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  1. #37

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    Koldkase,
    I've read that many times and that went right over my head. I think you've made a brilliant discovery. The size 12/14 panties were NOT found in the house. So who took them????
    According to the snippet below taken from your above post:

    11 Q. And I will just state a fact

    12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

    13 taken out of, by the police, out of

    14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

    15 that where she kept -

    16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    17 Q. -- where you were describing that

    18 they were just put in that drawer?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was

    21 either a size four or a size six.
    Okay?

  2. #38
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    Someone, please whack me on the head or tell me that this doesn't seem to be LE stating that the OTHER size 12/14 panties WERE NOT FOUND IN THE HOUSE
    Yes, KK, this is what it seems like to me. Patsy does confirm they were definitely in the house. I'm sure most of us remember the larger set of underwear was bought for a niece, with JonBenét liking them, and Patsy letting her keep them. Doesn't make much sense. We all know she couldn't have worn those large panties, not under a skirt, for sure.

    I think JonBenét had to be still wearing those pull-ups. They take up too much space in a cupboard if not needed.

    Perfect Murder Perfect Town - Lawrence Schiller PB 236-237

    According to Linda Hoffman Pugh, in the summer of 1996 JonBenét Ramsey started wearing the diaper-type pull-ups. She even wore them to her bed. There was always a wet one in the trash. By the end of the summer Patsy was trying to get her to do without them. JonBenét started wetting the bed again. LHP says that there was a wet bed almost every day she was there, and that was about three days a week.

    Patsy then decided to use a plastic cover, and no more pull-ups. By the time Linda arrived the sheets and JB's white blanket were in the dryer.

    Linda stated the children dressed themselves, and all their underwear was marked with the days of the week.

    PMPT page 337
    While researching this, I also came across Schiller's interview with Linda Wilcox, who talks about Burke wearing pull-ups until he was six. Wilcox states that JonBenét always wore them. Wilcox told the police that she noticed Burke stopped wetting the bed when he was no longer the focus of Patsy's attention, and JonBenét became a chronic bedwetter, but stated that both of them were still wetting the bed when she left in September, 1995
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #39

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    This has, indeed, been a most interesting discussion.

    - When Patsy stated "We made the decision to use them (the size 12/14 underwear), I highly doubt she's referring to herself and JonBenet. Nope. No way.

    - I never realized the remaining size 12/14s weren't there to be gathered up with the 4/6s. Wow. Just wow.

    - Regarding Det. Arndt and the bag of clothes... Sometime that morning, Detective Arndt found a paper bag with children's clothing next to the den door, and she moved it intothe cloakroom. (PMPT, pp.79-80, pb version)


    -Tea

  4. #40

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    As driven as Patsy was to be the best at everything she did, I can only imagine how hard she was to please.

    When I look at pictures of JonBenet, wearing lipstick so young, I can't imagine what Patsy was thinking doing this to a small child. It's just SICK: hair dyed BLOND AT SIX, hair extentions and teasing, manicures, literally scores of professional photos, dance lessons, singing lessons, costume fittings, performance after performance, rehearsals--the child was SIX YEARS OLD! I cannot imagine how much pressure she lived under.

    Tylin, I have read this part of the interview, and I mean with a fine toothed comb, many times. It just never sunk in before with me, either.

    And to their credit, I am in awe of how fast those interviewing Patsy JUMPED on her discrepancies and plied her for details. She hanged herself...except that there was no DA to prosecute.

    Because I am telling you, this one passage says it all to me now. Wood wasn't about to wet his pants for nothing. Patsy was nailed here. She bought the 12/14 panties, she put them in the drawer, ONE PAIR was found on JonBenet's murdered body, and NONE OF THE OTHERS WERE FOUND IN THE HOME.

    And the fact that jams gave away the farm is just priceless.

    I guess Schiller is now going to argue that the intruder went through the drawer to find ALL the Bloomies panties too large for his victim, which she'd never worn, chose one pair to put on her, and then took the rest for souvenirs...after he tied her up in her bed and took her downstairs and fed her pineapple...leaving the bag of rope...but taking panties, duct tape and cord...leaving the body and ransom note...but taking Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday undies, which must have fit HIM. I DON'T THINK SO....

    Yeah, Why Nut, they aren't going to ever talk about evidence which they don't like at the swamp. Why waste time denyingdenyingdenying reality when it's just as easy to ignore it to begin with?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #41

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    Koldkase,
    (I love reading your post.)
    I swear, I had chills when I read the part of the interview you highlighted. It was suddenly as plain as the nose on my face--Kane let Patsy know right then and there that the other size 12/14 panties were not found in the house. You said:
    Because I am telling you, this one passage says it all to me now. Wood wasn't about to wet his pants for nothing. Patsy was nailed here. She bought the 12/14 panties, she put them in the drawer, ONE PAIR was found on JonBenet's murdered body, and NONE OF THE OTHERS WERE FOUND IN THE HOME.

    And the fact that jams gave away the farm is just priceless.
    Absolutely on both counts.

  6. #42

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    "The panties were only a part of the staging. There were so many ticky tacky little things that the Ram's did in the process of preparing for the cover up. They were multitasking on a grand scale. It was a rush-rush- play-it-by-ear-thingy."

    With the pit-bulls from the law office making up the difference.

    "All they did, from somewhere around midnight to five in the morning, was nothing short of incredible. The note alone was very time consuming. However did they do it? Well, the more I think about it the more I believe that Patsy could possibly have been on something like speed. Has anyone else thought of that?"

    Yep. It's been thought she was taking diet pills, which are heavy on stimulants.

    "When I look at pictures of JonBenet, wearing lipstick so young, I can't imagine what Patsy was thinking doing this to a small child. It's just SICK: hair dyed BLOND AT SIX, hair extentions and teasing, manicures, literally scores of professional photos, dance lessons, singing lessons, costume fittings, performance after performance, rehearsals--the child was SIX YEARS OLD! I cannot imagine how much pressure she lived under."

    There's a reason why hair bleach bottles don't have a warning on them: because the makers don't think anyone will be F'ed up enough to use it on a kid!

    "Yeah, Why Nut, they aren't going to ever talk about evidence which they don't like at the swamp. Why waste time denyingdenyingdenying reality when it's just as easy to ignore it to begin with?"

    They had a good teacher in John Douglas! "Oh, no, don't believe the CASKU guys when they say the crime scene was staged. Believe me, even though they saw the evidence and I didn't and all of my writings say it was!" Moron.

    The RST likes to spin this one into the realm of conspiracy theory: "Oh, the cops conspired to show only RDI evidence to the Feds." Sure. Just how did they think they'd get away with that? Especially since Smitty was RIGHT THERE! And said nothing! The great thing about conspiracy theories like that is that they are unprovable one way or the other, so you'll never convince anyone who believes!

