Info on garrote knot from PMPT

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Jun 12, 2006.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    In PMPT, I found this today, and since there is a lot of confusion about it, thought maybe it was worth re-visiting with this information, because I didn't remember this. It's toward the end of Schiller's book, which is so long some of us might have been too brain-damaged by the time we got here to remember this much. (From the looks of it, Schiller was suffering from his own case of brain damage by this point, as well.)

    From the chapter on the BPD's formal presentation to the DA:

    OK.

    By rope, I assume Schiller was referring to the cord found on the neck and wrists.

    By wrist, I assume Schiller meant neck.

    By coroner, I assume Schiller meant medical examiner.

    Sheesh, no wonder I'm so confused....

    But anyhow, IF Schiller was referring to the neck noose/garrote, and it seems he would have been because he's discussing stangulation as cause of death, he is identifying the knot on the neck as a "capsized square knot." He says it acted as a noose.

    Arguments naturally flowing from all the mistakes in the above quote notwithstanding, this is the only time I have seen the knot on the garrote identified.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    PMPT, paperback, p.661:

    " ... a reasonable person listening to the presentation could conclude that the blow to the head had probably come first."

    Ha ha. Well, that excludes Lou Smit and almost all of the RST from the "reasonable person" list. They insist the head blow came last. Of course, we've known for years that their theories don't fit the evidence, but it's nice to see it in print ... especially from a fairly impartial writer like Schiller.

    Thanks, KK. I'd forgotten this little tidbit.
     
  3. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Koldkase, these knots keep bugging me too. For some days ago I read the following info in the same book - Coroner Dr. Meyer's observations (PMPT, paperb, p. 41) about the ligature around JB's neck (emphasis mine):

    "Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that being tied around the wrist."

    There were also two tails of cord trailing from the knot. One was 4 inches long and frayed. The other was 17 inches long and had multiple loops secured around a wooden stick that was about 4 1/2 inches long. (PMPT, p. 41)


    So if there were two tails of cord trailing from the knot, the perp could have tied a simple shoe lace-type knot (the first knot you would make when tying a shoelace, and then the same knot once again ('double knot') around JB's neck, using the two ends of the cord, (overhand knot), keeping one tail deliberately shorter because he wanted to loop the remaining longer tail around the paintbrush stick.

    But if it was a shoe lace-type double knot, killing the victim by using the garrote contraption would have been physically impossible because this type of knot does not slip at all - it is fixed.

    Coroner Meyer called it a "double knot", but the police called it a "capsized square knot" where a rope had been pulled through a knot and acted as a noose. [I too suppose Schiller meant 'neck' instead of 'wrist'] Which is it now? What exactly is a 'capsized square knot'?
    The type of knot around JB's neck is extremely important because a fixed knot would make a garroting impossible. I'm not sure about a noose though.
    My head is spinning! :headache:
     
  4. JustChillun

    JustChillun Member

    Perhaps a "capsized square knot" is the poor communicator's way of stating that one tried to tie a square knot, but since they did not alternate the long and short sides of the cord so that the knot would hold intact, it flipped over into a slip knot of sorts, the type that you get if you do not tie a square knot, well, squarely. Why do you think that surgeons teach their students to make so many "throws" (knot passes or loopings) at the ends of sutures? It's because they are so often in a space where such an occurrence could undo a lot of hard work (some recommend 7 "throws" per knotting of the suture).

    With suturing, the long thread is more often the one still attached to the needle, and it's hard for the young to learn to alternate their knot tying approaches in order to square up the knot, since the long suture is often held at an angle that "capsizes" the other thread into a submissive/secondary position.
     
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yeah, what a headache this is, I agree.

    JonBenet was strangled. She had petechial hemorrhages well documented in the autopsy. The medical examiner determined she was strangled and listed that as the primary cause of death. The bruising under the cord around the neck occurred when the cord was tightened while the child was still alive. Bruising can occur after death, but it is identifiable as post mortem bruising and medical examiners know the difference. There is no question the evidence of the damage to the body proves JonBenet was strangled with the cord around her neck, IMO.

    You know, the reason I read at the swamp is the same reason I read here or anywhere, continue to be drawn to the information written in articles and books, revealed in depositions and interviews. Sometimes something triggers a thought, or someone has a thought that leads me to a possibility I hadn't considered.

    That happened yesterday. Can't remember the thread off the top of my head--maybe one on the garrote/knot there, but I want to bring this idea up here, so here goes.

