A little different approach...

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by SeekingJustice, Mar 25, 2006.

  1. The murder of six year old JonBenet Ramsey has always baffled me. I am one of those of those people who Lin Wood refers to as a “disturbed individual.†I have followed the case for over 6 years on the Internet, reading every book and magazine article on the case I can find. One thing that has always baffled me about this case is the reluctance of Boulder police to follow the evidence. They were so focused on the Ramsey’s that they missed all of the red flags. This Christmas will mark the ten year anniversary of JonBenet’s murder. Sadly, I feel as if we are no closer to finding her killer then we were ten years ago. It is time to look in another direction and look for who really killed JonBenet Ramsey.

    My research on this case has given me several ideas as to what may have happened that night in the Ramsey home. The following information goes to show what I believed happened to JonBenet Ramsey. It's long, but this is a very complicated case, and I felt like if I was going to state information I needed to back up my claims... I realize that there are a lot of things that I am not including in this, such as the pineapple in her stomach.... I will address these issues later. This is just a basic outline. The full theory is to long to post in one piece.

    The Ramsey’s return home December 25, 1996:

    "After leaving the Stines', we returned to our house and drove down the narrow alley to our garage at the back of the house. I pushed the automatic garage door opener, and we rolled in. On the way home, JonBenet had fallen fast asleep in the back seat. I got her out of the car and carried her upstairs to her room, laid her on the bed, and took off her coat and shoes. I was amazed at how sound asleep she was. It had been a long day for her. Patsy came in to finish getting JonBenet ready for bed. Meanwhile, I went downstairs to get Burke to come up to bed, but he was deeply involved in assembling the miniature parking garage he had received that morning. I could tell he wasn't going to go to bed until the project was finished, so I settled down on the floor beside him. Helping him complete what his mind was focused on was the best way to get us both in bed quickly. At about 9:30 I led Burke upstairs and got him ready for bed, then tucked him in and turned out the light. I went on up to our room on the third floor which we had converted from an attic space to a master suite in 1993. Patsy was already in bed. I got ready, took a melanin tablet to insure a good night's sleep, set the alarm clock for 5:30 am, and read in bed for a short while before turning out the light.Unfortunately I slept soundly." (Death of Innocence, HB, PG 8)

    "Officers reconstructed some of the timeline of the previous night from the parents' recollections. John Ramsey said the family returned home from the party about ten o'clock, and he read to both children before they went to sleep. He confirmed to Arndt that he had read to JonBenet after tucking her in. He would later deny these statements as well. The parents said that everyone was in bed by ten-thirty because they had to be up early for the flight to Michigan, where they had planned to spend a belated Christmas at their vacation home with Ramsey’s older children, then go to Florida for a cruise on Disney's Big Red Boat. Patsy said JonBenet went to sleep wearing long white underwear and a red turtleneck top."
    (JonBenet, PG 23)


    -Now I realize that there are very few people on this forum who believe that the Ramsey's are innocent, but please keep reading.


    -The Ramsey’s had left that afternoon around 5 or 6 and returned home between 9 and 10 that night. I agree with Lou Smit, I believe her killer was in the house when the Ramsey’s came home. The Ramsey's were gone for about 4 to 5 hours giving an intruder plenty of time to enter the house, walk around and get familiar with the floor plan, write a ransom note, and find a good place to hide. (The pad and pen that was used to write the ransom note came from inside the Ramsey home and belonged to Patsy)

    -According to the Ramsey’s JonBenet was wearing a red turtle neck when they put her to bed; however, when she was found the next day in the basement she was not wearing a red turtle neck, she was wearing a long-sleeved white shirt with a star on it. As confusing as this may sound or be I believe the answer to this question could be very simple. Turtle necks are hot. The turtle neck was found wadded up by the bathroom sink. This is not something a parent or an adult would do. I believe sometime after she was put to bed she became hot and changed shirts. I realize that there is a huge debate over if she was really asleep when the Ramsey's came home that night, but lets just go out on a limb here and go by what the Ramsey's have said.

    The Ramsey’s wake up December 26,1996:

    This is where things start to get tricky... When you start reading you may be confused at first, but stay with me...

    OK. As we all know, there is a lot of confusion as to what exactly happened the morning of December 26. Patsy and John seemed to have different stories and different orders of events...

    Patsy Ramsey: "I was fussing around getting some clothes and glanced at her door and the door was closed. I always left it ajar a little bit. I just started downstairs and there were these pieces of paper lying on one of the rungs of the stairs. I kind of turned around and looked at it to see what it was and I started reading the first couple of lines. It just wasn't registering but somewhere it said, 'we have your daughter' it clicked, you know, 'Your Daughter' and I just bounded back up the steps and threw her door open and she was not in her bed." (A&E Documentary 'Who Killed JonBenet')

    Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I remember racing over and her door was just kind of slightly ajar.. three, four inches, you know."
    Tom Haney: "Okay. Is that the way you left it the night before?"
    Patsy Ramsey: "Yes, that's usually the way I left it." (National Enquirer "JonBenet, The Police Files)


    "While Reichenbach drove to the house, Mrs. Ramsey was telling Officer French that she had gone into JonBenet's bedroom at 5:45 A.M. to awaken her daughter because the family planned to fly to Michigan that morning. The bedroom was empty, and when she descended a spiral staircase, she found the note on the lower rung. John Ramsey said he had checked the house, and it appeared to still be locked as he had left it the night before. He saw no signs of forced entry or a struggle. The alarm system had not been engaged, their small dog had spent the night at a neighbor's home, and the Ramseys had heard nothing unusual during the night." (Steve Thomas, "JonBenet," PG 17-18)

    "It soon became clear that Patsy Ramsey had changed a very important part of her story and that her statements about her initial movements were inconsistent. It raised some doubts when investigators compared their notes. She originally told Officer French that she checked the bedroom before finding the note on the stairs, but she later told Detective Arndt that she went downstairs and found the note first and only then hurried to the bedroom and found JonBenet gone." (Steve Thomas "JohnBenet," PG 23)