  7. #43
    Join Date
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    New York, NY
    Posts
    755

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Punisher
    The RST likes to spin this one into the realm of conspiracy theory: "Oh, the cops conspired to show only RDI evidence to the Feds." Sure. Just how did they think they'd get away with that? Especially since Smitty was RIGHT THERE! And said nothing! The great thing about conspiracy theories like that is that they are unprovable one way or the other, so you'll never convince anyone who believes!
    I always find that interesting, the theory that BPD investigators conspired to hide all evidence but that which suited only a Ramsey-did-it theory from the FBI and other larger authorities. Like Fed investigators were gullible little children who only believed what they were told? Not likely. Rather, the Federal investigators, being skilled in truly national crime processes, knew what they should see if the case was being conducted as thoroughly as it ought to have been. It is ironic that Margoo is highlighting the findings of a particular study of child abduction murders right now, since part of the advice it offers is exactly what the FBI was in a position to demand from the BPD; show us evidence that is not only unusual about the case, but also the evidence that we would expect to see usually. You cannot hide evidence from investigators who are, due to their vast experience, in a position to know what is being withheld from them.

  8. #44

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    Boy, talk about demoralizing. I have been looking for old files for several projects going on right now, and I just found a truly long thread from my old Purgatory forum days, in January of 2004.

    I need a brain transplant. I do not remember any of this. I remember the information...or some of it...obviously, in this thread, I didn't remember discussing in great detail the big issue of the MISSING SIZE 12/14 PANTIES. It's like I had forgotten it all and now I've found it again, a case resurrection! sigh I've been around this case waaaaaaaaay too long....

    But there are some good things in this thread. Jayelles, you're on it, Jahazafat is the first to bring up that all the panties in the drawer were taken by LE and none were size 12. I seem to have had the size of the panties all mixed up, as 10/12. RTE is in here, and she really is so smart, she's light years ahead of me. It's a good discussion, but long. There are some ideas in here we've done before, no doubt, many times, but it brings in jams' claim that Wood handed the package of 12/14 panties over to Keenan when she took over the investigation, after the Ramsey investigators "found" them in the house.

    Now I don't believe that for a second, and the point is made LE would have made lots of pictures of the bathroom, as well as gone through the drawers systematically. But Wood brings this up in the Thomas deposition, and alas, seems the medical examiner never took a picture of the body with just the underwear. That's bad news. Also, seems LE never investigated the missing panties until Thomas left, which was over a year and a half post murder. That's just not acceptable.

    Well, in the interest of seeing for yourself, I'm going to post this very long thread here and hope none of the other posters nor Keebu object. Read it or not, your call.

    Oh, but in one post of mine, I found links I still have on my old computer to pictures and things I have to hunt for over and over through the years. I hope Why Nut and Jayelles will capture these if they don't have them already.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #45

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    From the good days of Purgatory: January 2004


    JonBenet Ramsey Case - PPP(panty package picture) Previous | Next
    From: JAHAZAFAT Jan-30 9:59 am
    To: ALL (1 of 24)

    1716.1

    I remember seeing a photo that was thought to be a representation of the Bloomingdale's Package. Does anyone have that?
    Thanks.


    From: RTE66 Jan-30 12:43 pm
    To: JAHAZAFAT (2 of 24)

    1716.2 in reply to 1716.1

    I have it somewhere, but will have to look around for it. BBL.




    From: JAHAZAFAT Jan-30 1:11 pm
    To: RTE66 (3 of 24)

    1716.3 in reply to 1716.2


    RTE66, I appreciate you take the time to care...
    I'm trying to verify the package wasn't sealed up like the typical shrink wrap bag rather it had some type of resealable closure. Also if it was made of a material that would have been good to lift fingerprints off of.

    I can't get over the hurdle that there were not any other size 12 panties in the drawer as Patsy attests during the Atlanta 2000 interviews. As a matter of fact there were none collected from the house. Michael Kane empatically states all they found were 15 pairs in size 4-6. Was there ever a package? It's come out from unrelibale sources the Ramsey investigators 'found the package' in the house and LL Wood provided it to the DA. This is too incredible.

    The foreign speck of DNA is all that leans to an intruder. Everything else has been accounted for. I know the Ramseys went out of there way to replace another 'piece' of evidence and think they pulled it off with the panties too.

    The trip to NY where Patsy claims to have purchased this set of panties included two other young girls who could have worn size 12 panties. I'm thinking Patsy borrowed a pair from them.

    Probably doesn't matter. They got away with it. But it's like an incomplete puzzle sitting on the kitchen table, I keep looking.




    From: RTE66 Jan-30 4:22 pm
    To: JAHAZAFAT (4 of 24)

    1716.4 in reply to 1716.3

    I found them, but I have to run right now. For some reason, I can no longer email through Delphi, although I could in the past. The last few times I have tried, I get an "illegal" function message and it closes the window. So, no dice.
    I can email these some other way or put them in a photo album for all to see. It is a zippered bag, like I've described before. Will come back and check in with ya later tonight.



    From: JAHAZAFAT Jan-30 4:46 pm
    To: RTE66 (5 of 24)

    1716.5 in reply to 1716.4

    ~~~~~
    1 Q. The underwear that she was
    2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
    3 know where they come from as far as what
    4 store?
    5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
    6 Q. Who purchased those?
    7 A. I did.
    8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
    9 them?
    10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
    11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
    12 trips did you make to New York?
    13 A. Two, I believe.
    14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the
    15 same, same qualification I gave you when we
    16 started, which is, I understand that you are
    17 not going to give me exact dates, but the
    18 two trips you made, did you make those with
    19 different groups of people?
    20 A. Yes.
    21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip
    22 with?
    23 A. The first trip was a
    24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra
    25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan
    79
    1 F**** from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her
    2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.
    3 K****** I believe was her name, and her
    4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.
    ~~~~~
    Q. They came in, if you recall, do
    5 you remember that they come in kind of a
    6 plastic see-through plastic container.
    7 A. Right.
    8 Q. They are rolled up?
    9 A. Yes.
    ~~~~~
    23 Q. What size underpants would you
    24 normally buy for her?
    25 A. 8 to 10.
    ~~~~~
    11 Q. And I will just state a fact
    12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
    13 taken out of, by the police, out of
    14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
    15 that where she kept -
    16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    17 Q. -- where you were describing that
    18 they were just put in that drawer?
    19 A. Yes.
    20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
    21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
    22 Would that have been about the size pair of
    23 panties that she wore when she was six years
    24 old?
    25 A. I would say more like six to

    94
    1 eight. There were probably some in there
    2 that were too small.
    ~~~~~

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edited 1/30/2004 7:55:03 PM ET by JAHAZAFAT



    From: RTE66 Jan-30 7:01 pm
    To: JAHAZAFAT (6 of 24)

    1716.6 in reply to 1716.5

    Here are the three photos I have of the Bloomie's bloomers sets from a Year 2000 catalog. They are pretty much the same every year and are rolled up in the zippered plastic bag. Whether or not the zippered tote bag is also covered with shrink wrap or a plastic sleeve of some kind when on sale at the store, I don't know.
    1) Click on the photo over the caption that says "Rte66 Album 1" (you can't read all of it, just Rte66 something) to get into the album,

    2) then click on the first photo again to get the larger sized photo,

    3) then click "next" to see the others at the regular larger size (as opposed to thumbnail-size).

    http://photos.yahoo.com/jwr1476@flash.net

    Hope this helps clear it up a little bit for you.