    Someone said maybe the reason the garrote was used instead of manual strangulation was so bruises left by fingerprints wouldn't be identifiable--or something like that. Now this interested me.

    Then I thought about how killers say it is difficult to actually manually strangle a person, as it takes 3, 4, up to 6 minutes of putting direct pressure on the neck to cause death. That s a long time to squeeze with your hands in a fixed position, if you think about it. I heard a serial killer talk about this on TV once, and I've read about this in books written by LE and forensic experts.

    But how would the killer know that? A serial killer might know this. But there has been no comparable murder of a child or anyone else that has been linked to this murder, so it's not likely it was a serial killer. How would Patsy or John or someone doing a "first kill" know this? And JonBenet's neck was quite small. Since there is no bruising from fingers on the neck, it's not like they tried that first and then came up with Plan B.

    So that led me to think about why use the garrote, as well. Here are some thoughts I pondered:

    How hard would it be to put your fingers around your child's neck and strangle her for several minutes? Think about it. Of course, most of us couldn't ever imagine doing any of the awful things done to this child, but considering the fact that someone DID do these things to JonBenet's small, defenseless body, someone who cared enough about her to then wipe her down and redress her, lay her on her blanket and wrap her lovingly, latching the door to her temporary tomb afterwards, the difference between using their own hands around her neck and using a cord might be important to the killer.

    Also, the idea that finger impressions, left in bruising patterns, might help identify the hands making them led me to think about this: did Patsy have long fingernails? Acrylic? If she was the person figuring out how to do this, maybe she worried her nails would break or come off. Or maybe she worried that she'd leave scratches from her nails that would identify her because of her fingernails. Maybe get skin under them. Maybe fingernail polish would break off and be detected? So she went with a common noose she could make easily enough.

    Or maybe it was John and he worried about the same things, minus the nail polish and broken nails.

    Anyhow, just some thoughts that popped into my head. Because the "intruder" had on gloves, didn't he? Why would HE need to construct a garrote instead of just strangling that little neck?

    But now that has made me think that if it was Patsy/John, he/she could have worn gloves as well, which would eliminate the DNA problem or scratches, or fingernail polish left behind. But it wouldn't eliminate a long, broken manicured nail or two, which might be picked up by LE as incriminating. So John wouldn't worry about a broken nail, but Patsy might have still had that concern. As women know who maintain long nails, they are always a concern.

    Well, I'm sure reasons can be imagined, as all of our ponderings are simply speculation, but these thoughts did cross my mind, so thought I would pass them along and get others' ideas.
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

  7. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you for this information Just Chillun. Makes sense. I usuallytackle sewing on a button like this, but with only two throws as you call them. :)
     
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    And may I say, John Ramsey, you are such a liar.

    This is a link I found, and granted it's a Canadian qualification system, but now I'm thinking surely there is an American qualification system similar:

    http://www.sailing.ca/learnmore/education/lts/WI.shtm

    And notice that one must have not only mastered certain knots for sailing, ONE of which is the square knot, but one must be able to do them IN SECONDS.

    We've discussed this before, but I had to bring this here so we can further investigate John's IGNORANCE OF KNOTS, which he stated TWICE that we know of, ONCE UNDER OATH IN HIS WOLF DEPOSITION, he did NOT know nothing 'bout no knots!
     
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    Those animations are great KK. If only we could see the garrote constructed like that, wouldn't that be something? All at the one time in slow motion. I see with these animations, you get the choice to see it slow, or fast.
     
  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    You're making me think KK. I'm sure gloves were worn, and if so. they would have needed those fine clear gloves which fit close to the hand. I think one could still tie knots using those. Those rubber type gloves which cover the wrists would have been too awkward for the perps to use.

    An interesting thought as to just how Patsy Ramsey's nails were done for Christmas evening (?). Those acrylic nails, especially the ends would have made some really bad marks, even with those clear gloves on. The Christmas photos have never been published, but the police must have examined these photos very closely, for all you have stated above, I'm sure.

    Wouldn't it be interesting to know if Patsy Ramsey's nails changed after the death of JonBenét? Wish we could get our hands on those Christmas photos. I wonder why they haven't published those (?); especially when the police files have now been made public. I think if Jameson had them, they would have been handed over to the NE along with the police files.
     