    COURIC: Another point I just want to clarify. Apparently, it's been reported that you've given two different versions of when you actually looked in at JonBenet. One, that you looked in on her before you saw the ransom note.
    Ms. RAMSEY: Absolutely not. (NBC News-Interview with John and Patsy Ramsey)


    "Both of us race to Burke's room at the far end of the second floor and find him apparently still sleep. Best not to arouse him until we figure out what's happening here, I think. He's better off asleep for now. I step into the hall." (Death of Inocence, PG 11)

    Patsy Ramsey: "I started down the stairs, the staircase to the kitchen and the note was on the landing, on the stairs, on the bottom of the stairs (pointing at floor plan), and I.... there was some lighting on, but it wasn't bright lights.....and looked you know, read, started reading the letter. And after the first couple sentences realized, you know, what was happening and I ran back up these spiral stairs, okay and I came and pushed open her door to her room right here (pointing at a floor plan) and she's not in her bed and then I went over to these stairs (pointing at a floor plan) and yelled up for John, call to him and he came down and then I said, you know, she's been kidnaped, she's not in her room, there's a note, whatever, and ah (pause) it was a panicking at that point. Ah, I think I, I can't remember exactly what I did then, whether, I think I ran downstairs again, you know, what do we do, what do we do, and he said call 911, call the police. I ran upstairs and I think he, I think I, I can't remember if, I think I asked him to go run and check on Burke." (1998 Taped Interigation interview of Patsy Ramsey by Tom Haney)

    -OK. As you all know there is a heck of a lot more things I could post here, but I think you get the where I am going with this... Something is wrong with this picture. There are several different stories here. Why? Well, the only logical reason is that somebody isn't telling the truth. The Ramsey's claim they slept through the night....

    "At about midnight, Scott Gibbons, a neighbor, looked out his kitchen window toward the Ramseys' house and saw a light on in the kitchen area. Sometime later, Adam Fermeire, another neighbor, who was up watching TV, said he didn't notice anything strange through the window that faced the Ramseys' house.Diane Brumfitt, another neighbor, told Detective Barry Hartkopp on December 31 that on Christmas night she did not see a light on at the southeast corner of the Ramseys' house, though there had been a safety light in that spot for years. She remembered thinking that it was unusual. Melody Stanton, up the street at 738, told the police on January 3 that she was certain she had heard a child's scream at about 2:00 A.M. on the night of the murder. Her bedroom window, which looks toward the Ramsey house from across the street, had been partly open. When questioned by the police, Stanton said that there had been only one scream but it was horrifying. If it came from the child, she assumed the scream had awakened her parents." (Lawrence Schiller, Perfect Murder Perfect Town, PG 58)

    -The scream really threw me for a loop at first. Was it possible that she did scream? Was this woman looking for her five minutes of fame? Is it possible that the Ramsey's slept through a scream that the neighbors across the street heard? Lou Smit did a test to see if it was possible that Mrs. Stanton heard the scream and the parents didn't. (Keep in mind that JonBenet was probably in the basement when this scream happened and that there are ventilation pipes coming out of the basement that were facing the street, and that the Ramsey’s were three stories up on the opposite end of the house.) From what I understand Lou Smit's test proved that her scream could not have been heard by the Ramsey's;however, theirs lies about what happened that morning tell me otherwise.

    -So lets just say that they did hear it... That changes everything. They hear her scream wake up and run to her room. She isn't in her bed, so they both run to Burke's room. If Burke was asleep they probably didn't wake him up at that point in time; however, if he was awake they probably told him to stay in his room. They begin to search the house for JonBenet calling her name, this is when they find the ransom note. Patsy is hysterical and wants to call the police. However, after they have searched the entire house (When searching the house they found the broken window in the basement and assumed that whoever took their daughter had already made their escape). John then sits down and reads the note (being the calm and collective one) and remains calm and reads the note. Of course, the note says that if they police are called that JonBenet will be beheaded, so John persuades Patsy not to call the police. Patsy only becomes more and more hysterical as hours go by, and finally ends up calling 911 at around 5:52 a.m. against John's wishes. (This would explain the voice in the background of the 911 tape... They were all up and had been up for hours.)

    "With little traffic on the roads an hour before sunrise, Officer Rick French got to the house on University Hill within minutes. His mere arrival was the first of many mistakes that police would make in the comming hours. An unmarked car or undercover officers should have responded to the kidnapping call, not a black-and-white, but French had no idea of the warnings in the ransom note." (Steve Thomas, "JonBenet", PG 18-19)

    -Before French arrives John and Patsy have an argument. John is mad that she called the police, when the ransom note clearly says that their house is being watching and that if the police are called their daughter will be killed. Realizing that arguing is going to solve anything, John accepts the fact the fact that she has already called the cops and that there is nothing he can do. They both decide it would be best to just tell the police that they had just woken up rather than saying that they had heard her scream and found the ransom note hours earlier. They didn't think that the fact that they had known she was missing for hours and had done nothing would look very good on their part so they decided to leave that out when the police came. Like most lies, it doesn't take long for a little lie to turn into a big lie. Why not come forward with the truth? Why should they tell the truth? They still have no clue who killed their daughter so telling the police that they lied about not hearing her scream would not help the investigation, if anything it would only undermine everything that they had told the truth about and ruin their credibility. So if this is indeed what happened, the Ramsey’s will more than likely never admit it.

    -The argument between John and Patsy before Officer French arrived would also explain a lot of other things... According to police reports John and Patsy Ramsey sat in different areas of the house and barely spoke to one another. This is not something you typically see when a child is missing. But the more time that passed by the more worried both parents became. The ransom note said that that kidnappers would call between 8 and 10. After 10 o'clock came and went John became more and more irritated and Patsy became more and more hysterical, realizing that by calling the police she had probably ruined any chance they had of getting JonBenet back.

    John Ramsey finds JonBenet in the wine cellar:

    Detective Linda Arndt tells John and Fleet White to check the house over and make sure that nothing else is missing.