    From: JAYELLES 1:18 am
    To: RTE66 (7 of 24)

    1716.7 in reply to 1716.6

    >>I'm trying to verify the package wasn't sealed up like the typical shrink wrap bag rather it had some type of resealable closure. Also if it was made of a material that would have been good to lift fingerprints off of.



    I bought a pack of these last year during a trip to New York. This is how they come. The zip is secured to a little loop at the 'closed' end by a tag. The clear plastic zipped bag is the outermost wrapping.

    Bloomingdales have piles and piles of Bloomies in their childrenswear department. They are dotted about all over the place and at the paypoints too.



    From: JAHAZAFAT 2:29 am
    To: RTE66 (8 of 24)

    1716.8 in reply to 1716.6

    Thanks. The underwear is the most important piece of evidence.
    PS I wanted to say how glad I am you're still here and able to post after changes in your life. I hope everything is okay and any disruptions have headed you in a new direction for happiness.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edited 1/31/2004 5:37:59 AM ET by JAHAZAFAT




    From: KOLDKASE2 5:28 pm
    To: JAYELLES unread (9 of 24)

    1716.9 in reply to 1716.7

    Jayelles, you said:
    "I bought a pack of these last year during a trip to New York. This is how they come. The zip is secured to a little loop at the 'closed' end by a tag. The clear plastic zipped bag is the outermost wrapping."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    OH, Jayelles, do you realize what this means?

    I know what you are describing: the "loop" which secures the zipper so that the package cannot be opened without cutting the plastic loop/tag. I am assuming the "loop" is plastic, as I have seen other zippers on store merchandise secured this way. It usually also has a tag attached, either a product company tag or price or something.

    These little plastic loops are very hard to break without cutting them. One must use scissors OR A KNIFE to do so without using great strength.

    So what this means is that JonBenet could NOT have opened that package herself, as Patsy said she did.

    This means that someone ELSE opened that package. Perhaps someone using a SWISS ARMY KNIFE? Perhaps someone needing a pair of WEDNESDAY PANTIES?

    And once again, Patsy is caught in a lie regarding the murder of her daughter. Give me one good reason a mother would like to those investigating the murder of her child unless she did not want them to have the truth.



    From: KOLDKASE2 5:31 pm
    To: RTE66 (10 of 24)

    1716.10 in reply to 1716.4

    Thank you, RTE. You are a treasure, you know. I have been keeping up with your journey. You are so courageous. Life is such an adventure, isn't it?



    From: KOLDKASE2 6:08 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 (11 of 24)

    1716.11 in reply to 1716.9

    Here is what Patsy said about the underwear package in the Atlanta 2000 interview. I am editing out some of this section of the interview to contrast what Patsy said at the beginning of this line of questioning with what she later said--she changed her story.
    Also, in this line of questioning, Patsy clearly is trying to minimize the larger size of the panty found on JonBenet. She goes to great lengths to do so. Why? Why would she not just agree that the panties are too large for JonBenet and go on from there? When Patsy is splitting hairs over something that should be trivial, pay attention. I think we now have a possible answer why: if the "Wednesday" panties were the only pair taken from the package, as Jams implies...then when were they taken out and put on and why?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (Questioners are Morrissey, Kane and Levin; witness/Answers are Patsy)

    21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
    22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
    23 understand why she is wearing such a large
    24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
    25 help us if you have a recollection of it.

    84
    1 A. I am sure that I put the package
    2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
    3 them and put them on.
    4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
    5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
    6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
    7 you bought them in November?
    8 A. Right.
    9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
    10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
    11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
    12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
    13 this package of underpants and had been
    14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
    15 November?
    16 A. I don't remember.
    17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
    18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
    19 duties; is that correct?
    20 A. Correct.
    21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
    22 clothes on occasion?
    23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
    24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
    25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?

    85
    1 A. Not specifically.
    2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
    3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
    4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
    5 I will give you a minute to think about it
    6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
    7 down a couple of months of casual
    8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
    9 conversations with her concerning the fact
    10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
    11 too large for her?
    12 A. No.
    13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
    14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
    15 to your attention, do you think you might
    16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
    17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
    18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
    19 had come to your attention --
    20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
    21 package had been opened, we made the
    22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
    23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
    24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
    25 so.

    86
    1 I mean, if you have ever seen
    2 these little panties, there is not too much
    3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
    4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
    5 they were special because we got them up
    6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
    7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
    8 fine with me.
    9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
    10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
    11 THE WITNESS: No.
    12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
    13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
    14 And I am not saying --
    15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
    16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
    17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
    18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
    19 help herself to whatever is in there.
    20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
    21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
    22 Jenny.
    23 THE WITNESS: Right.
    24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
    25 JonBenet's bathroom?

    87
    1 A. Right.
    2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
    3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
    4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
    5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
    6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
    7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
    8 think I bought them with the intention of
    9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
    10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
    11 together, so I just put them in her, her
    12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

    [snip]

    15 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) What do you
    16 do, I mean, when you do that, what do you
    17 think about as far as the person you're
    18 purchasing them for?
    19 A. Well, you just look, small,
    20 medium, large, you know, and you pick the
    21 one you think would most likely fit.
    22 Q. And do they have age groups or
    23 are they suggested for like a 10-year-old
    24 through a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old
    25 through a 15-year-old? Do they do it that

    91
    1 way too?
    2 A. I never paid any attention if
    3 they do.
    4 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.
    5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
    6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
    7 one set of Bloomi's?
    8 A. I can't remember.
    9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
    10 A. I can't remember.