  11. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    justchillin

    Whoever recommends 7 throws on their knots has some problem unless they are knotting something slippery like prolene (kind of like thin fishing line). I have learned when you tie a surgical knot properly (square) that more throws don't make a better knot - just a bulkier knot. Now if you are teaching a medical student that can be another story.... :tsktsk:
     
  12. JustChillun

    JustChillun Member

    That's what I'm talking about,and it usually was with a monofilament or with slimy parts greasing the vicryl...you know all about slimy.

    So anyway, the cord could have been twisted and the person doing it could have held it in a twisted mode and yet turned away from the victim during the "waiting time" of the strangulation, whereas they would be forced to watch face-on if they used their hands for manual strangulation.

    As for the blanket, it is a smarmy and sentimental touch, sort of a perverted show of love (too little, too late) in my interpretation.

    True killers of the professional sort do not take time to find out which blanket is the one with sentimental value. A soiled towel from the laundry pile would do. The dog's blanket would work.

    But why cover the body so lovingly and caringly? That is what a caregiver would do with a body, not a killer or pervert. The choice of wrapping materials and the very fact that JB's body was wrapped up shows not only a sensitivity toward the victim but also toward the family. After all, they might not have wanted to view her body postmortem any more than during the final hypoxic (strangulation) incident.

    The parents have a modus operandi of always defending and protecting their own feelings, right?

    This would all fit right in, then.
     
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    [edited because I got this wrong the first time, see next post}

    OK, I've been practicing the square knot and collapsing it.

    Here is a surprise:

    When you collapse the square knot, it then looks remarkably like the double half hitch on the wrist knot that encircled JonBenet's right wrist. That double half hitch created a knot that, when pulled, slides into a tightened loop, grabbing and holding remarkably well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2006
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    OK, I went back and made both knots on the same cord. I was wrong about the collapsed square knot not working when you pull it. I must have pulled the wrong end. It works just like the double half hitch.

    In fact, it IS the double half hitch when it collapses.

    So...the collapsed square knot is a sailor's knot, used on sails FOR the purpose of collapsing it. I think.
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    OK, here's the thing I've been playing with. I noticed this with the straight out double half hitch some months ago when I made one from the wrist knot picture: when you pull to tighten the noose/loop...it moves the knot around the object you encircle, in the direction you're pulling.

    I don't know if I can explain this, but I'll try.

    Let's say you tie the knot, creating a loop around the neck. The loop/noose is lose on the neck, so you position the knot at the center of the neck.

    When you pull on the cord end that tightens the loop/noose, the knot moves around the neck as it tightens, ending up in another position on the neck.

    OK, that's not clear, is it?

    You pull on the cord, the cord is loose, but to tighten it, you have to pull at an ANGLE from the knot/cord, like pulling against the knot by pulling the cord sideways from the knot conjunction with the cord, not straight out.

    Imagine a straight line with a knot in the miiddle. Now bend the line and make an "elbow" where the knot is, creating an angle from what was a straight line.

    So as you pull the long end of the cord against that knot at an angle, causing it to tighten, it moves in the direction from which you're pulling.

    This seems significant to me, because remember how JonBenet's hair was caught in the cord, and if you notice, you can see that it seems it was pulled SIDEWAYS, as well. I think this explains that, and confirms that this is the knot used on the garrote at the neck to make the noose.

    Well, maybe. I'm not on sure ground here. Open for observations and ideas, for sure.
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Darn. I was writing this detailed post trying to explain what I just figured out about the difference between the capsized square knot and the double half hitch, and I managed to lose it when I went to get some links for illustration.

    Well, I'm tired so here's the gist of it:

    The wrist ligature tie IS the capsized square knot, definitely, not the double half hitch. The distinction is a fine one that it took me hours of tying and pulling and loosening and comparing and studying online to understand. Basically, both knots will tighten and hold on the cord, but the double half hitch ends with the lead and opposite ends of the cord coming out at different places in the knot, creating a single loop over the part of the cord around which you're making the knot, while the capsized square knot has two loops side by side.

