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  1. #37

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    People don't just 'snap' out of the blue. Even if they have never shown violent behavior before, this doesn't mean too much. People often put their best foot forward in public and hide their darker side. And stressful events can be the trigger which unleashes what has been brewing in them.
    Patsy Ramsey for example has always been presented as a very indulgent and patient parent of whom her supporters could not imagine to have snapped just because JB had wet the bed just one more time.
    But there is an interesting passage in Thomas' book (p. 326/327) where Patsy becomes aggressive during the interview with Tom Haney (bold type mine):

    Haney said they were not ready to show her evidence and challenged her further. "Pal, you don't want to go there, " she warned, adding that she was a good Christian woman who did not lie. She pushed back against the couch and exhaled in disgust. "Criminy", she explained.
    Haney continued to be inhospitable and probed about whether the death could have been an accident resulting from bed-wetting. Patsy held up a hand, like a stop sign. "You're going down the wrong path, buddy!"
    Later she said, "If John Ramsey were involved, honey, we wouldn't be sitting here. I'd have knocked his block off. Read my lips! This was not done by a family member. Didn't happen. Period. End of statement."
    Still Haney came on, polite but insistent, inquiring about any family secrets, and she tired of him. "Cut to the chase", she barked.
    "Oh, no," Haney responded smoothly, "That would spoil the ride."
    "Then spoil my ride", Patsy said, riveting him. She didn't give an inch.
    It was a spellbinding exchange. Tom Haney, with his no-nonsense style and three days in which to ask his questions, had found something I felt had to be there somewhere not too far below that polished beauty queen surface. Patsy Ramsey had, for a few minutes, lifted her mask. Beneath it, I saw cold rage.


    Burke btw when interviewed said that JonBenet's bedwetting was a big problem. And to someone like Patsy who wanted a perfect little doll as a child, JonBenet's silent protest through bedwetting was probably a continuing insult to her mother's narcissistic personality.

    Could you native speakers help me with this: Patsy told Haney "Pal, you don't want to go there". Could this be interpreted as being a threat?
    Last edited by rashomon; May 14, 2006, 12:59 pm at Sun May 14 12:59:59 UTC 2006.

  2. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    Could you native speakers help me with this: Patsy told Haney "Pal, you don't want to go there". Could this be interpreted as being a threat?
    It is definitely a threat.

    The threat is further enforced by Patsy "naming" Haney with the substitute word "Pal" at the beginning of her threat. Anytime someone uses a person's name at the start of a statement, it is to get their attention and to exhibit power. A person's name is powerful. It is a direct link to their identity.

    In addition, Patsy exhibits sarcasm with her anger by the choice of her euphemistic name for Haney. She calls him "Pal" but the tone of her voice and the words following are not friendly. This inverted meaning of the word "pal" adds punch to the words of the threat.

  3. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    It is definitely a threat.

    The threat is further enforced by Patsy "naming" Haney with the substitute word "Pal" at the beginning of her threat. Anytime someone uses a person's name at the start of a statement, it is to get their attention and to exhibit power. A person's name is powerful. It is a direct link to their identity.

    In addition, Patsy exhibits sarcasm with her anger by the choice of her euphemistic name for Haney. She calls him "Pal" but the tone of her voice and the words following are not friendly. This inverted meaning of the word "pal" adds punch to the words of the threat.
    I would say that it could be interpreted in two ways. I might say this to someone as a threat - meaning that I would not be responsible for my actions if they persisted down that line. However, I might also say something like this if it was a touchy subject with me and would be liable to upset me by talking about it.

    I may not be explaining this well.

    Say for example I had a confrontation with Bill X which had upset me a lot. Then say later, someone asked me "Hey have you seen Bill X recently?". Well I might feel myself getting hot under the colar and say "Hey Pal - don't go there!" - meaning that this was not a topic I wanted to discuss.

    As I said above, I might ALSO use it as a warning to back off and in that respect it would be aggressive.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  4. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    I would say that it could be interpreted in two ways. I might say this to someone as a threat - meaning that I would not be responsible for my actions if they persisted down that line. However, I might also say something like this if it was a touchy subject with me and would be liable to upset me by talking about it.

    I may not be explaining this well.

    Say for example I had a confrontation with Bill X which had upset me a lot. Then say later, someone asked me "Hey have you seen Bill X recently?". Well I might feel myself getting hot under the colar and say "Hey Pal - don't go there!" - meaning that this was not a topic I wanted to discuss.

    As I said above, I might ALSO use it as a warning to back off and in that respect it would be aggressive.
    Yeah, I get what you're saying, Jayelles.