    [snip]

    11 Q. And I will just state a fact
    12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
    13 taken out of, by the police, out of
    14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
    15 that where she kept -
    16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    17 Q. -- where you were describing that
    18 they were just put in that drawer?
    19 A. Yes.
    20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
    21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
    22 Would that have been about the size pair of
    23 panties that she wore when she was six years
    24 old?
    25 A. I would say more like six to

    94
    1 eight. There were probably some in there
    2 that were too small.
    3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
    4 A. Not typically, no.
    5 MR. KANE: Okay.
    6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
    7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
    8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
    9 bring these panties with him, this was
    10 something --
    11 A. Right.
    12 Q. - that was in the house.
    13 A. Yes.
    14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
    15 you know, that is something that was in this
    16 house?
    17 A. Yes.
    18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
    19 these panties?
    20 A. Correct.
    21 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Mrs. Ramsey,
    22 have you ever seen a crime scene photo of
    23 the underwear that your daughter was found
    24 in?
    25 A. No.

    95
    1 Q. Did Lou Schmidt ever show you a
    2 photo?
    3 A. No.

    From: KOLDKASE2 6:16 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 (12 of 24)

    1716.12 in reply to 1716.11

    Continuing with the 2000 Atlanta interview with Patsy: the topic is now JonBenet bathing and dressing herself:
    (again, I'm cutting out parts of Wood arguing over the questions--if you read all this in total, you may notice that every time the questions get hard and to the critical point, Wood jumps in and either stops the question or gives Patsy time and huge hints how to answer)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    4 Q. (By Mr. Kane) I want to follow
    5 up with something you said earlier. You
    6 said she would have just gone in and gotten
    7 a pair herself?
    8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    9 Q. Okay. Was she -- did she usually
    10 dress herself?
    11 A. She was pretty much able to dress
    12 herself.

    [snip]

    102
    19 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Here's a question
    20 that was not asked, Mrs. Ramsey. Did you
    21 dress JonBenet Christmas Day?
    22 A. I can't remember.
    23 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, do
    24 you know whether or not she changed her
    25 underwear Christmas Day?
    103
    1 A. I don't know.
    2 Q. We are going to assume the fact
    3 that she did not take a bath because you
    4 previously stated that. Would she change her
    5 underwear if she didn't take a bath on
    6 Christmas Day?

    [Wood protests again...snip]

    12 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Do you know if
    13 she changed her underwear?
    14 A. I do not know.
    15 Q. Would it be her routine habit or
    16 practice, if she is going out for dinner at
    17 friends, for her to change from head to toe,
    18 including her underwear, getting dressed to
    19 go out for the evening, even if she didn't
    20 take a bath?
    21 A. I don't know that there is any
    22 particular routine. She may have. I don't
    23 know.
    24 Q. If she listened to mom, would she
    25 have done that? I mean, we are going out,

    105
    1 you change from head to toe, wash up?
    2 MR. WOOD: You are saying if she
    3 had said that?
    4 MR. LEVIN: No. I am saying,
    5 this child was raised by Mrs. Ramsey, and I
    6 am assuming that, in the course of your
    7 raising your child, that it was JonBenet, we
    8 are going out, even if she hadn't taken a
    9 bath, you wash up, you change your clothes,
    10 and that would include if she hasn't bathed,
    11 change your underwear because she is running
    12 around and playing all day.
    13 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
    14 is what you do with your children?
    15 MR. LEVIN: No. I am asking
    16 her.
    17 THE WITNESS: I don't, I don't
    18 remember the course of events --
    19 MR. LEVIN: Okay.
    20 THE WITNESS: - really.
    21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) So you just don't
    22 know whether or not she changed her
    23 underpants?
    24 A. I don't know.




    From: KOLDKASE2 6:51 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 (13 of 24)

    1716.13 in reply to 1716.12

    In her April 30, 1997, interview with Steve Thomas, here is what Patsy said about JonBenet getting dressed to go to the White's that night:
    ("JonBenet: The Police Files"; p.44)

    "I just remember I was trying to get clothes ready for four people to go in two different places...and the kids were playing, then I, you know, got them dressed and then we, they were in play clothes and so we changed and got cleaned up to go over there...and I think I colored my hair."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    June, 1998, interview, Patsy tells Tom Haney:

    (JonBenet: The Police Files"; p. 190)

    TH: Getting her ready that early afternoon, four or five o'clock, did you give her a bath, did she take a bath?

    PR: I don't think so.

    TH: You don't think you gave her one?

    PR: Huh uh.

    TH: Do you think she took one?

    PR: No, she didn't take one....

    TH: Showers?

    PR: Huh uh.





    From: KOLDKASE2 7:11 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 (14 of 24)

    1716.14 in reply to 1716.13

    Continuing in the June, 1998, interviews, Patsy talks about what JonBenet wore to bed Christmas Eve. Remember the little pink top that is seen on her bed in the crime scene pictures? We have all wondered about that top. It seems to me that Patsy is saying that top was kept under JonBenet's pillow...but Patsy could not find the PINK PJ BOTTOMS that went with it on Christmas Night...so she got the while long johns out.
    Does anyone know where those PINK PJ BOTTOMS WENT?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (IBID, p. 213; shown a picture of the Barbie nightgown found next to JonBenet's body, Patsy is questioned about it)

    TH: When would she have worn that last, do you know?

    PR: Well, she didn't wear it that night, because she had her--she had the long underwear pants and her little white shirt. And the night before on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little...that was under her pillow. And before that I don't remember. But neither of those two nights she wore that.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (Ibid, p.215)

    TH: Patsy, why the long underwear?

    PR: Well, I remember I was digging around for something. I was trying to find the pink ones she wore the night before. I couldn't put my hand on them right quick. And so I went to these drawers looking for the pajamas, and she was just laying there, so I didn't want to raise her up and get everything off of her to put a long nightgown, so looking for pajamas bottoms to put on her. I couldn't find any, and the long underwear pants were in their drawer, so I got those.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    So where did the pj bottoms go that went with the top she had on in the Christmas morning photos, apparently the same one photographed on her bed in the crime scene photos? Did LE get them? Find them in the room, in the floor, in the laundry...in the black bag of clothes Patsy was rinsing out that morning outside JB's bedroom to take to Charlevoix...before she found the ransom note?





    From: KOLDKASE2 7:33 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 (15 of 24)

    1716.15 in reply to 1716.14

    More from Patsy in the June, 1998 interview on the clothes JonBenet wore the last day of her life; notice Patsy says, when asked about the pants left in the bathroom floor, Jonbenet could have left them there and then "...gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's...." Is that a typo?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (Ibid, pp. 228-29)

    TH: ...How about (Photo) 378?

    PR: This is JonBenet's floor, her pants.

    TH: Do you recall those particular pants, when she would have worn those last?

    PR: Not for sure. Probably recently because they are dropped in the middle of the floor, but I don't remember exactly.

    TH: They are kind of inside out.

    PR: Right.

    TH: 379 is a close up of it. It appears they are stained.

    PR: Right.

    TH: Is that something that JonBenet had a problem with?

    PR: Well she, you know, she was at the age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.

    TH: Did she have accidents, if you will, in the course of the day or night, as opposed to just bedwetting?