    John Ramsey: "As I was going through the basement, I opened the door and knew immediately that I'd found her because I saw a white blanket. Her eyes were closed, I feared the worse yet I'd found her and she was back in our safe protection again. And yet when I found her, even though there was this rush that I'd found her, I was fearful that she wasn't OK and just, I couldn't say anything, I screamed to attract attention and carried her upstairs. The detective was there that had helped us that morning, spent a minute with her and looked at me and said to me, she's dead. I think up to that point, I just kind of hoped we could bring her back that she was just asleep." (A&E Documentary, "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" by Micheal Tracy and David Mills)

    "We continue our search, and a few minutes later I'm at the door by the furnace. I open it and see JonBenet laying on the floor, with a white blanket around her. Black tape covers her mouth. That's my baby, laying there like that. Her hands are above her head, tied together with a shoestring-like cord. My heart leaps and rush runs through my body. I've found her! Thank God, I've found her ! I fall down over her body. Instantly I rip the tape off her mouth, begging her to talk to me. I pull the blanket off of her. Her delicate eyelids are closed and her skin is cool to the touch. I can't stand the sight of her hands tied and have to do something to get them loose. I start untying her, but I can't get the tight knot undone. Everything begins to blur and I'm slipping out of my mind and losing control. I grab JonBenet under her arms and pick her up. Stumbling out of the room, I run to the stairs, carrying my still child. From somewhere far inside of me, a scream erupts. That's all I can do. I scream like I'm in a nightmare but my body is still asleep. I'm deathly afraid.I run to the living room, where Linda Arndt is standing, and lay JonBenet on the floor in front of the Christmas tree. I still believe we can do something. We've got to get her awake and out of this unconscious state. Breathing. Moving. Talking. Anything. All I can do is comfort JonBenet. Hug her and kiss her. I've found my baby. Abruptly Officer Arndt is down beside me, checking JonBenet's vital signs. The policewoman straightens up, looks me in the eye, and tells me JonBenet is dead." (Ramsey's, Death of Innocence, PG 22)

    "John Ramsey emerged from the basement carrying the body of JonBenet, not cradled close but held away from him, his hands gripping her waist. The child's head was above his, facing him, her arms were raised high, stiffened by rigor mortis, and her lips were blue. The child was obviously dead. Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door. Instead, White ran back down into the little cellar room, picked up the black tape, and stared at it. By doing so, White unknowingly mishandled a critical piece of evidence.Linda Arndt felt the body for a neck pulse, noticed the order of decay, and chose to move the body into the living room herself. She lay the dead child on her back, on a rug before the Christmas tree." (Steve Thomas, JonBenet, PG 28)

    -John Ramsey was questioned in the way he was holding JonBenet... Some believe that the only reason he brought her upstairs was to disturb evidence to hide the face that he had killed her. I, however, disagree. John Ramsey had no choice but to carry JonBenet in the manner that he did. Her body was stiff as a board with her arms extended above her head making her longer than the halls were wide. The stairway coming upstairs to the first floor was very narrow, as was the hallway at the top of it. Once he got the top of the stairs he is forced to take a 90 degree turn into another narrow hallway.. He hand no choice but to carry her in the manor that he did.

    -The fact that John Ramsey is the one who found her doesn't mean that he found her "because he knew where she was." In fact if he did kill her why would he want to be the one to find her. Fleet White was a few steps behind him why not let him find her? Besides, if John Ramsey knew he was daughter was dead (because he had killed her) why was his first reaction to rip the tap off her mouth, and pick her up? Of course, this also works in reverse, and I realize this!

    What Happened to JonBenet?

    Like I stated earlier, I believe the killer was already in the house when the Ramsey's came home. However, I don't believe her killer was alone. I think that there was not one but two intruders. I'll explain why as I explain other things... Just stay with me here...

    Why was the ransom note so long? This confused me for a long time to until I read Lou Smit's theory about the intruder waiting in the house when the Ramsey's came home. My guess is that they were watching the house and saw the Ramsey's leave. They were unsure of how long that they would be gone so they entered the house through the basement shortly after the Ramsey’s left the house Christmas evening. If this is true, then that means that they were in the Ramsey home roughly 4 to 5 hours before the Ramsey's returned. That is a long time to wait on the Ramsey's to return. If anything I think the note being so long proves that they were waiting in the house, because if they broke in after the Ramsey's went to bed they would be in a hurry. Whoever wrote the note was in no hurry and was not fearful of being caught in the process. I believe the reasoning behind the note being so long may be as simple as boredom. Whoever did this was entertained by it. He even used lines from movies... It doesn't have the tone of a parent who just killed their child, it was to well thought out.

    When the Ramsey's return home they have no idea that there are two men hiding in the house waiting for them to go to sleep. They put JonBenet and Burke to bed before turning in for the night. The intruders wait quietly for the house to get quiet...

    What about JonBenet blanket? I have heard that she was not sleeping with her blanket that night and that it was in the dryer. (Of course, I have heard that she was sleeping with it to... )Well, as I have already explained, I think JonBenet got hot in her turtle neck and changed shirts. When she starts to go back to bed she realizes that she doesn't have her blanket and remembers that her mother washed it so she goes to the dryer outside of her room and looks for it. When she opens the dryer she finds it and goes back to get in her bed. She didn't ask for it before she went to bed because she was asleep when her parents brought her home.

    There is no way of knowing when she was grabbed out of her room. All we know is that the scream was heard around 2 in the morning. I believe that the intruders walked up behind her while she was sleeping and stunned her on the side of her face with a stun gun. One intruder put tape on her mouth stood by the door keeping a look out. The other intruder starts to take the blanket in her arms away from her but she refuses to let go, so rather than fighting her over he lets her take it.

