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  1. #1
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    Default The Huge (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear on JonBenet, Modeled By Six-Year-Old

    As promised, I purchased a packet of size 12/14 Bloomies from Bloomingdales in NY and here are some photos of them.

    The first is for KoldKase. I think it was you who once asked about the packet they came in and how it was sealed.

    This is the packet:-
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    Last edited by Cherokee; May 29, 2012, 12:24 am at Tue May 29 0:24:41 UTC 2012.
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    This is the seal. There is a little plastic "string" which goes through the loop at the end, the tags and the hole in the zipper. You need to break this to open it. In the photo, the seal is intact:-
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    And this is the size 12/14 and size 4/6 side by side. My daughter is almost exactly the same weight and height as Jonbenet was when she died (and she is almost exactly the same age too - 6 years and 6 months). I won't be getting her to model the larger knickers as I don't think it would be right to do so. The dimensions of the knickers are as follows:-

    Size 12/14 - measure 12 inches from waistband to bottom of crotch and waistband is 22 inches unstretched.

    Size 4/6 - measure 8.5 inches from waistband to crotch and waistband is just under 17 inches unstretched.

    The size 4/6 fit my daughter just now.

    My observation without her trying them on is that they would be very "gapey" at the crotch and would hang down at the crotch. The legs look very wide.
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    Copied from WS:-

    Well I just did a little experiment. I offered the larger size knickers to my daughter and she exclaimed "Mummy! These are too big! More like YOUR size". So there is no way she would mistake them for her own. Then I got her to try them on and they are simply huge on her. They wouldn't fall down round her ankles necessarily - not past her hip bones anyway, but they would certainly slip down as far as her hipbones - at which point the crotch is level with her knees. They are also incredibly baggy. Every heard the expression "droopy drawers"? They bag out at the back and form a little tunnel from one side to the next.

    They would be extremely uncomfortable to wear and I quite frankly cannot imagine any child being happy to do so.

    Another poster mentioned the possibility of them being worn over pullups and they would certainly accomodate rather large pullups with PLENTY of room to spare.
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  5. #5
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    Try one more experiment. Have her put them on, and then put on a pair of pants over them. I will wager that they will come off entirely with the pants, and that you would have to extract them from inside the pants in order to put them back on.

    Edited to add: Now this was a useful thing to do. The picture of the size relationships alone is valuable grist for our discussion mill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Why_Nut
    Try one more experiment. Have her put them on, and then put on a pair of pants over them. I will wager that they will come off entirely with the pants, and that you would have to extract them from inside the pants in order to put them back on.
    Let me get this clear:-

    Put the oversized knickers on first
    Put normal sized knickers on atop?
    Then try to remove the normal sized ones to see if the large ones come off inside?

    Or do you mean trousers? Remember pants = knickers to me and "panties" is a naughty word here so I struggle to use it in posts!
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  7. #7
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    Default Girls Size 12-14 "Bloomies" Modeled On a Six-Year-Old Like JonBenet

    OK I apologise in advance for my shoddy workmanship and poor photography. My model collapsed a little when I moved it - a shoulder and one of the legs. I left it over the weekend to dry and this evening I carefully padded it out so that the measurements were accurate. It's a bit lumpier than a human model would be, but the measurements are correct and that is the main thing.

    My Tootsie's measurements are as follows:-

    Height 47 inches (same as Jonbenet)
    Weight 46 lbs (1lb heavier than Jonbenet)
    Chest - 22 inches
    Waist - 20 inches
    Hips - 23 inches
    Thigh - 13 inches

    NOTE: The names of the files all end in the word "resized" - that has nothing to do with the model but refers to the photographs. I resized the photos to post them here.

    The first three photographs are showing the model's waist, hip and thigh being measured.

