John Ramsey found JonBenet at 11 in the morning?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Golden_Rose, Feb 21, 2006.

  1. Golden_Rose

    Golden_Rose Member

    In the book JonBenet by Steve Thomas it said:
    A witness broke the truth about John Ramsey's time of finding JonBenet's body. Stewart Long ( Melinda's boyfriend) said that when they arrived at 1pm they were only aware that JonBenet had been kidnapped. Steward said John Ramsey climed into a van with him and John Andrew. He told them that " JonBenet is with Beth now." John described how he had discovered the body around 11 o' clock that morning. The same time Detective Arndt thought John went to get the mail.
    I am wondering what is this all about and is it true or not?
     
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    Steve Thomas would not have written about this if it had not been true.
    It is true. In Steve Thomas "JonBenét PB page 156-157 Stewart Long phoned Steve Thomas and broke his silence. A slip of the tongue by John Ramsey, to his son, John Andrew, in a van outside the Ramsey home on 26 December, 1996, caused doubts as to the exact time John Ramsey found JonBenét's body, which was found just after 1:00 pm. by JohnRamsey and Fleet White, with Det. Linda Arndt. on the premises.

    Of course, in the usual Ramsey manner, it was brushed under the rug.
     
  3. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    And let's not forget what John said in the doc that aired on A&E- "...called the police, sat around for four hours, then I went downstairs and found the body."

    Could John's mentioning of 11:00 be in reference to central standard time for John Andrew, Melinda and Stewart who were in Minnesota which is in that time zone?

    -Tea
     
  4. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    If you were conversing with someone in another time zone, and you were telling of what time you got out of bed that morning, would you say you arose at 7am (your time), or 8am (their time)?

    I believe when JR said he found the body at 11, it was a rare truth from him.
     
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    Steve Thomas "JonBenét" page 156-157

    I almost dropped the telephone as I reached to make sure the "record" button was pressed on my tape recorder. "When you say eleven o'clock that morning, are you assuming that was Mountain time or Eastern time?"

    I'm assuming that was Mountain time. He said 11 o'clock, so I'm assuming he was speaking of his own time reference.
     
  6. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    The note said a call would be made between 8 and 10. The deadline for the call has passed. I just think it makes more sense for him to have come across the body closer to the 10 a.m. time, as opposed to the 11 a.m. time. I mean, why wait an hour? Also, if it was 11 a.m., then why wouldn't John have said "We called the police, sat around for five hours, then I went downstairs (actually, he says 'downscares') and found her body"?

    This past Saturday evening I was talking to a friend of mine who resides in the EST zone, while I'm in the CST zone. She had to go do something but said she'd call me back. I looked at my watch and asked if she could call back 45 minutes later at 10:00 - her time.

    I guess, basically, when all is said and done, the point is that John had contact with JonBenet's body at least 2-3 hours prior to the "official" time of finding her at 1:00 p.m.

    -Tea
     
  7. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    After 10:00 came and went w/o the call, Linda Arndt was still giving JR instructions on what to say to the kidnappers, i.e. tell them you can't get the money till 5:00 pm, IOW it was clear LE was in for the long haul - all day all night. Then the kidnapping scenario abruptly ended at 1:00 with not many details in between IMO.
     
  8. LurkerXIV

    LurkerXIV Moderator

    John Ramsey--Congenital Liar

    Why would a person, innocent of the murder and the coverup, wait from 11 a.m. until 1 p.m. to notify authorities and all the guests at the house that he had discovered the body?

    This is one of those "consciousness of guilt" things that pop out at you.
     
  9. wombat

    wombat Member

    Why wait? How about this:

    1. John knew nothing when he heard Patsy's scream at 530 AM. Then he took a look at the ransom note and saw Patsy's handwriting, more or less, but he went with it, because - Where's JonBenet?

    2. He has to deal with hysterical Patsy, then the cops, so he's not focussing on the handwriting.

    3. After Patsy plays him for a while by making him get ransom money from various funds, he has a moment to think about what's actually going on.