    The autopsy report revealed that JonBenet had garland caught on the underside of her hair. This tells me that she was carried upside-down (over one of the intruders shoulders) down the spiral stair case. If she was carried the other way it would have been harder for the intruder to watch his footing going down the stairs. Carrying her over his shoulder also prevented JonBenet from slapping at him. Whoever was carrying JonBenet was in front, and the second intruder was behind lighting the way with the flash light and holding the stun gun just in case they needed to use it again. I believe that on the way down the basement JonBenet began to kick her legs and wiggle. In response to this she is stunned again. This time on the back.

    Once they get her down to the basement and close the door they decide it to tie her hands to keep her from fighting them so much. They threaten her as they lay her down on the ground telling her not to move or make any noise. Even though her hands are tied they are tied in front of her.

    The two men turn toward the window to decide how they are going to get her out. In order to get her up through the grate one of them is going to have to up first while the other hands her. They spot a suitcase and decide that it would be easier to get up to the window if they stood on top of it. While they are discussing their plan JonBenent raises her hands to her mouth, pulls off the tape and screams for all she is worth. Both men are startled and race towards her to silence her. They know that her scream was loud enough to wake up the parents, so they start to panic. The first intruder is the first one to suggest an alternative plan. He tells the other intruder that they have to kill her, leave her in the basement and flee because it will take to long to get her up through the grate especially with her fighting them. The other intruder is horrified by this and refuses to take part in killing her. He was in on the kidnapping for the the money and wants no part in killing her.

    When he leaves the remaining intruder is now stuck. There is no way that he can get JonBenet through the grate alone so he has no choice but to kill her and leave her. As he looks around for something to kill her with, but his thoughts are interrupted by the sound of people moving around and screaming upstairs. The Ramsey's have heard their daughter scream and are looking for her. He no longer has time to kill her and flee, he must hide. He picks up JonBenet who drops her blanket, when he turns around to grab the blanket a night gown falls out of the blanket so he grabs it to (this would only work if the nightgown was also in the dryer with the blanket... would like to know if that is true.. ) and runs through the basement in search of a place to hide. He sees the closed door at the end of the hallway and decides that that it would be a good hiding spot so he opens the door and enters closing the door behind him. He holds JonBenet tightly to ensure that she doesn't scream again. He listens closely to the movements upstairs and determines that they are searching the house and that it is only a matter of time before either search the basement or call the police. He is a nervous wreck. To ease his frustrations he sexually assaults JonBenet figuring that if he is going to get caught it might as well be worth it. (Can't be sure when he assaulted her but some time during this period he did)

    He hears someone (one if not both Ramsey's) opening the basement door and coming down the stairs and walking around. The Ramsey's see the broken window and the suitcase and figure that the kidnapper has already fled the house and head back upstairs.... After they go back upstairs there isn't as much movement around the house. So the killer opens the door to the room and searches for something to kill JonBenet with. He spots the paint brushes and decides to make a garrote. He knows that he has to kill her quietly and quickly. He is smart enough not to do anything to messy. He starts to put the rope around her neck but she fights him clinging to the rope and scratching at him, prevent him from easily strangling her. Once he realizes that this isn't going to work, he turns her over face down making sure that her hands are above her head so that she cannot fight him. Her hands are tied in front of her so when her hands are extended over her head she cannot fight him. He strangles her until her body goes limp. Once he is certain that she is dead he turns her over and drags her further back into the room where he puts the blanket on top of her and kicks the night gown to the side. He starts to leave but he wants to be sure that she is dead so he hits her over the head as hard as he can with his flash light (or golf club or bat ... nobody really knows what she was hit with). He listens carefully and hears nothing upstairs, so he closes the door the room and makes a run for the basement window and escapes into the night.


    I realize that I have left out a lot, but quite frankly I'm tired of typing. More to come later.... Happy posting all !!!
     
  2. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Wow

    You have put much time, effort and energy into your post and it is admirable. For many, and for myself (I can only speak definitively for myself), most of the information you are working from is either from Lou Smit, Michael Tracey and most important of all DOI and the Ramseys themselves.

    You may in fact, have more to come, but if you work primarily from those materials and in fact, already have accepted the stun gun as a fact, the Ramsey statements as true, and Lou Smit as a truly reliable source for much of the information, the theories are flawed already.

    It is my belief (and have been saying so for almost 10 years) that nobody was waiting in the house for them that night. Too risky; as I have said many times before, with the timing of the murder, how would ANYONE know for sure that everyone would be fast asleep? Most families, after going to bed might NOT be asleep. Burke may very well have still been up playing with his gifts, or any number of things (reading, etc.). The Ramseys might have been awake preparing for the next day, watching TV, and yes, even being "intimate".

    While your efforts are appreciated and admirable, if you are going to reference DOI, the Ramseys and Michael Tracey you are off to a poor start to a theory, as you may be accepting their words as ultimately true. The stun gun has never been proven and in fact the authorities have said it was NOT a stun gun.

    However, your post is intriguing and well written, but with all due respect, your theory is very flawed.
     
  3. Thank you for your honesty Barbara. It is OK that we do not see eye to eye. I knew when I posted this that there were not going to be many who agreed with anything I had to say, if anything I knew I would be criticized, and that is OK. However, I didn't just pull information from the Ramseys', Lou Smith, or Micheal Tracy. I also pulled information from Steve Thomas, Lawrence Schiller, interrogation tapes and other news programs unrelated to any of the people you have mentioned. If anything I used the Ramseys' book to reflect the fact that their story has not always been consistent. I do not agree with everything Lou Smit has to say. Like you said, there very well have not been anybody waiting inside that house when they returned that night... and the Ramseys' could have possibly been up all night. However, Lou has been on the case for years and has not gained anything but criticism. Though some of his ideas may or may not be on track with the truth, the fact that he is seeking the truth despite what others have said about him is admirable, and I think his views should be taken into account. I don't particularly like Steve Thomas, but I bought and read his book, because it is dangerous to stay one side of the fence. And even though I don't agree with very many things that Steve Thomas had to say in his book, I do believe that he had some good points. What I have learned over the past few years is that neither extreme fits perfectly in this case. The Ramseys' killing her in cold blood and covering it up doesn't completely fit, and the Ramsey's sleeping through the night and waking up to ransom note doesn't quite fit either. I believe that the truth is somewhere in between. The point of me posting this was not for me to be right and everyone else to be wrong. I am very openminded... I know that there are huge holes in my theory; however, if one theory fit perfectly, we wouldn't still be talking about the case because it would have been solved years ago. I mainly wanted to provoke thought and get some feedback, regaurdless of how negative it may be.
     