    ETA - sorry that should be thighs 13 inches - my Tootsie does NOT have 16 inch thighs!
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    Default 4-6 Bloomies

    Now the model is wearing the 4-6 Bloomies - views from the front, side and back. These are not stretched when worn. On my Tootsie, they fit and will probably continue to fit for a few months.
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    Default Side

    Now from the side - this also proves that the model is 3 dimensions!
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    Default Back

    View from the back
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  11. #11
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    Default 12-14 Bloomies

    Now the photos you've been waiting for. There are more than half a dozen of these. They slide down so I left the smaller size on to show where the waistband should be and where they slide down to. You can see how baggy they are - especially around the legholes and how they dangle down towards the knees.

    I will be interested to know if ANYONE thinks these would be OK for a little girl to wear.
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  12. #12

    Default The oversized Bloomingdale’s underwear on JonBenet

    This is essentially a repost of a post of mine from Websleuths, but since my inspiration was the outstanding work by Jayelles here, I thought it would be worthwhile to bring this over FFJ.
    Links to the work of Jayelles:
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=7128

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=7107

    • At least one package of size 12-14, “Days of the week,” underwear was purchased by PR at Bloomingdale’s during a trip to New York in November 1996.These were to be a gift for PR’s niece Jenny Davis.Jenny is described by JR as follows:
    Q. Do you recall approximately how big she was in 1996? I know it is a tough question.
    A. She's either a junior or a senior in high school now. And she's fairly stocky.
    John Ramsey, 2000 interview


    • Jenny was 11 or 12 years old in late 1996, PR’s description below:
    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time, how old was Jenny?
    A. I don't know. Probably -- I don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but I don't know exactly how old she was. Q. Would these panties, size wise, be more appropriate for -- is she an older girl?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And I assume a larger girl?
    A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a young woman, but then she was a little girl.
    Q. How old is she now?
    A. She is now 15, I believe.
    Q. So she would have been about 12 or somewhere --
    A. 11.
    Q. -- 11, 12?
    A. Yeah.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000


    • The “Wednesday” panty from the set of size 12-14 Bloomingdale’s panties was what was found on the body of JBR when they examined her at the autopsy.There is no question, whatsoever, that she was wearing those particular panties. The evidence is as follows:
    This warrant for arrest is issued upon affidavit sworn to and affirmed before this court and relating facts sufficient to establish probable cause that the above-named offense has been committed and probable cause that the person named in ths warrant committed that offense.

    Repeatedly throughout ths telephone conversation DAXIS referred to the underwear worn by JonBenet as "her knickers".
    DAXIS advised Michael Tracey that he removed the "knickers" from JonBenet and took the item with him after he left the Ramsey residence by way of the same point that he entered into the home. DAXIS added he placed underwear or "knickers" onto JonBenet that he brought with him. The underwear brought by DAXIS was several sizes too large for JonBenet. DAXIS mentioned that the oversized underwear also bore the day of "Wednesday". It should be noted that at the time of discovery JonBenet Ramsey at the lower level of her residence, she was in fact attired in light colored pajamas and oversized underwear designed for a twelve to fourteen year old female. The underwear bore the day name of "Wednesday". The telephone call between Michael Tracey and DAXIS was recorded by way of an audiocassette-recording device
    Warrant for Arrest upon Affidavit, August 15, 2006 (re: John Mark Karr)


    Q. JonBenet was found wearing the Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your understanding is correct, that is a fact, you can accept that as a fact, when she was found murdered. Those underpants do not fit her. Were you aware of that?
    MR. WOOD: Are you stating that as a matter of fact --
    MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a matter --
    MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old child?
    MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as a matter of fact.



    Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you aware that these were the size of panties that she was wearing, and this has been publicized, it is out in the open, that they were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of that?
    A. I have become aware of that, yes.

    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000


    • There is no doubt that Patsy bought at least one package of size 12 – 14, “Days of the week” underwear at Bloomingdale’s in November, 1996.
    Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start with what - I will make it very simple for you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you in possession of or what do you know about the underwear that your daughter was wearing at the time she was found murdered?
    A. I have heard that she had on a pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
    Q. The underwear that she was wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you know where they come from as far as what store?
    A. Bloomingdale’s in New York.
    Q. Who purchased those?
    A. I did.