    PR: Not usually, no, huh uh. That would probably be more from just not wiping real well.

    TH: On Christmas Day were you in that bathroom at all?

    PR: Very likely, but I can't say for sure.

    TH: Had you been in there that day, would you have done something with them?

    PR: Well, I got, you know--that night I got--I know I got the long johns for her out of that bathroom.

    TH: Right, out of one of the drawers in there.

    PR: Yeah.

    TH: Do you recall seeing those on the floor that night when you got the--

    PR: No...they could have been there. I don't know.

    TH: Is it possible that some point during the night she would have gotten up and put those on or thrown them down there or changed in some way, trying to account for those being there?

    PR: I just -- I can't imagine that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out asleep, so I put her to bed...she had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's. What she had on earlier that day, I just can't remember. It might have been those. I just can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know, gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left them there.

    TH: When she was our riding her bike, do you remember, think back, look back at what she was wearing?

    PR: Can't remember.

    PR:





    From: RTE66 8:35 pm
    To: JAHAZAFAT unread (16 of 24)

    1716.16 in reply to 1716.8

    Thank you for the good thoughts, Jahazafat. Hope school is going well for you, too.
    Yes, the underwear and its clues are very important. I'm confused about where the rest of the size 12-14 Bloomies were. Was Mike Kane saying that there were NO other panties that size found in JonBenet's bathroom panty drawer--that all they found among the 15 pairs in evidence were all size 4-6's?

    Did CAP take the rest of the Bloomie's package with her "for the funeral"?





    From: KOLDKASE2 8:37 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 (17 of 24)

    1716.17 in reply to 1716.15

    The topic of Christmas Day is skimmed pretty cursively in the Ramsey's book, "DOI." In fact, John gives an account of JonBenet getting ready to go to the White's that day after playing that afternoon, and he seems to be much more informed that Patsy about what happened and what JonBenet wore. How is that? Patsy is the one who had the disagreement with JonBenet over what to wear.
    ("Death of Innocence": p. 7)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "When I returned home in the afternoon, JonBenet and Burke were playing outside with the neighborhood gang. Soon Patsy called for the kids to come in to clean up a little before the party. She wanted JonBenet to wear a red turtleneck with her black velvet pants so that mother and daughter would be dressed alike, but JonBenet wanted to wear the complete outfit she'd chosen. Mom gave in. JonBenet put on her outfit with her black boots, which zipped up the front and had a bit of animal print trim along the top. JonBenet loved to dress up. Burke could care less."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Here are some excerpts from John's June, 1998, interview with Lou Smit and Michael Kane. Either John has been well informed about JonBenet's bathroom drawers after the murder, or he seemed to know his way around them pretty well for someone who had no idea JonBenet had a bedwetting problem.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (From JonBenet: The Police Files; pp. 353-354)

    MK: ...There was a nightgown that was found down in the wine cellar (the pink Barbie nightgown that was wrapped up in the blanket covering JonBenet).

    JR: I have heard about that...I had never seen that. I didn't see it when (I) was down (there)...sounds very bizarre. I don't know why that would be there....

    MK: Could have been brought down in the blanket?

    JR: I suppose, I don't know....

    LS: ...We have heard that a Barbie nightgown was one of her favorite nightgowns. What can you tell us about that?

    JR: I think she had a Barbie nightgown. Yeah, as I recall. Pink, maybe.

    LS: The night you put her in bed, do you remember anything about a Barbie nightgown?

    JR: ...When I laid her down in the bed she had on what she had worn to the Whites. She had that same shirt on when I found her.

    LS: What I am trying to say, John, is where would that Barbie nightgown have been?

    JR: It would have either been in her bathroom drawer here, where a lot of them were kept...by the sink, I believe. It could have been on the floor, or it would have been in the washing machine. That's probably only three places it would have been.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    From: KOLDKASE2 8:43 pm
    To: RTE66 (18 of 24)

    1716.18 in reply to 1716.16

    Jams says the Ramsey investigators found the Bloomies package with the remaining panties in it in JonBenet's drawer. She says the BPD did not take it, and she says the Rams' investigators kept it, gave it to Lin Wood at some point, and he gave it to Keenan when she took the case away from the BPD.
    The number of pairs of panties remaining in the package is not stated clearly. Since the chain of custody of the panties was broken when they were removed from the drawer/house by non-LE investigators and kept privately for years, it's a moot point for evidence, as anyone could have done anything with those panties...if, in fact, what Jams says is true. I wouldn't place any bets....



    From: RTE66 8:45 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 (19 of 24)

    1716.19 in reply to 1716.10

    *Blush* YOU're the one who takes the time to say things about this case that I wish I could still "get it up" for. And yeah, we're all trudging the Happy Road of Life--some more than others.
    *Somewhat obscure musical reference here, to high roads and low roads*
    ... And Jayelles got to Scotland a-fore us ...




    From: RTE66 8:57 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 (20 of 24)

    1716.20 in reply to 1716.18

    That's ridiculous! Why would the investigators have access to those? Grrrr. And which of JonBenet's "drawers" were they in? In her bedroom in the chest of drawers or in the bathroom, where Patsy said JBR's "panty drawer" was?
    Yes, I saw where the swampmeister talked recently about "releasing more case documents" to the public from her private stash. Why doesn't someone just arrest that creepola?

    ~~~~~~
    Edited to add a PS

    PS .. Good point about the missing pink jammy bottoms. My first bet would have been the upstairs dryer or maybe the downstairs one. And did we ever figure out what the black article of clothing on the "other bed" from JBR's was, with all its multi-colored sections? I thought it was the vest they loaned to Ariana for the 12/23 party, but I'm not sure we've ever figured that out for sure.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edited 2/1/2004 12:08:28 AM ET by RTE66


    From: KOLDKASE2 9:04 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 (21 of 24)

    1716.21 in reply to 1716.17

    And finally, a couple more choice quotes from John's June, 1998, interview, and then I'm going back to my padded cell for another couple of weeks of R&R. Other forums feel free to take these interview quotes to other forums for discussion if interested. I posted them here because I think the clothing issues surrounding JonBenet's murder are significant in figuring out what happened to her that night.
    From John, again, an interesting thought he had that he didn't complete...TWICE. Melinda wet the bed later than whom, John?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (Ibid; pp. 356-57)

    [discussing JonBenet's bedwetting]

    MK: You said that you thought, I think you said all the kids had that. Did Burke have that [plastic mattress cover] on his bed?

    JR: Oh, he's had it I am sure, yes. But I don't remember whether he did, you know, then or not. But...for us...it's so ridiculous. I mean it's just...not an issue for us as a family. I mean, Melinda wet her bed until she was older than, I don't remember how old, but it was older than -- if anybody had a bedwetting problem, you would have said maybe it was Melinda, because it went longer, but it was....