  4. EasyWriter

    EasyWriter FFJ Senior Member

    Question: "SeekingJustice", where did you get the idea that “somebody said†is
    evidence? The perpetrator has to be a Ramsey, or an intruder.
    Right? Second question? What do you call evidence of an intruder?
    Third question? Will you answer my specific questions about
    specific items of alleged evidence of an alleged intruder?
     
  5. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    I apologize if I gave the impression that you were all right and everyone else is wrong. That was not at all my intention.

    "However, Lou has been on the case for years and has not gained anything but criticism. "

    This is true; however, I feel that in the "beginning" if you will, the criticism was truly constructive criticism, with others trying to show him the errors in some of his comments and on the record remarks about the innocence of the Ramseys in such a short time and under what I consider "odd" circumstances, with religion playing a part.

    "Though some of his ideas may or may not be on track with the truth, .."

    That is a very scary statement of fact. If one is to be admired, not to mention that Lou was considered the last word on the case for many, a "seasoned" detective spoke out of turn and out of reality in some instances when it regarded the Ramseys. Hence, the criticism and the later harsher criticism.


    Now in all fairness, I was never of the belief that Lou is so off track in the case because of greed/corruption/payoff or the like. I truly believe that he is no longer objective for whatever personal reason and I would expect that a professional would recognize that and withdraw from the case. I would have great respect for his "opinion" in this case had he chosen the ethical approach as an official "investigator". He chose to go to extremes defending the Ramseys and it was obvious to everyone that he was extremely biased. Even he had to backpedal regarding the stun gun.

    As for your other thoughts, you are correct. No one theory completes the puzzle or makes great sense in every aspect. I personally feel that some are closer than others but all have holes, which is, in my opinion, the result of the well known poor initial crime scene handling and disastrous investigation. I am of the opinion that it probably is not as convoluted as many theorists suggest, but shoddy investigative work is the only reason one or more of the Ramseys are not in prison today.

    I tend to think in a much "simpler" fashion than some of the really great, technical minds on this and other forums. :)
     
  6. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    I'm with you, Barbara. the 'KISS' (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle is the royal road to the truth in the vast majority of criminal cases, and the Ramsey case is no exception.
     
  7. Elle

    Elle Member

    I will admit if there was a Mental Institution quite close to the Ramsey home, I could see an escaped patient might do something crazy like lift up a heavy grate and slither in through the basement window, or maybe if he was a contortionist, kick the window and break it. He might even use his head (?). He probably enjoyed listening to the tinkle of the glass as it fell. It was Christmas night!

    Yes, a mental patient would have had fun writing the ransom note. Fantasizing about a Foreign Faction, the poor soul. Unfortunately, there is no Mental Institution in this area, so I'm not giving this one another single thought.
     
  8. Elle_1 "I will admit if there was a Mental Institution quite close to the Ramsey home, I could see an escaped patient might do something crazy like lift up a heavy grate and slither in through the basement window, or maybe if he was a contortionist, kick the window and break it. He might even use his head (?). He probably enjoyed listening to the tinkle of the glass as it fell. It was Christmas night! Yes, a mental patient would have had fun writing the ransom note. Fantasizing about a Foreign Faction, the poor soul. Unfortunately, there is no Mental Institution in this area, so I'm not giving this one another single thought."

    True, it would be rare to say the least. But also keep in mind that something very similar happened another young girl in Boulder about 6 or so months after JonBenet's death. A man was hiding in the house when the mother and daughter returned home. (The alarm was not set when the mother and child left to go to the movies, and when they returned and turned in for the night the mother set the alarm... therefore the person would have had to have been inside before the alarm was set.) Mother woke up and heard whispering in the middle of the night, when she got up to check on her daughter. When she reached her daughters door, a man dressed in all black pushed her aside and jumped out a two story window. There were black fibers found on JonBenet's blanket and on her clothes.

    This child was quite a bit older than JonBenet ( I believe she was 12 ), but she and JonBenet both danced at the same dance studio. News sources refured to the child as Amy, but I seriously doubt that that was her real name. Police wanted to protect the child's identity. Amy was sexually assulted in her bedroom on her bed with her mother sleeping right across the hall.... Also keep in mind other events that have happened in recent years... Elizibeth Smart, Jessica Lunsford, Danielle Van Dam... I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Yes, it is VERY rare, but history has proven that it does happen. And if there was no intruder how do you explain the fact that the DNA in her panties and under fingernails does not match anyone that the police questioned or took samples from... There was also a pubic hair on her blanket... also not a match to the Ramseys'. Shoe prints found next to her body with treds that did not match any shoes that the Ramseys' (And no, they were not Burke's prints were to large to be his)...
     
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    To be very truthful with you, SK, I replied to your post yesterday with tongue in cheek. I wasn't being serious at all, because I can't get serious about this intruder in the Ramsey home. I apologize!

    When so much evidence relates to the Ramseys themselves, I just cannot spend time discussing an intruder.

    Yes I did read all about the other young girl who attended the same dance class, with the mother frightening the intruder away. I'm wondering why the police haven't caught this fellow yet (?). At least this intruder was seen.
     