    Q. Do you recall when you purchased them?
    A. It was, I think, November of '96.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000


    • Patsy claimed that it was JonBenet’s idea to purchase them:
    Q. Was it something that was selected by JonBenet?
    A. I believe so.

    Q. Was it your intention, when you purchased those, for those to be for her, not for some third party as a gift?
    A. I bought some things that were gifts and some things for her. So I don't --
    Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is your best recollection that the purchase of the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the week, was something that you bought for her, whether it was just I am buying underwear for my kids or these are special, here's a present, that doesn't matter, but it was your intention that she would wear those?
    A. Well, I think that I bought a package of the -- they came in a package of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. I think I bought a package to give to my niece.
    Q. Which niece was that?
    A. Jenny Davis.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • PR claimed that she was going to give them as part of a gift to Jenny, but for somehow ended up keeping them for JBR instead:
    MS. HARMER: I guess I am not clear on, you bought the panties to give to Jenny.
    THE WITNESS: Right.
    MS. HARMER: And they ended up in JonBenet's bathroom?

    A. Right.
    Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm sorry. Do you recall making a decision then not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet express an interest in them; therefore, you didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
    A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I think I bought them with the intention of sending them in a package of Christmas things to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that together, so I just put them in her, her panty drawer. So they were free game.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000


    • According to PR, JBR opened the package and put them on:
    Q. Okay. What we are trying to understand is whether -- we are trying to understand why she is wearing such a large pair of underpants. We are hoping you can help us if you have a recollection of it.
    A. I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000


    • PR would never admit to ever dressing her in the large panties.
    MS. HARMER: But you specifically remember her putting on the bigger pair?
    And I am not saying --
    THE WITNESS: They were just in her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all of her clean panties in a drawer and she can help herself to whatever is in there.

    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000


    • PR further claimed that the size difference was minimal, and had no problem with JBR wearing the oversized panties:
    Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it was, if it had caught your attention or came to your attention, do you think you might have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't fit, put something on that fits, that is inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
    had come to your attention –
    A. Well, obviously we, you know, the package had been opened, we made the decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and use them because, you know, we weren't going to give them to Jenny after all, I guess, so. I mean, if you have ever seen these little panties, there is not too much difference in the size. So, you know, I'm sure even if they were a little bit big, they were special because we got them up there, she wanted to wear them, and they didn't fall down around her ankles, that was fine with me.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000


    • Despite the fact that only size 4-6 panties were found in JBR’s panty drawer, PR claimed that JBR normally would wear size 8-10.
    Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you aware that these were the size of panties that she was wearing, and this has been publicized, it is out in the open, that they were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of that?
    A. I have become aware of that, yes.
    Q. And how did you become aware of that?
    A. Something I read, I am sure.
    Q. And I will just state a fact here. I mean, there were 15 pairs of panties taken out of, by the police, out of JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is that where she kept -
    A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    Q. -- where you were describing that they were just put in that drawer?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Okay. And every one of those was either a size four or a size six. Okay?
    Would that have been about the size pair of panties that she wore when she was six years old?
    A. I would say more like six to eight. There were probably some in there that were too small.
    Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
    A. Not typically, no.

    MR. KANE: Okay.
    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you understand the reason we are asking this, we want to make sure that this intruder did not bring these panties with him, this was something --
    A. Right.
    Q. - that was in the house.
    A. Yes.
    Q. And we are clear that, as far as you know, that is something that was in this house?
    A. Yes.
    Q. -- that belonged to your daughter, these panties?
    A. Correct.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000


    • PR also downplayed the difference in size between Jenny and JonBenet.
    Q. Was it something that, the fact that she is wearing these underpants designed for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and I will give you a minute to think about it because I know it is tough to try to pin down a couple of months of casual conversation -- do you recall ever having any conversations with her concerning the fact that she is wearing underwear that is just too large for her?
    A. No.

    Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it was, if it had caught your attention or came to your attention, do you think you might have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't fit, put something on that fits, that is inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
    had come to your attention –
    A. Well, obviously we, you know, the package had been opened, we made the decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and use them because, you know, we weren't going to give them to Jenny after all, I guess, so. I mean, if you have ever seen these little panties, there is not too much difference in the size. So, you know, I'm sure even if they were a little bit big, they were special because we got them up there, she wanted to wear them, and they didn't fall down around her ankles, that was fine with me.
    MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see if they fell down around her ankles or not?
    THE WITNESS: No.




    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time, how old was Jenny?
    A. I don't know. Probably -- I don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but I don't know exactly how old she was.
    Q. Would these panties, size wise, be more appropriate for -- is she an older girl?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And I assume a larger girl?
    A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a young woman, but then she was a little girl.
    Q. How old is she now?
    A. She is now 15 , I believe.
    Q. So she would have been about 12 or somewhere --
    A. 11.
    Q. – 11, 12 ?
    A. Yeah.
    Q. And based on the, I guess, dimensions that Mr. Levin has talked about, these would have been a size appropriate for her?
    A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000


    • Is PR telling the truth, or was she caught in a lie? Is the size difference minor as PR seems to suggest?
    The physical differences between JonBenet and Jenny would be as follows, (based on averages from various sites, and autopsy information)



    Jenny would have stood at least 10 inches taller that JBR, weighed at least 40 pounds more and have hips that were about 6 inches larger.
    These are very significant differences and it’s obvious that clothing of any sort for one would be clearly inappropriate for the other.
    Here is an approximation of the size difference between the two girls



    In children’s sizes we are going from small to large:





    http://www.usatourist.com/english/tr...ens-sizes.html

    Jayelles purchased from Bloomingdale’s an identical pair of size 4-6 “Days of the week” panties and photographed them alongside a pair of 12-14 panties.
    The disparity in size is striking.
    My wife purchased size 6, 12 and 14 children’s underwear, and I photographed them.
    The brand is Hanes and the difference is similarly striking.

    According to Jayelles, her measurements of the Bloomingdale’s panties are:
    Size 4/6 - measure 8.5 inches from waistband to crotch and waistband is just under 17 inches unstretched.

    Size 12/14 - measure 12 inches from waistband to bottom of crotch and waistband is 22 inches unstretched.

    My measurements of the Hanes panties, which are single sized and not range sized as the Bloomingdale’s panties are, are as follows:

    Size 6 - measure 8.75 inches from waistband to crotch and waistband is 17 inches unstretched

    Size 12- measure 11.75 inches from waistband to bottom of crotch and waistband is 22 inches unstretched.

    Size 14 - measure 12.25 inches from waistband to bottom of crotch and waistband is 23 inches unstretched.

    The green/blue Hanes panties are size 6
    The orange/purple Hanes panties are size 12
    The solid blue Hanes panties are size 14













    I feel that this confirms the sizing that Jayelles found (taking into consideration the difference in brand and sizing convention.)
    For those that do not believe that this is accurate, I would encourage them to purchase these sizes and see for themselves. Seeing is believing.

    PR lied at least three times during the course of questioning regarding the oversized panties.
    • She tried to say that Jenny was a “little girl” and imply that her panty size would not be terribly dissimilar to JonBenet.
    • She tried to say that she commonly bought size 8-10 panties for JBR, thereby making the size 12 – 14 panties seem less unusual
    • She tried to say that the size 12 – 14 panties were only “a little bit big”
    Additionally, I don’t believe that JonBenet picked out and wore these panties on Christmas day as PR suggested, nor do I believe that PR had any plans for those panties other than giving them to her niece. I believe that the panties were wrapped as a gift, but something happened which changed those plans, something which necessitated removing the Wednesday panties from the package in which they were wrapped and redressing JBR in them.