    MK: But this is the first one that Patsy had to deal with?

    JR: I mean, Burke probably did, too. No, Burke did, I know he did.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    And finally, anybody have any ideas about Patsy's multicolored sweater found in JonBenet's bed room, seen and identified by John as Patsy's in a crime scene photo?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (Ibid; p.375)

    (John is asked by Smit to look at the multicolored sweater in the crime scene photo of JonBenet's room.)

    LS: For instance, what is this multicolored...

    JR: Well, I think it's a sweater of Patsy's but...

    LS: ...Is that a sweater that Patsy normally...

    JR: Well, it looks kind of like one of the sweaters...I am pretty sure that's Patsy's sweater...

    LS: Do you remember when the last time that was that Patsy wore that or anything?

    JR: No, I really don't.



    From: KOLDKASE2 9:10 pm
    To: RTE66 (22 of 24)

    1716.22 in reply to 1716.19

    Oh, I understand "running out of gas." I'm in the final lap, myself, I'm afraid. It's all moot at this point, anyhow. If not for the swampsters and Ramsey shills pi$$ing me off, I don't think I'd ever have the blood pressure to support all this reading and typing anymore.
    Guess Jams is good for something after all....




    From: KOLDKASE2 9:12 pm
    To: RTE66 (23 of 24)

    1716.23 in reply to 1716.20

    Ah, about the black, multicolored item on the other bed...read my next post after yours. You just answered my question and I answered yours. LOL



    From: RTE66 9:16 pm
    To: KOLDKASE2 unread (24 of 24)

    1716.24 in reply to 1716.21

    Ha ha. Jinx or spediddley or "gmta" or make-a-wish! I had just posted about this piece of clothing in the PS I just finished editing into my above post! LOL.
    My fave John quote of this interview series was when he was asked about JBR's underwear and whether she was actually wearing any when she came home from the Whites. John, who claimed to have only taken off her coat and her shoes when readying her for bed, said he would have "surely noticed if she hadn't been wearing any panties." (You know, by whether there was panty line visible through her black velvet slacks or not, of course.) Way to give yourself away, JR!


    From: JAYELLES Feb-1 3:51 am
    To: KOLDKASE2 (25 of 40)

    1716.25 in reply to 1716.18

    You are correct about the plastic thing securing the zip. It does require to be incised open. I am very bad and tend to bite them open if scissors aren't readily to hand but my Tootsie will always bring them to me and ask me to remove them - she's 4.


    From: JAHAZAFAT Feb-1 7:46 am
    To: RTE66 (26 of 40)

    1716.26 in reply to 1716.20

    There was only one pair of size 12 panties found in that home and they were on a dead body. The underwear drawer was emptied. Investigators didn't go instinctively to one drawer but systematically through them all. They knew what panties were found on her lifeless body and any related evidence would have been seized, if it existed. IMO this proves there was no package BEFORE the murder.

    That old theory that a pair was borrowed from another child fits more with the evidence and the interview. That trip to NY included two other girls from Charlevoix, perhaps one of them wore size 12 panties and JonBenet had an accident so Pasty got a pair from one of them. Notice Patsy conveniently can't remember their names. We've never read of them being interviewed, deposed, or swabbed as donation suspects. Let alone borrowing a pair at a pageant, never heard a peep of any inquiry into those panties being borrowed at a pageant. They swabbed Daphne, Arianna, and some neighborhood girls.

    IMO there never was a package BEFORE the murder. If the Ramseys covered their tracks by replacing a doll after the murder they also are cunning enough to have gotten a package of panties to prove they were new, and thus the foreign deposit was related to the murder. It was just happenstance luck for the Ramseys that there was foreign DNA in the panties and they ran with it.

    I guarantee the package of panties, just like the AG doll, is lacking something vital, little smudgy fingerprints from a 6-year-old. Boulder is too corrupt to delve into the dolls and they've spent a fortune DNA testing underwear when good ole' fashioned fingerprints, or their absence, is key.




    From: RTE66 Feb-1 5:43 pm
    To: JAHAZAFAT (27 of 40)

    1716.27 in reply to 1716.26

    Well, I thought it was LHP who had actually seen the package. Oops, I gotta come back. My friends' granddaughter is dancing in the intro part of the Super Bowl, instead of half-time, and it's starting. BBL.




    From: JAHAZAFAT Feb-1 5:57 pm
    To: RTE66 (28 of 40)

    1716.28 in reply to 1716.27


    I think LHP only verified, or was quoted in a newspaper interview; JonBenet's panties were kept in a drawer in the bathroom. I'll check my info too.
    Enjoy the game, I'll bewatching for the commercials and likely will gain 5 pounds with all the crap we have laid out.




    From: JAHAZAFAT Feb-2 3:57 pm
    To: JAHAZAFAT (29 of 40)

    1716.29 in reply to 1716.28

    http://www.enyart.com/news/jonbenet102999.shtml
    Upon viewing the body, Patsy exclaimed that she had never before seen the underwear on her daughter's corpse. Detectives later found out that Patsy had recently purchased that pair of underwear at Bloomingdales in New York for her 12-year-old niece, but that JonBenet begged to have it kept for her, so Patsy kept it for her. Prior to the murder, even by friends of the family knew of this underwear story. If Patsy did recognize the distinctive underwear, and was lying, then she was trying to point the police to the exculpatory evidence, which she knew had been planted.

    Never heard this story!!



    Options Reply




    From: JAHAZAFAT Feb-2 4:00 pm
    To: JAHAZAFAT (30 of 40)

    1716.30 in reply to 1716.29

    http://www.nationalenquirer.com/stor...nstanceid=5447
    Yet another damning piece of evidence against Patsy was the panties JonBenet was wearing when her body was found.
    They were printed with the word "Wednesday," the day on which Christmas Day fell in 1996. But they were a size 12 -- not JonBenet's size 6.
    "Patsy told friends that she bought a set of 'day-of-the-week' panties for JonBenet and another set for an older niece," the insider revealed. "But JonBenet insisted on keeping both sets.
    "Police believe JonBenet wore her regular 'Wednesday' panties on Christmas Day, but after the murder they were urine-stained.
    "They think the little girl was re-dressed in the bigger panties after she was killed."
    During a May 20 interview with investigators, the Ramseys' housekeeper Linda Hoffmann- Pugh "told them the larger panties were kept in a drawer and had never been taken out of their packaging before Christmas," said the insider.
    "If a stranger had killed JonBenet, it would have been impossible for him to know where to find the panties." And no intruder would open a fresh pack of panties to put on the victim, cops say.

    This confirms what you have said but I'm leary of any 'insider' sources after listening to jameson and mame for so many years.