  10. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member


    There was NO intruder. The DNA in her panties and under her nails has not been proven to be a match, despite what one may read elsewhere. The DNA was so degraded that the experts agree that this is NOT a DNA case. While it doesn't hurt to run it through CODIS, the authorities know that there will likely never be a match. I also believe, if memory serves me correctly, the "pubic" hair found on the blanket turned out to be an underarm hair from Patsy Ramsey. The shoe prints were one of many and it has been told that the HiTec prints were not only old, but likely did belong to Burke. Please show us where any authority has stated that the prints were too large to be Burke's. Doesn't mean that Burke murdered her, it just means that the prints (and there were a few assorted prints) have all been identified except for those and those too, were quite old. Another red herring

    There was no intruder. If it wasn't a "Ramsey", it was someone known to the Ramseys and the Ramseys know who it was
     
  11. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    SeekingJustice - I started reading your post with good will and an open mind. I got as far as references to DOI and Lou Smit, and I turned completely off. Lou Smit is part of Team Ramsey, regardless of claims to contrary. DOI is a work of fiction, written by the Ramseys. If you are using either of them to prove your case here, it won't fly.

    I don't mean to be rude, but the posters on this forum have hashed and rehashed and re-rehashed the Ramsey case over the past nearly 10 years. There isn't anything new that you or anyone else is going to come up with that will change the original evidence. The evidence is what it is, and no amount of RST spin will change it. And, after 9+ years, I doubt very much there is anyone on the forums who doesn't know where we here stand on the issues, and you certainly are not someone new. So, one wonders who you really are and why you're really here.

    I invite you to take EasyWriter's post to heart. I can promise you he will probably have more patience with you than most of us will.
     
  12. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    I thought

    weren't the fibers navy colored? If you want to be taken seriously don't change the evidence to fit your theory. :nono:
     
  13. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    Watching You

    Watching You wrote:

    "And, after 9+ years, I doubt very much there is anyone on the forums who doesn't know where we here stand on the issues, and you certainly are not someone new. So, one wonders who you really are and why you're really here."

    As usual, you are so succinct, Watching You.

    You express my views exactly. All the while I was thinking, "This new poster is someone either on or very close to the RST." No "newbie;" that's for sure. And, certainly nothing new or different to add. I write this in all due respect. Amen.

    GL
    :leaf:
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, just to be polite, and because I'm one of the biggest mouths on the forum...yeah, I may be bombastic but I'm not oblivious...I'll throw out some stuff here.

    Seeking Justice, you took a lot of time to write your post, so out of respect for that, whatever your motives, I'll bite. Lord knows I've written enough to fill several books on this case--and I'm not saying any of it is worthy of a book, either, just my opinion.

    But I'm going to have to do it in small segments because you have a lot of information in your post and I only have so much time right now. Sorry.

    First, pictures were taken at the White's home that night. JonBenet was wearing her white waffle shirt with the star on it. That's a fact. That's also the shirt she was found in. That's a fact. Since Patsy first told the police officer JonBenet was wearing a red turtleneck, there was some confusion about that, but we can speculate until the second coming and we'll never know for sure why Patsy said that.

    Also, just why do you think it's safe to assume this: "The turtle neck was found wadded up by the bathroom sink. This is not something a parent or an adult would do." Patsy's own sweater can be seen lying across the bottom of JonBenet's bed, tossed there carelessly. JonBenet's pink pajama top which she wore on Christmas Eve to bed can be seen lying at the top of the bed. Patsy said she kept that under her pillow, which also can be seen lying across the bottom of the bed. JonBenet's soiled pants and underwear, left where they dropped, were found lying on the floor, along with hair ties all over the floor. I don't think there is any dispute that Patsy wasn't much of a housekeeper, leaving that to one part-time maid for 4 active people. I have no problem seeing Patsy wadding up a red shirt and leaving it on a counter. But even if your assumption were correct, why couldn't JonBenet have wadded it up before they went to the White's? Patsy herself said that was what she and JonBenet argued about before they went: Patsy wanted JonBenet to wear the turtleneck to match the one Patsy was wearing, but JonBenet wanted to wear the white "star" top which was bought with the black velvet jeans.

    You might ask, as I have, what happened to the black velvet jeans JonBenet had worn to the White's that night. And did they ever find the correct sized Wednesday Bloomies panties that went with the complete set belonging to JonBenet? The ones they found on her, a size 12 from a brand new opened pack found in JonBenet's bathroom, are a point of serious consideration, IMO. I've never seen anyone answer either of these questions to a certainty yet. Maybe LE found them and took them in. Maybe they're in a picture somewhere. But I haven't seen it.

    Sticking with the facts is the best way to get close to the truth here. Patsy and John have changed their stories so many times even they admit don't know the truth anymore...if you'll notice my tag at the end of this post. I find it helpful to rule in statements that can be supported by corroborating evidence.
     
  15. LurkerXIV

    LurkerXIV Moderator

    John is such a drama queen!

    "We continue our search, and a few minutes later I'm at the door by the furnace. I open it and see JonBenet laying on the floor, with a white blanket around her. Black tape covers her mouth. That's my baby, laying there like that. Her hands are above her head, tied together with a shoestring-like cord. My heart leaps and rush runs through my body. I've found her! Thank God, I've found her ! I fall down over her body. Instantly I rip the tape off her mouth, begging her to talk to me. I pull the blanket off of her. Her delicate eyelids are closed and her skin is cool to the touch. I can't stand the sight of her hands tied and have to do something to get them loose. I start untying her, but I can't get the tight knot undone. Everything begins to blur and I'm slipping out of my mind and losing control. I grab JonBenet under her arms and pick her up. Stumbling out of the room, I run to the stairs, carrying my still child. From somewhere far inside of me, a scream erupts. That's all I can do. I scream like I'm in a nightmare but my body is still asleep. I'm deathly afraid.I run to the living room, where Linda Arndt is standing, and lay JonBenet on the floor in front of the Christmas tree. I still believe we can do something. We've got to get her awake and out of this unconscious state. Breathing. Moving. Talking. Anything. All I can do is comfort JonBenet. Hug her and kiss her. I've found my baby. Abruptly Officer Arndt is down beside me, checking JonBenet's vital signs. The policewoman straightens up, looks me in the eye, and tells me JonBenet is dead." (Ramsey's, Death of Innocence, PG 22

    Typical bullsmit from the book "Do I Lie?"

    John says:" We've got to get her awake and out of this unconscious state."