    4. It's 11 AM. He goes downstairs and finds the child. He doesn't yell, that's not John, but he's smart and sits and thinks. What he has here is another daughter dead, a wife with ovarian cancer, a business that takes all his time, and a young son that he loves - so, he goes back upstairs and thinks some more. Maybe the calculation was that he already suffered enough, and that he could control the situation.

    5. 1 PM - perform the "delivery" of JonBenet from the basement.

    Another scenario I think is likely is that he knew Fleet White had looked in the "wine cellar" and didn't see JonBenet because the light from the hallway didn't reach her body, but John knew she was there, so he had to arrange for a search where he could be the first one to open the door.
     
  10. Tez

    Tez Member

    That sounds plausible Wombat!
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    I must admit, Wombat, I have also thought this scene you have just described, could have happened, because of John Ramsey's agitation when he came back up from the basement. One can imagine the horror John Ramsey was faced with, if he did actually come across JonBenét's body at 11:00 am. Especially when this was the statement he made in the van to his son, John Andrew.

    I'm positive he knew where the body was when he headed for the basement, when asked to find anything out of place, or unusual by Linda Arndt.

    Yes, Wombat, it could have happened this way, thrusting the whole staging shebang on Patsy Ramsey (?). Steve Thomas thinks it happened this way.
     
  12. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Wombat,

    Your theory sounds good but I have a question for you. Why was it so important for JR to "find" the body? Why not let FW or another LE pereson find her. Wouldn't that make his being "so innocent" even more believable. When he did find her and carried her upstairs he held her like a dirty old board with nails everywhere when he carried her upstairs. This was his own flesh and blood ferpetessake. As they went down the stairs to search again John could have said to FW, "you look on that side and I'll take this side or some such thing."

    And as far as his exclaimation of " OH NO" when he went into the room...I have had the thought for years that what he was remarking about was perhaps the odor of death that had begun to form in that precious little body and not "oh here she is and how awful"!!!!! Just MHO is all.
     
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    I doubt John Ramsey could have carried JonBenét's body in any other way than he did, Zoomama, because rigor mortis had already set in. He couldn't hold the body any closer to his own, because the poor little girl was as stiff as a board, and could only move his own legs upstairs by holding her above the movement of his own knees.
     
  14. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    Here is a footnote from Dr. James O. Raney's review of Dr. Hodges' Who Will Speak for JonBenet from The International Journal of Communicative Psychoanalysis & Psychotherapy-

    According to another account, the police had searched the house, but oddly did not search the small room in which John Ramsey 'discovered' the body. According to profiler John Douglas, if John Ramsey were staging the crime, he would have arranged for someone else to discover the body. Douglas may overlook the need for Ramsey to control, which would make delegating the discovery, especially indirectly, impossible (Douglas 2000).

    -Tea
     
  15. wombat

    wombat Member

    I agree with Tea, Zoomama - it was all about control. If the scenario includes John being part of the staging from the beginning, and put JonBenet in there, then he was probably freaking out after both LE and FW went near the room and did not find her. The pressure John felt to have the kidnapping play proceed to its final act must have been crushing. If he and the missus did it together, then it was something like hour twelve since John put JonBenet in the windowless room.

    That is a long time to maintain control of an out of control situation (aka Patsy), especially if you are an engineer/geek control freak who is so good at manipulating things to go your way that you managed to amalgamate a bullsmit hardware/software distribution company (Access Graphics) and dump it on a huge corporation (Lockheed Martin) for a big pile of bucks and a dandy employment contract. John has the cojones to do stuff like that, but it all happens in board rooms and conference calls, very structured environments. When JonBenet wasn't being found even though they were very close to her, he would be getting STRESSED because his plan wasn't working out, and the dangers of it spinning out of control were huge. He didn't want his son's mother in jail during her last battle with cancer.

    Now, if he knew nothing about it until he started thinking about the handwriting on the ransom note, a slightly different scenario emerges, but he would have behaved the same. I know how the guy thinks. He observes the situation (reviews the data), discerns the likeliness of certain scenarios (identifies the data trends), figures out the consequences of the senarios (the endpoint the data is trending to) identifies the most beneficial endpoint for him (optimum result), and performs actions that will move the data to his endpoint (influences the data to produce the result). None of this has anything at all to do with emotion.