    Looking carefully at the wrist ligature knot in this autopsy picture here, you can compare it to the capsized square knot and see they are identical (you may need to use your magnifier to see this clearly, as the picture is white on white):

    http://zyberzoom.com/wristknot.jpg

    Here is a fair illustration of a square knot collapsed, or a capsized square knot. It's not pulled tight, though, so you see it loosely to demonstrate its construction. Make one yourself and pull it tight and you'll see the wrist ligature knot:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Capsizereefknot111.jpg

    Don't know if this will help if you're wondering why I changed my mind from my original search for the wrist ligature knot, but this simple illustration shows the cord ends going in opposite directions, while the capsized square knot has a two parallel loops around the cord itself.

    http://www.tutorials.com/05/0540/05402.asp
     
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    The thing is, Elle, I think we have it here exactly how the garrote was tied. I'm trying to find illustrations online that show exactly how it was done, but the best illustration is the wrist ligature picture, I now see. It's exactly how the "capsized square knot" works that Schiller names in his book as the garrote knot.

    But here's the thing: I don't think the capsizing...or collapsing, was accidental. It's a very common and well-known weakness of the square knot, with all illustrations warning about that element of this knot.

    So that would mean the killer who tied the knot...knew how to collapse it beforehand, and meant to do just that, to create the sliding feature. There's no reason to tie a square knot on a cord being made into a noose to strangle someone with that I can see, except to capsize it into an effective knot for tightening the noose.

    So it's a common sailing knot, with serious warnings about using it for the wrong function at sea without knowing it will collapse if you pull the wrong cord.

    It seems to me that anyone who knew how to tie this knot would in all probability know its functions. It won't slide as a square knot, so useless to make a noose. But collapse/capsize it, and it slides and holds tightly.

    I think the knot on the wrist ligature is quite neatly done. It hasn't been tightened, so we can clearly see its construction. If it had been tightened, like the one on the neck, it's too compressed for us to see how it's tied. Guess it's lucky it was left so loose.

    I dont' know, but it seems this is the same knot as used on the garrote, again, as it's the one Schiller identifies in PMPT and it works for the function of a workable noose.

    Also a significant difference is that the wrist ligature knot is tied around its own cord, as opposed to a square knot being constructed to tie two SEPARATE cords and then collapsed into the sliding knot. The reason the square knot is so dangerous used on a ship if its capsizing feature isn't known is because the cords, once collapsed, easily come apart when the collapsed knot's cord slips out of the loops of the other cord.

    But the wrist ligature wasn't constructed at all to combine two cords, was it? It was constructed with one cord, looped on itself, to appear to be a binding, using the same knot as was used on the neck noose.

    I swear, I've been at this since for many hours now, and I cannot find one illustration of using this knot on a cord in this manner. I can now see why Schiller described it as "some sort of capsized square knot," because the person who tied it seems to have fashioned it rather uniquely. It's absolutely easy to duplicate, without even doing the square knot first. And the square knot can be made with a single rope, I've done it several times tonight, and then collapsed.

    I've been thinking about Fleet White. What I've been thinking about is if he saw that knot on the wrist ligature and recognized it. I've said all along that someone has seen the killer make such a noose/knot/ligature somewhere, for some purpose, and they know it. That is how the killer could have been identified, because the ligature IS the smoking gun.

    But that person either never came forward, or the DA/BPD buried that witness testimony forever.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2006
  18. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Lordy KK, you are one smart woman. I would have never been able to figure out the knots like you just did.

    It breaks my heart everytime I see that little hand with the cord around it. Looks like a doll hand.
     
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, no, I'm not smart, just stubborn as a mule. I know the information is out there, and that the DA is hiding it for a purpose only the devil would understand, and that really ticks me off.

    So...I keep looking for it. The bad news is, I really need to go back and read all the books all over again, and I probably would have the answers right there. In the beginning, it was too much information, too many names to keep track of, too much I didn't know about the sciences involved, the law, etc. But now, I might actually understand and be able to remember the information.

    But it would just tick me off more...and I'm getting too old to have my blood pressure jacked up now.

    I spared you the worst autopsy photos, Tricia, by linking to just that one photo from the webpage. It's a blasphemy what they did. God help them.
     
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    Having a restless night, but this was worth getting up for. Like Tricia, I have had a hard time trying to figure out these knots. Delmar has certainly posted a great deal about them, but I personally need to see a close-up demonstration. This is why I liked the animations you posted KK. You certainly don't let the grass grow under your feet KK. I can see you've been at this for hours. I didn't know a knot could collapse like this. This is the first time I've read about this.

    I'll spend more time looking at the wrist knot tomorrow. We really need close-up animations like you have posted, to fully understand this garrote. You certainly have made a great attempt, and have stayed with it, whereas, most of us left it.

    I'm sure there has to be an American qualification system similar to the Canadian one. How did John Ramsey manage to get away with those lies about not knowing knots?
     
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