    I interpreted it to mean that if Hayes kept "going there," Patsy was going to get up and walk out of the interview.

    She did say that she would leave once when the detective was "going there" with questions about the family being involved.

    So it was a threat to leave. And the "pal" certainly was an attempt to intimidate the detective. It was disrespectful, only something someone would say to a subordinate. You don't call a person whom you respect but don't know well "pal" in a situation like this. It's inappropriate. It is sarcastic. And it worked. He didn't go there, did he? Not to any serious degree of questioning, IMO. Oh, the times I want to shout "Follow up and ask her this, or that!" when reading those transcripts. But again and again and again, they let the most important questions evaporate, over and over. Or else, they INTERRUPT the Ramseys when they're actually TRYING to ANSWER the important questions! They lead them! I sometimes wonder if they were simply making sure the questions DIDN'T get answered.

    But Patsy's inappropriate response: That's what I think we all see in the pageant stuff: lots of inappropriate behavior. Boundaries are thrown to the wind. The excuse of "it's little girls playing dress up" seems to suffice for the Ramseys to justify the fact that their little girl's playing dress up ended in her molestation and death.

    It's not just little girls playing dressup when they're intensely trained, photographed, costumed, hairdressed and made-up by professionals, and then paraded around in the public at great expense to the parents, and then given awards for it.

    Incest, child abuse...it's all about crossing boundaries and inappropriate behavior. JonBenet was old enough to be learning about those boundaries and what was inappropriate behavior at school. They teach them young now to "tell someone." Patsy had to know about JonBenet's prior vaginal injuries, IMO, no matter how she got it or who did it to her. JonBenet was bound to have blood in her panties, wasn't she?

    So I wonder about those three phone calls to Dr. Beuf's office one day earlier that month. Had Patsy found blood in JonBenet's panties? We'll never know, probably, but I don't think what happened that fateful night came on in a few minutes. I think it was long in the making...and whoever was molesting JonBenet, the Rams didn't want anyone to know about it. Ever. Especially LE. JMO

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

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    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    It is definitely a threat.

    The threat is further enforced by Patsy "naming" Haney with the substitute word "Pal" at the beginning of her threat. Anytime someone uses a person's name at the start of a statement, it is to get their attention and to exhibit power. A person's name is powerful. It is a direct link to their identity.

    In addition, Patsy exhibits sarcasm with her anger by the choice of her euphemistic name for Haney. She calls him "Pal" but the tone of her voice and the words following are not friendly. This inverted meaning of the word "pal" adds punch to the words of the threat.
    If you remember, in the PMPT movie, Cherokee, Marg Helgenberger as Patsy, has her arm outstretched and her hand almost in the detective's face, when she tells him not go there. at the mention of Burke's name. I wish he had stuck to his guns and kept bombarding her, he might have found out more.

    In the police files, when Tom Haney is back questioning her about Burke, and asks her if Burke could have pushed JonBenét down the stairs. She replies:
    Burke Ramsey did not do this, okay? He did not do this. Get off it. Page 176.

    To me, she is so damn sure of who did it, she can confidently say it wasn't Burke.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    Burke btw when interviewed said that JonBenet's bedwetting was a big problem. And to someone like Patsy who wanted a perfect little doll as a child, JonBenet's silent protest through bedwetting was probably a continuing insult to her mother's narcissistic personality.
    rashomon, could you please provide a source/link as to this statement from Burke? Thanks!

    -Tea

  7. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by icedtea4me
    rashomon, could you please provide a source/link as to this statement from Burke? Thanks!

    -Tea
    It's in Steve Thomas' book (hardcover ed., 2000) p. 316/317, where he referred to Burke being interviewed in early June 1998:

    When asked how he thought JonBenet had been killed, he [Burke] replied, "I have no idea." In his first interview he had been explicit in describing what happened to her. He confirmed that her bedwetting had been a big problem.

  8. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1
    In the police files, when Tom Haney is back questioning her about Burke, and asks her if Burke could have pushed JonBenét down the stairs. She replies:
    Burke Ramsey did not do this, okay? He did not do this. Get off it. Page 176.

    To me, she is so damn sure of who did it, she can confidently say it wasn't Burke.
    I was thinking exactly the same thing when reading this passage (p. 326 in ST's book):

    Haney continued to be inhospitable and probed about whether the death could have been an accident resulting from bed-wetting. Patsy held up a hand, like a stop sign. "You're going down the wrong path, buddy!"