    From: JAHAZAFAT Feb-2 4:02 pm
    To: JAHAZAFAT (31 of 40)

    1716.31 in reply to 1716.30


    LHP excerpts from PMPT
    “These weren't naughty children. They dressed themselves, and Patsy did JonBenet's hair. All her daughter's clothes were organized in drawers. Turtlenecks in one drawer, pants in another, nighties and panties in one, socks in another. Dates on all their underclothes.”

    “Michael Kane, Levin, and Harmer went to see Linda Hoffman-Pugh at her home in Fort Lupton. H-P was worried they were going to subpoena her for the grand jury. Instead, they brought with them books of photographs. For 3 hours, H-P was asked about the photographs, taken inside the Ramseys' house shortly after the murder, depicting furniture, clothing, and household objects.

    First, H-P was asked about JonBenet's bedroom. The photos showed everything from her beds to her bedding, her TV, her videotapes, and her shoes. She was asked about the many hair ties scattered on the floor at the foot of the bed and in front of the closet. H-P said that wasn't normal. The ties were usually kept in a basket in the bathroom. Maybe one or two would be lying on the bathroom counter, but they were never on the floor, or even in the bedroom.

    Then there was an open drawer. The housekeeper confirmed it was the drawer where JBR's panties were kept.





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    From: RTE66 Feb-2 6:05 pm
    To: IVORYTOWER (33 of 40)

    1716.33 in reply to 1716.32

    Exactly. Suppose she had had on "any old pair" of underwear all day on Christmas Day--makes it even more significant that the Wednesday Bloomies were put on her "afterward." Had to be Bloomies, whether the originals were or weren't; had to be Wednesday's pair.
    I really don't think JonBenet could have distinguished "Wednesday" at that point in her underdeveloped reading skills. Maybe, but I'm still inclined to think not. I pointed out once that it is a longer word than MOST of the days, which makes it stand out, but Saturday is almost as long. Did she know the order of the days of the week and did she know which day the panty rolls started with, chronologically, in the plastic tote bag?

    Also, if the 1996 versions were like the 2000 versions, the days are written in script, not in printing, so could JonBenet read that? I don't think so. Had she put on the size 6 version earlier in the day, herself? I don't think so, for those same reasons.

    If the size 12 package had never been opened before that day/night, which we don't know now, then I truly don't believe JBR knew the appropriate pair to put on.

    The missing package IS huge--and I honestly didn't realize it was missing until this discussion. I just *assumed* BPD had it all this time. LHP said the package was in a drawer--a separate place from JBR's usual panty drawer.

    I'm going to assume that's true, but it would be interesting to know whether or not they had been taken out of that drawer in the preceding day or two and put with the gifts that were to be wrapped or to be taken to Charlevoix. I think that niece either lived in Atlanta (wasn't it Polly's dtr?) or WV (Nedra's side of the family's dtr). Maybe they had been put with the other gifts, but overlooked in Patsy's hurried wrapping for mailing to ATL.

    Grrr. I guess we'll never know exactly *where* the package was found. And may not ever find out how many of the size 6 panties had been taken from their package--or if they were ever opened or worn. LOL if all of them were still there in the pkg except the Wednesday pair, which was all worn-out and ragged from too many washings--then we'd find out that JBR liked the Wednesday ones best because of the color of the flowers or the Bloomie's writing or something.




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    From: JAHAZAFAT Feb-2 7:56 pm
    To: IVORYTOWER (35 of 40)

    1716.35 in reply to 1716.34

    It's a stumper.
    Patsy can't remember if she bought a package in JonBenet's size.
    She states the 12s were in the regular panty drawer not seperated as LHP is quoted.
    What other drawer was it, LHP didn't specify, and LHP says the pjs and underwear were together which doesn't seem right as the drawers were small.
    Patsy doesn't know if she washed them or not, they were free game.

    It's comforting to know there are photographs and that, what must be surreal, video shot the 26th.

    If the package ever existed, there is one way the Ramseys could have gotten the package after that ten day official investigation... and that would be if somebody inside the investigation had helped them.

    C-O-N-S-P-I-R-A-C-Y





    From: RTE66 Feb-2 9:03 pm
    To: JAHAZAFAT (36 of 40)

    1716.36 in reply to 1716.35

    I don't think the panties and pj's were together in the same place at all.
    The panty drawer was reportedly in the bathroom. When Patsy talked about getting the thermal underwear out to put on JonBenet (the longjohns she had on when "found"), she said in the Katie Couric DOI interview (I think it was) that she was fumbling around in the dark and rifling through the pajama drawer, right there next to JBR's bed, feeling around and trying to find some kind of bottoms to put on her. I took that to probably mean the "Tiffany's" chest of drawers seen in the crime scene photos.




    From: KOLDKASE2 6:42 am
    To: RTE66 unread (37 of 40)

    1716.37 in reply to 1716.36

    OK, good questions and discussion about this, which has me extremely interested in what we DON'T know....
    OK, what we DO know is that JonBenet was found in size 10-12 Wednesday panties too large for her. Those panties had blood and urine stains in them that did not have corresponding fluids dried on her body in that area. She had obviously been wiped in that area by something dark, fibers said by LE in the Atlanta interviews to be consistent with those of John's shirt he sent to LE a year later to be tested. Then the panties had to be put on or pulled up, after the wipe down.

    What we have heard various versions of: that Patsy bought two packages of Bloomies panties, one for JonBenet and one for Jenny. Now we are unsure of that purchase of the package bought for JonBenet, and not really sure if there was a package bought for Jenny, as Jams has stated several times now that the Ramseys had possession of that "package" through their investigators and LE never had it at all. That leaves open the possibility that there never was a package at all. Perhaps LE has a picture of such a package in the drawer they took at the crime scene that morning, but we really don't know that, it seems now. I don't see where LE mentions a package at all except to ask about the larger panties on JonBenet and to ask Patsy about her purchase of these in NY. Am I missing this?

    Patsy is asked and says she bought one package of 10-12 Bloomies panties for her niece, which she first says JonBenet opened in the bathroom and then skips over that and says she put the underwear in JonBenet's drawer herself. Those questioning her are not clear, either, and she seems to be too slippery to clarify much on this, as she changes her story and doesn't remember much of anything.

    (All quotes of Patsy from the Atlanta 2000 interview

    84
    1 A. I am sure that I put the package
    2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
    3 them and put them on.

    23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
    24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
    25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?

    85
    1 A. Not specifically.

    20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
    21 package had been opened, we made the
    22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
    23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
    24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
    25 so.

    86
    1 I mean, if you have ever seen
    2 these little panties, there is not too much
    3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
    4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
    5 they were special because we got them up
    6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
    7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
    8 fine with me.

