remembers about herself, and cannot remember a damn thing when it comes to being asked about caring for JonBenét. She can't recall or remember. She sure loves tallking about herself.

    I think Patsy almost forgot the reason why she was there, to answer questions about her dead daughter. I realize this was Trujillo's way of relaxing her before the tougher questions, but with Miss Virginia not having a conscience, he could have saved himself some time. She didn't give a damn.

    As for winning the talent award, this was why I thought she had no problems in creating the foreign faction ransom note. It came easy to her!

    Editing to change a few more scanner errors. Look at this "scholars1rlp" - this is how scholarship turned out after scanning. I changed a few of them, but I wanted to double check again in case I missed some. I did! :( So ...I'm not scanning anything again folks. It's too much of a pain. So I'll just leave this post as it is, or I might be here all night. There has to be a reason for this, and I must find out unless someone out there knows and can very quickly tell me in simple terms please, why this happens (?).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2006
  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So right, Elle, and thanks for typing this out for us.

    I was re-reading Wecht's book last night, and I want to post something I read about Patsy, what her high school friends said about her personality. It's astonishing, in hindsight, and might shed some light on Miss W Virginia, because boy, did she ever follow through with her goals. Hint: the woman actually said in high school Patsy wanted to do IMPORTANT things. Remember, this book of Wecht's was published in 1997....

    And I also want to thank tea for starting this thread. We all seem to be finding a review, so many years and revelations later, very revealing....
     
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    I look forward to your post from Wecht's book, KK. I like Tea's choice of title, "Various Ponderings," because it covers a lot of ground in this case, and we keep falling over statements that jump out at us, as we browse through our books.

    I actually scanned the file above from the NE book KK, but I would have been quicker typing all of it as I said, because I had to change the errors it caused. Some letters turned out as understrokes and numbers :-( ... so I don't know that scanning is worth it. I want a CSI or an FBI gadget that I can hold over a book and send it right to my computer, without scanning and copying to a word
    processor.

    KK: Just in case you missed my editing above, I'm posting it again for your benefit. :)

    Editing to change a few more scanner errors. Look at this "scholars1rlp" - this is how scholarship turned out after scanning. I changed a few of them, but I wanted to double check again in case I missed some. I did! :( So ...I'm not scanning anything again folks. It's too much of a pain. So I'll just leave this post as it is, or I might be here all night. There has to be a reason for this, and I must find out unless someone out there knows and can very quickly tell me in simple terms please, why this happens (?).<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2006
  13. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    From what I've heard regarding these contests, Elle, is that if you win the talent portion or are named Miss Congeniality, you can pretty well kiss the Miss America crown goodbye. So I think that is why she laughingly referred to her winning the talent title as "the kiss of death".


    Not only that, but it showed that she has the ability to think fast in a crisis.

    -Tea
     
  14. Elle

    Elle Member

    I was relating the way Patsy laughed after she said "Kiss of Death" with her being interviewed by detectives after the death of JonBenét, Tea. I wonder if anyone else thought that (?),but I can also see it the way you're seeing it too.
     
  15. Tez

    Tez Member

    I am sure flashing red neon signs went off in their collective heads. I forgotten all about this until this thread!

    Thanks Tea and Elle!
     
  16. Skigwy

    Skigwy Member

    So Patsy's two writing credits are "Kiss of Death" and "Death of Innocence".

    I wonder if KOD makes as interesting reading as DOI.
     
  17. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    Technically, Skigwy, the dramatic piece she wrote and read for the Miss America pageant was called Deadline. This was done because she couldn't get clearance to read the Miss Jean Brodie dialogue. I'd imagine that Deadline would have to be good since she won the talent portion with it however, unlike DOI, it wouldn't be filled with John's inconsistencies.

    -Tea
     
  18. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    wounds on back and leg

    From the autopsy report {bolding mine]- On the left lateral aspect of the lower back, approximately sixteen and one-quarter inches and seventeen and one-half inches below the level of the top of the head are two dried rust colored to slightly purple abrasions. The superior of the two measures one-eighth by one-sixteenth of an inch and the more inferior measures three-sixteenths by one-eighth of an inch. There is no surrounding contusion identified. On the posterior aspect of the lower left leg, almost in midline, approximately four inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored. They measure one-sixteenth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch and one-eighth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch respectively.