    If I tell a person he's going down the wrong path with his speculations as to what happened, I must be sure what actually happened (something far more sinister than bedwetting maybe?).

    The other possibilty is of course that Patsy flat-out lied and quickly said Haney was going down the wrong path, while in fact he was going up the right path and had hit the nail on the head with his speculation.

  9. #45
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    She behaved like a mother lion protecting her cub, rashomon, ready to almost kill the attacker. I quite believe, had it not been Detective Haney doing the questioning, she would have powed him one. He was the police, and he had the right to go wherever he wanted with his questions. Something far wrong with this scene, isn't there?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    It's in Steve Thomas' book (hardcover ed., 2000) p. 316/317, where he referred to Burke being interviewed in early June 1998:

    When asked how he thought JonBenet had been killed, he [Burke] replied, "I have no idea." In his first interview he had been explicit in describing what happened to her. He confirmed that her bedwetting had been a big problem.
    Thanks, rashomon. It would be nice to know exactly what Burke said, but that's pretty doubtful.

    -Tea

  11. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Incest, child abuse...it's all about crossing boundaries and inappropriate behavior.
    Yes, koldkase, and I suspect that if there were such a thing going on, its roots were not in sexual gratification but rather in lending comfort. There are those who will say, "What about Melinda and John Andrew? They say their father never molested them, therefore he couldn't have been doing it to JonBenet." And their point is...? Lucinda and Patsy are two different people, and John did not experience the same things in his marriage to Lucinda as he did with Patsy. I mean, it's like Marquita Simpson (O.J.'s first wife) saying, "O.J. never stabbed me, therefore he couldn't have stabbed Nicole."

    So I wonder about those three phone calls to Dr. Beuf's office one day earlier that month. Had Patsy found blood in JonBenet's panties? We'll never know, probably, but I don't think what happened that fateful night came on in a few minutes. I think it was long in the making...and whoever was molesting JonBenet, the Rams didn't want anyone to know about it. Ever. Especially LE. JMO
    Here's where this is brought up in the June 1998 interview (bolding mine)-

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, if Suzanne

    0579

    1 were there, she might or my mother would, or you

    2 know.

    3 TOM HANEY: Did JonBenet ever

    4 complain about any inappropriate touching by

    5 anybody?

    6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    7 TOM HANEY: Absolutely sure?

    8 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).

    9 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, just so I am

    10 clear, the Desitin or any ointment or cream you

    11 ever did apply was topical?

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Topical.

    13 TRIP DeMUTH: So there was never

    14 any internal ointment?

    15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    16 TRIP DeMUTH: Or cream that you

    17 applied on JonBenet?

    18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    19 TOM HANEY: You made three calls to

    20 Dr. Buff 's office on December 7. Okay. Just--

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).

    22 TOM HANEY: Correct? Three in one

    23 day. One at 6:28 p.m., one at 6:50 p.m., and

    24 one at 6:59 p.m. Do you recall that day?

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: To the office or

    0580

    1 his home?

    2 TOM HANEY: To the office.

    3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't

    4 remember.

    5 TOM HANEY: Would that have been

    6 for something like this, to remember?

    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Seems like I would

    8 have remembered, you know.

    9 TOM HANEY: Three times in less

    10 than an hour?

    11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I just

    12 don't --

    13 TOM HANEY: Seems like you call--

    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Did I have, is

    15 there, you know, a check-up report after that,

    16 as to what that was?

    17 TOM HANEY: Um, sure -- well, I

    18 would assume that his office made some sort of

    19 at a minimum a notation?

    20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

    21 TOM HANEY: And or a chart entry, I

    22 don't know. I haven't seen that. That's one of

    23 the reasons I was asking you.

    24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.



    Makes you wonder the need to make three phone calls to Dr. Beuf's office all in a 30 minute or so time span. Maybe it was because JonBenet sneezed or something.

    -Tea

  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Well, I wonder where Little Angel went? All that work to respond to her demand to "be more specific," and...nothing?

    You see, then, Little Angel, another reason for the laugh at your question. It's a lot of work, and often when asked something like this, one is simply being baited and wasting one's time.

    But in case you have just been busy and were really sincere, another member here, Aurora, posted this article on another thread today, and it's a long one, but as comprehensive as any I've seen. So if you really want a much shorter read than a book, but a pretty thorough assessment of this case and the evidence, here it is:

    http://crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm
    Actually, FYI, I DO appreciate your hard work, thank you. I got an A on my paper. Yes, I have been busy. But I don't appreciate members taking a simple question as a joke, whether it's about the Ramseys innocence or guilt.

    Thanks,
    -LA



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