    The truth: JonBenet's body was rigid and in a state of rigor mortis. The odor of death was about her. No sentient person would think this child was still alive.
     
  16. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    When the JBR case first "broke," it was just another high visibility celebrity thing to me. I may have picked-up a sentence or two about the case when it was on local news - not often. My interest picked-up considerably when I found out that John Ramsey worked for a guy at LM who had previously worked for me. My interest went off-the-scales, of course, when I found out that an FBI Agent relative of my wife had an FBI friend involved in the case in Boulder. Every time I went to NC I got more "inside info" on the strange goings-on in Boulder, and the frustrations of the FBI there.

    The first JBR book that I read was Perfect Murder Perfect Town – much of what was published in this book squared with what I was being told about the case, right up to how the FBI was treated by Hunter, Lou Smit, and the rest of the DA’s Office. I read Steve Thomas’ book at the suggestion of my wife’s relative – his comment, “what Thomas says about the FBI in his book is right on.†And I finally read the Death of Innocence to see what the Ramseys had to say.

    Ever since I first began posting on the JW Forum, and then at the CyberSlueths Forum, and finally here at FFJ, I have continually said I do not know who killed JBR. And while I find many of the Ramsey actions strange, I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe a jury would have enough solid evidence to convict a Ramsey or an “intruder.†Incidentally, there is no doubt in my mind that, whoever killed JBR that night, it was not an intruder.

    Just to mention a couple of things I found strange is 1) John Ramsey did not get in touch with LM security as soon as he found the note – that would have been protocol for any EMPLOYEE, not just executive, at the defense contractor I worked for. The note was either a hoax or a terrorist threat to a defense contractor executive. This decision was for LM Security and the FBI to determine, not Ramsey or the Boulder PD. Obviously, everyone involved decided the note was not from terrorist - thus it was bogus. 2) I (and my FBI "source") also wondered why, instead of getting close with the FBI (as I would have), he was described as avoiding the FBI at his house. Why did the Ramseys lawyer-up even before the body was found and hire a PR firm the next day? These things do not help you look innocent. There are a lot of other little things that happened before and shortly after JBR’s body was found that made me scratch my head at the actions of the Ramseys and the DA’s Office, some of which I and my FBI "source" both thought might have been border-line obstruction of justice. He and I both felt that the Clinton Justice Dept just wasn't up to the task.

    Whatever… my problem now is information overload. Although I will read and ponder new stuff posted about the case, wading through this stuff now for me is like looking to find some reality on a “reality show.†I have read SeekingJustice’s posts and I can say in all honesty, I don’t see anything new – And I still don’t know who killed JBR…

    I have resigned myself to the sad truth that there will be no justice for JBR here on earth. However, I believe there is a God and he will punish whoever killed JBR. And His punishment will be much more severe than anything we here on earth could conjure up.
     
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    No kidding, that would change everything. But you are simply imagining WHAT IF this or that happened. You have no evidence to support the speculation that you then take to even more unsupported guessing.

    Don't get me wrong, we all speculate, and we've gone on many a wild goose chase in every direction. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we understand we can speculate aliens did it, but without solid evidence to at least lead us on our little flights of fantasy, one is as fictional as another.

    I think it must be said here, however, that Mrs. Stanton retracted her story about hearing a scream. She allegedly then said maybe she had more of a psychic "hearing" of the scream. Sorry, that not only won't hold up in court, it completely discredits her as worthy of any further use to finding out the truth. Like many in this case, she's only muddied the water. The autopsy proved JonBenet was murdered some time on the night of the 25th/26th. Pineapple was found in her upper intestines, meaning she had to eat it some 1 to 3 hours before death, approximately; rigor was set, meaning probably around 10 hours or more had passed since her death; and she was at the well-attended White party up to around 7 or 8 that evening. Nothing Stanton said pinpoints the timeline any closer or means anything, sadly, because she either lied or she's too confused to know the truth. She could have been awakened by a party-related scream from down the street, a dream, or a backfiring car, or she could be mentally ill or have just made it up entirely to get attention. We'll never know, will we?

    But you go further, making up quite a story with nothing I can see in the way of actual evidence, claiming this COULD BE why the Ramseys lied repeatedly and for over 9 years now:

    And you base all this on nothing more than a woman's retracted statement of a scream, which may or may not have happened and may or may not have anything to do with the murder, and what you can imagine might make John and Patsy lie to LE when the very life of their child could have depended on their telling the truth, if they truly did not know where she was. Not in a million years, IMO.

    Think about it: your child is gone, a ransom note threatening to behead her is left, and when you do call LE, you're more concerned with looking bad because you hesitated to call for help than in helping LE find your child by telling them actually how long she's been gone? I don't think any adult parent, not to mention two with degrees and plenty of success in life indicating they were operating in some zone of normalcy, would need to be told that it would be CRITICAL for LE to know as closely as possible WHEN JonBenet was kidnapped. So it's hard to believe in a few minutes of panic they hatched some scheme of lying to LE to hide that they hestitated to call out of fear for their child.

    But you seem to have thrown in that AFTER they found the body, some 7 hours later, THEN they decided to keep lying for credibilty. You've put the cart before the horse entirely, because they first would have to have lied when they STILL had hope of getting JonBenet back with LE's help. Again, why would they think saving face more important than getting their child back from kidnappers? That just doesn't make sense.

    You have also missed the obvious hole in all of this: if the Rams were awakened by JonBenet's scream and then searched the house for her, where were these killers while they were doing that? Hiding in the cellar room, just lucky the Rams didn't look in there? Because they sure didn't throw her body down and run, did they? If she were alive and screamed, she had yet to be strangled and head bashed. So she screams, and while the Rams are frantically running all over the house looking for her, the killers strangle her, bash her head in, wipe her genital area down, pull her panties and pants back up after using the paintbrush to molest her vaginally, lay her out in the cellar room neatly on her blanket and wrap it over her body. Then they even carefully latch the door to the cellar room at the top after closing it. How fortunate for them the Ramsey's home search didn't involve much of a search. Gave the killers time to get out without so much as alerting those looking for them while they climbed back out the window, two of them, quiet as mice, placing the grate back on the window well...neat freaks that they are...never thinking, to heck with Martha Stewart, we better get the hell out of dodge before we end up on death row!