    The wounds on her back are always discussed, but the ones on the back of her leg are rarely mentioned. It's interesting how both pairs of wounds are on the same side of the body. So, what if these wounds weren't inflicted two times with a small object (and I don't mean with a stun-gun)? What if they were inflicted somehow by a longer object that would cover the span between the top back wound and the lower leg wound? Elle, I think you mentioned something about there being dried blood spots on her blanket. If there are, indeed, dried blood spots on her blanket, could there be a connection to them and the wounds?

    -Tea
     
  19. Elle

    Elle Member

    From memory, Tea, Linda Hoffman Pugh stated she thought the rust coloured spots on the blanket may have come from JonBenét's soiled bed. This part would need researched again.

    This poor little girl not only wet the bed, but also soiled the bed in a more unpleasant way. Taking off a dirty diaper and throwing it in the garbage is an easy way of cleaning up, but when it comes to finding it in the bed as LHP stated "sometimes the size of a grapefruit" then I'm sure Patsy's patience must have been exhausted. If this happened on Christmas night, then Patsy would have really hauled JonBenét out of her bed, and a screaming match would have been the result.

    Discussions on the boards have JonBenét being dragged along the floor, which could have caused abrasions on her back, and on the backs of her legs. I think most of us feel she wasn't killed in the actual basement, so... maybe she was dragged there (?).

    When it comes to the blanket, I feel JonBenét was already dead and on her back when she was covered with her own white blanket. The brown marks could have come from previous stains that never washed out (?). Plus, LHP did say, the blanket and sheets were usually in the wash when she arrived most mornings. Or, they may have come from her legs being cut here and there as she was dragged over something sharp, and the blood soaking into the blanket, but if they were fresh blood stains, they would have taken a longer time to turn brown.

    What type of object comes into your mind, Tea, when you mention this?
    Do you see the object in Patsy's hand, as in Patsy taking a swipe at JB running away from her? Or being dragged over a stabilized object?

    Dr. Henry Lee mentioned that the basement may not have been the scene of the crime. I don't think it was. The basement itself is part of the staging. No intruder would know their way about the Ramsey basement, but the Ramseys themselves.
     
  20. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    The people in the crime lab most likely did a chemical analysis of those stains and have not revealed the results of their findings

    I would think that, unlike bedwetting, elimination of fecal material would be a pretty conscious act for a six year old.

    Nah... the result would be rug burns which, imo, would be more pronounced.

    Well, just going by the description of the rust colored wounds on her back and the back of her left leg, I'd say that occurred via the process of oxydation.

    Not having been inside the house, of course, the only thing that comes to mind that would be that length would be the frame of the broken window. I don't buy John's story about him breaking the window that previous summer. I think it was broken that night and, when it was, something was draped over it to muffle the sound. Teeny tiny wood slivers from corners of the frame could have gotten caught in whatever was used to cover it. Then I think JonBenet was placed on this covering temporarily and the wood splinters came in contact with her skin on her back and leg. And with her being on her back and the blood settling down in the process of livor mortis there would still be enough to account for the rust colored abrasions. Then I think Patsy took her blanket and washed it in the laundry area downstairs so she could have a fresh clean blanket to be wrapped up in. This is Patsy from DOI pg 287 [bolding mine]: I couldn't say for sure if the blanket had been on her bed that night. Often we wash our bedding in the large washer and dryer, which were in the basement, rather than use the smaller stackable unit on the second floor. Could the blanket and nightgown have been removed from that dryer?

    Her bedding had always been washed in the second floor laundry area. It's right outside her bedroom so it's convenient to do it there. And now Patsy says that it was washed in the basement. There's something hinky about that. Why would the nightgown and blanket be together unless by accident? And what intruder is going to have the mind to go to the basement laundry area specifically looking for a blanket to wrap her up in?

    Where do you think it took place, Elle? I certainly don't think the tieing of the cord around her neck occurred in her bedroom. I mean, what if Burke should happen to walk in? No, I think that happened in the basement because that's where the paint tray was. Also, I'd think that the basement was chosen so they could distance themselves psychologically from it.

    One last thing to think about - The wounds on the left side of her back and the back of her left leg near the heel are similar in size and composition. So, let's say this "intruder" did "stun-gun" her in the back. Why would he choose to do it again above the back of her left heel which, I'd think, would be quite awkward. Why not again on the back?

    -Tea
     
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