    These are the physical characteristics of the daughter of Jayelles:
    Height 47 inches (same as Jonbenet)
    Weight 46 lbs (1lb heavier than Jonbenet)
    Chest - 22 inches
    Waist - 20 inches
    Hips - 23 inches
    Thigh - 13 inches


    One objection that comes up occasionally is that perhaps oversized panties were used because JonBenet was wearing Pull-Ups, however, Patsy’s testimony suggests otherwise.
    Patsy insisted in two interviews that, while JBR continued to have bed wetting issues, she was trying not to use Pull-Ups, instead utilizing a plastic sheet on the bed:

    PR: If I just didn’t take her to the potty and make her go to the potty before bedtime, she very likely would wet the bed.
    TT: Ok. You have any idea about, has this been going on for how long? Any time that she broken and didn’t have any bed wetting problems and then started back up or anything like that.
    PR: No, no, she just, I mean I’ve had her in pull-ups until very recently. I kind of thought it might be better, I mean pull-ups and those pamper things are so absorbent, that you can’t you know, the child can’t feel if they’re wet or not. So I thought well it might just be better if she felt wet than being…
    Patsy Ramsey, 1997 interview


    TOM HANEY: In the video that the police took walking through, which was taken some time later, there are -- there are packages of Pull-ups.
    PATSY RAMSEY: They would be in there, yeah.
    TOM HANEY: All right. They are partially hanging out in the video?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Yup.
    TOM HANEY: Would those be the Pull-ups that you would normally put on JonBenet?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TOM HANEY: Do you recall the last time you put those on her?
    PATSY RAMSEY: It hadn't been for quite some time, but I remember buying them to take a few with us on the cruise, thinking that maybe a combination it would be like on the cruise, and I didn't want her to spoil the mattress. So I bought a new package, and probably had taken some out and put them in the suitcase I was packing. But she hadn't really worn them, you know, very much recently.
    TOM HANEY: Do you recall prior when the last time you put Pull-ups on her?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    Patsy Ramsey, 1998 interview


    Also:

    In the summer of 96, JonBenét started wearing those diaper-type underpants—Pull-Ups. She even wore them to bed. There was always a wet one in the trash. By the end of the summer, Patsy was trying to get her to do without them. Then JonBenét started wetting the bed again. Almost every day I was there, there was a wet bed. Patsy said she wasn’t going to use Pull-Ups again. She just put a plastic cover on the bed. No big deal to her. By the time I’d come in the morning, Patsy would have all the sheets off the bed and in the laundry. JonBenét’s white blanket would already be in the dryer. The Ramseys had two washer-dryers—one in the basement and a stackable unit in a closet just outside JonBenét’s room.
    Perfect Murder Perfect Town, page 198

    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Mrs. Ramsey, prior to going to the Whites, did you see JonBenet in panties? In other words, were you at any point, prior to going to the Whites, in the process of her getting dressed, did you ever see if she was wearing panties?
    A. I mean, I just probably didn't notice. I would, she must have had them on
    or I would have certainly noticed if she didn't have any on.
    Q. When you came home and you got her ready for bed, did you notice if she was
    wearing panties? When you changed her out of the black velvet --
    A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    Q. - type pants --
    A. Right.
    Q. -- and into the long underwear pants --
    A. Uh-huh, right.
    Q. -- the White ones, did you notice if she had a pair of panties on?
    A. Yes, she did. I believe she did.
    Q. Why do you remember that? I mean, what do you remember? I just want to know what you remember about that.
    A. Well, I took the jeans off and put the long leggings on.
    Q. And you noticed that she had panties on in that process?
    A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    Q. You have to answer yes or no.
    A. Well, I noticed -- I mean, nothing was unusual. I mean, if she hadn't had panties on, it would have been unusual. So --
    Q. So there was nothing unusual there?
    A. Correct.

    Q. When you actually removed those -- you have -- they are black velvet pants?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And did the panties come down with them when you removed those pants, if you remember?
    A. I don't remember.
    Q. If they had, would you remember, or is that too long ago?
    A. It has been a long time.
    Q. But did you change -- did you put a fresh pair of panties on her at that point when you were getting her ready for bed?
    A. No.

    Patsy Ramsey, 2000 interview

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