    And this is just for starters. I didn't even bring up that the molestation with the paintbrush, from the physcial evidence we know of, probably took place in the cellar by the paint tray, after which the paintbrush was broken and then tied onto the garrote. Did they do that after she screamed? Or did they also take the time to then break the paintbrush and tie the handle on for some reason after they strangled her, while the Rams were upstairs possibly/probably calling LE?

    Sorry, you're going to have to account for the actual evidence in any theory to have it considered seriously. I've gone to a lot of effort here to demonstrate that we at FFJ aren't just looking for reasons to condemn the Ramseys, some people's thinking to the contrary. We actually use the evidence to argue and debate this case. We've spent many years learning and applying what we know to come up with feasible theories. We may disagree on the interpretation of some evidence, and we may have many theories as well; undoubtedly, we can't all be right, so at least some of us have to be wrong, but we look to the evidence in our search for the truth. And the reason many of us find John and Patsy Ramsey the prime suspects has nothing to do with what we think of them personally. It's ALL about the evidence.

    And let me add that I have had various theories through the years, and to this day, I can argue different scenarios that may or may not be possible. It's why we're all still here, isn't it? So don't take my analysis of yours personally. Nobody knows the truth about that night but the killer(s), and he/she/they are not telling.
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I don't think we can possibly state as fact that how John carried JonBenet is evidence of anything. I agree that he must have known she was dead by how stiff she was, how her lips were blue, and how she smelled of death. But for argument's sake, I also agree that under these circumstances, an innocent parent might clearly be beyond reason upon finding his murdered child like this. Any way you want to argue this is nothing more than an argument because it cuts both ways.

    As you said, it is also equally impossible to say with certainty John "found her" because he knew she was there, or because he simply came upon her at that time. If he did in fact help stage her body and laid her in the cellar, it's reasonable to assume that he expected her body to be found quickly by LE. Who wouldn't? It was sheer bad luck that LE or even Fleet White didn't find her earlier. An officer tried to get into the room, but the latch over the door meant no kidnappers were hiding in there, and when it simply stuck, he assumed that meant nobody could be in there, as well. White simply didn't see the body because the light switch was in an odd place he couldn't find and the room was so dark and still, he just assumed it was empty, certainly no child was in there hiding. I doubt he'd even really considered at that point that JonBenet might be dead.

    So why would John "find her" if he staged the body for LE? That's easy and well discussed: LE didn't find her, did they? Even John and Patsy would know that a body begins decomposing, smelling, rigor setting in, not too long after death. Remember the "proper burial" in the ransom note? If the Rams/one or both wrote that note, that was on their minds, wasn't it? And remember, the only people in the home by 1 pm looking for any body was...no one. They were waiting on the phone call from the kidnappers--which, if the Rams KNEW it wasn't coming, meant they could be sitting there all day and night...and into the next day...and night.... John's "Big Kids" were on their way, and it had to have crossed John's mind, if he knew the truth, that they might take it upon themselves to look around, might in fact find the body. If the Ramseys staged the body in the basement and wrote the ransom note, it was so they could get away from the home to their lawyers and away from LE, to get the body quickly found and out of there to a "proper burial," and to do so before they had a chance to say the wrong thing or crack up and give themselves away. If Patsy and John had to sit there and contemplate WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO NOW, thinking about just how long it might be before anyone FOUND the body now...maybe not until it started really smelling bad, began turning black...when maybe JAR or Melinda might find it and have to live with that for the rest of their lives...how much pressure was on them by 1 pm? Sure, I believe John would have thanked god and ran straight to the basement when he saw the perfect chance handed to him by the complete incompetence of Linda Arndt.

    On the other hand, if he is innocent, sure he could have just "started in the basement" as he said. There's nothing in and of itself in either of these scenarios that is actual evidence of guilt or innocence. Both are pure speculation, because the only person who knows if John is lying is John...and/or Patsy...and/or the killer. To claim otherwise is just speculation. John is a suspect, and that's a fact, so what he says cannot be taken at face value without corroborating evidence. Nobody can corroborate what someone is thinking. Even Keenan will not clear the Ramseys, after all she has said about an intruder being more likely.
     
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I agree, Shadow, and I thank you for saying this because the RST love to slam Thomas, calling him a liar. (Jams recently said his book had been discredited, which is A COMPLETE LIE. Neither did the SETTLED LAWSUIT prove that, either, but don't try to explain the law to swampsters, it's like trying to teach a pig to sing.) I have never seen one piece of information that disputes exactly what Thomas said about all the crap that went on because Alex Hunter gave the case away to the prime suspects from day one. I don't know of any other DA in the country who has so blatantly obstructed justice in a murder case, ever. Hunter not only tanked this case, he didn't even try to hide it. The sources for this are innumerable, indisputable, and Hunter admited as much himself, in so many words, on national TV. No prosecutor who ever expects to try a case EVER goes on TV defending the prime suspects before the case is even tried. Just HOW HAPPY would doing so make any defendant's lawyer? I'll never get over what Hunter did to this case if I live to be 100. He's the worst lawyer I've ever seen and his former DA's Office will either spend decades trying to recover from his corruption or it will continue with his legacy:



    The Republic of Boulder


    The Elite Destination


    Killers welcome! Deals on sale now!

    All you need is CASH
     
  20. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    Shadow/Koldkase

    That was a wonderful post, Shadow. Your thoughts, ref. this case, were articulated so coherently, as per usual. It was a most interesting read. Thank you, friend. Consider me one of your greatest fans.

    Koldkase, you are a treasure. Where do you get the energy to dig so deeply into every little nuance of this case? I always read your posts with great interest. Keep on trucking, gal.

    GL
    :leaf:
     
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