    Say he didn't know about anything until he read the note and identified the handwriting - which is one nasty data point if you are John Ramsey. He then knew that something very bad has happened, worse than a kidnapping, and he has to start actions that will re-establish his control of the outcome. He's got to calm down the hysterical Patsy, probably with drugs. Confronting her was pointless; he knew that. He let her sit over in the sunroom with her girlfriends the entire morning, where she could function emotionally in the world of women while he figured a few things out.

    He may have found JonBenet before LE even arrived, and probably knew on sight of them that the crack Boulder PD delegates sent to the house were no threat. I think it's hugely important that he got Burke to clam up (control) before the cops arrived - we know he was yelling at his son at the end of the 911 call, who was asking Daddy "what did you find?"

    So, he dosed Patsy and let her/encouraged her to surround herself with a greek chorus. He got Burke play possum. All he had to do then was manipulate the cops. Easy.

    I agree with you, Zoomama, about the little "oh no!" exclamation. He lost it a little there. The first words out of his mouth when he saw his daughter should have been "JonBenet!!! Are you all right?"
     
  16. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    I agree about the control issue, but I have other thoughts on it, too.

    I think JR expected the cops to search the house thoroughly and "find" JB. That was his first expectation and his first plan. As the morning progressed, he became more and more agitated, especially after he made his little trip to the basement. He knew his daughter was lying in that filthy basement room. He had never planned that she would be there that long - call the police, they will search the house (as they should have), and they would find her. It wouldn't have made any difference in their stories.

    It didn't happen that way, and he was feeling the guilt of his part in what had happened to JB. He wanted her found quickly, but he couldn't give his hand away. When Linda Ardnt asked him and FW to look around the house for anything that looked out of the norm, that gave him the opening he needed to get his daughter out of that basement room, and he did precisely that. He did what he had to do. He never wanted to be the one to "find" her, but it was working on him so much, he had to be the one and bring it to an end. Only then could he and Patsy get on with the rest of their plan, which was to deny, stonewall, and, yes, grieve, because no one meant to kill JB that night. The guilt had to have been awful, but self preservation overrode everything. JB was gone. They were alive. They did what they had to do.

    Simple.
     
  17. wombat

    wombat Member


    I absolutely agree with everything you say. When he got the "opening" to get JonBenet "discovered", he made a beeline to the basement room, didn't look left or right. Curtain down on the three-act play, "Kidnapping".
     
  18. LurkerXIV

    LurkerXIV Moderator

    Those Ramseys.

    Did anyone see the Chris Cuomo interview with Joran Vander Sloot last night?

    Memories of all Ramsey interviews came back to me as I watched it. Lying sociopaths are all the same. Especially the ones who have lots of money to pay to PR teams and image-makers.

    The worst part is that these well-to-do criminals usually get away with murder.
     
  19. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    OK Wombat,

    I do find value in what you are putting forth here as to the control issue. But remember that up until she was found it was a "kidnapping". Why wouldn't JR just keep it to that for as long as he could. Control issues aside if it was a kidnapping then both parents are certainly in the clear. Let that ride for as long as it can go. Who knows how long it might have been that she was found if he just let it ride so to speak?

    Someplace along the line I have either read or heard from commentators on TV that what JR could have said to his atty right off the bat was something like this: "You know how this is gonna look don't you. Them finding JBR body in MY basement. They will think I did it right away". Well, maybe that is what I'm baseing my opinion on. That is why I find it so strange that he found her body and not let anyone else find her.

    And I do disagree with the thought that carrying her body in that wooden way was the only thing he could do. He could have hugged her tightly to his chest and tilted her slighty to one side so he could climb the stairs. OH, I can't begin to think of what he may have been feeling (if anything) at that moment...grief, pain, loss, anger, hate. But no I seriously doubt that Mr. emotionless felt anything at that moment. He was think of how it would look.
     
  20. EasyWriter

    EasyWriter FFJ Senior Member

     
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