    15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
    16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
    17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
    18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
    19 help herself to whatever is in there.
    20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
    21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
    22 Jenny.
    23 THE WITNESS: Right.
    24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
    25 JonBenet's bathroom?

    87
    1 A. Right.
    2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
    3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
    4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
    5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
    6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
    7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
    8 think I bought them with the intention of
    9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
    10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
    11 together, so I just put them in her, her
    12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

    5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
    6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
    7 one set of Bloomi's?
    8 A. I can't remember.
    9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
    10 A. I can't remember.

    14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
    15 you know, that is something that was in this
    16 house?
    17 A. Yes.
    18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
    19 these panties?
    20 A. Correct.


    From: KOLDKASE2 7:17 am
    To: RTE66 unread (38 of 40)

    1716.38 in reply to 1716.36

    OK, the drawers left open are important, I believe. We know that in the 1998 interview of Patsy, they ask her about an open drawer in a picture. I thought it was the one in the bedroom, but now I wonder if it's not the one in the bathroom. I can't remember so I guess I'll have to look it up.
    But remember that there were open drawers left in JAR's bathroom, too. Smit attributed those to the intruder, but it seems to me anyone looking at a pattern of behavior would see that Patsy is the one who admits leaving drawers open.

    Patsy says she was hunting around for JB's pj bottoms and couldn't find them, so she got the long john bottoms out. She specifically mentions the PINK pj top being kept under JB's PILLOW. Remember that pillow ended up at the bottom of the bed, and the PINK PJ TOP which JonBenet wore Christmas morning and is seen wearing in the Christmas pic of her at the tree with presents is also seen at the top of JonBenet's bed.

    So...WHERE ARE THE PINK PJ BOTTOMS? Does anyone know? Does LE know? Is this one of those missing pieces of the evidence we haven't been privy to know? Because if those pink bottoms are missing...WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?

    Consider this: JonBenet went to bed in those pink pjs Christmas night. Something happened that caused those bottoms and the panties she had on to disappear. Where'd they go? Was that why Patsy said she went and rinsed out a few things to pack in black plastic bags to take to Charlevoix? Was she hiding evidence in that bag? Was she afraid LE had evidence she was in that laundry area, or would notice the missing clothes?

    Where are the pink bottoms? I ask because Patsy herself STOPPED when she came to the part about the pink top on the bed...tried to skew the focus away from those pink pj bottoms she couldn't find by skipping quickly to going for the long johns in the drawer. When Patsy starts stuttering...she's covering something up. Best to notice this, because this is what she wants hidden.

    Patsy said in the 1998 interview:

    (IBID, p. 213; shown a picture of the Barbie nightgown found next to JonBenet's body, Patsy is questioned about it)

    TH: When would she have worn that last, do you know?

    PR: Well, she didn't wear it that night, because she had her--she had the long underwear pants and her little white shirt. And the night before on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little...that was under her pillow. And before that I don't remember. But neither of those two nights she wore that.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (Ibid, p.215)

    TH: Patsy, why the long underwear?

    PR: Well, I remember I was digging around for something. I was trying to find the pink ones she wore the night before. I couldn't put my hand on them right quick. And so I went to these drawers looking for the pajamas, and she was just laying there, so I didn't want to raise her up and get everything off of her to put a long nightgown, so looking for pajamas bottoms to put on her. I couldn't find any, and the long underwear pants were in their drawer, so I got those.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Here are some picture links to the crime scene photos of JonBenet's bed (thanks ACR). Notice the pink top lying there. Did LE ever ask Patsy about the matching bottoms? They ask her about some brown pants and panties found in the bathroom floor. Were the pink bottoms ever located?

    Also, according to John that is Patsy's sweater lying on the bed at the bottom, the multicolored one.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/002jonbenetbed.jpg

    http://www.acandyrose.com/003jonbenetbed.jpg

    http://www.acandyrose.com/000jonbenetsbedroom.jpg

    And here is the page I got these from at ACR's site, an excellent page with various pics and quotes from many sources:

    http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-discovery.htm



    From: KOLDKASE2 9:29 am
    To: KOLDKASE2


    OK, here are the comments Jams has made about the panties. Since she swears she knows all, any truth to any of this?

    Because if there is, I think it's fair to say that sometime on that Wednesday or Wednesday night, JonBenet put on those panties...or someone else put them on her. The others were NOT taken out of the package, according to Jams, so just WHEN DID PATSY AND "WE" DECIDE TO USE THE PANTIES FROM THE PACKAGE?

    Jams says:

    jameson
    Charter Member
    13618 posts Nov-07-03, 10:50 PM (EST)

    12. "RE: I didn't know,,,,,"
    In response to message #11

    Evening - the answers to your questions are coming up, I think. Later in Patsy's interview.

    As for the rest of the panties - they were still inthe package. the police did not take them in as evidence - the Ramsey investigators did, however.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Patsy says:

    84
    1 A. I am sure that I put the package
    2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
    3 them and put them on.
    4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
    5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
    6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
    7 you bought them in November?
    8 A. Right.
    9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
    10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
    11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
    12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
    13 this package of underpants and had been
    14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
    15 November?
    16 A. I don't remember.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Clearly LE on that day in Atlanta did not know how many pairs of panties had been taken out of the package and used. Patsy wasn't enlightening them, either, was she? I think Jams is telling the truth about this: LE did not have the panty package and the other pairs of panties from them. Did they have a crime scene picture of them still in the package? I don't know. If they could see them still neatly packaged in a picture, seems they could easily deduce that the panties had never been removed and washed.

    But LHP is reported to have said the package was in JonBenet's drawer, unopened.

    So if the only pair taken out of the package was the Wednesday pair, and if Patsy clearly states that JonBenet opened them...and JonBenet had them on when found murdered Thursday...and they were Wednesday panties, and none of the others had been taken from the package or washed...we can draw some conclusions:

    The Wednesday panties had not been washed before they were put on JonBenet.

    The Wednesday panties were most likely put on that Wednesday, Christmas Day. Why would a person put on Wednesday panties on Tuesday, as Jams also has stated that we "know" that JonBenet had a bath before going to church Christmas Eve. (I've forgotten this reference, or is Jams just making that up?)

    JonBenet did not have a bath on Christmas Day, as Patsy said in a police interview, possibly the one with Thomas. Patsy said in the Thomas interview that she got the kids dressed to go to the Whites, out of their playclothes. So when did JonBenet put on the Wednesday panties? Patsy said JonBenet opened the package herself, though the plastic loop securing the package means most likely someone older opened them for JonBenet. Patsy said she put the panty package in JonBenet's bathroom, drawer. And Patsy said something else very curious:

    20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
    21 package had been opened, we made the
    22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
    23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
    24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
    25 so.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Notice again how Patsy stammers and stutters and changes from active voice to passive voice, which is classic distancing: "...obviously we...the package had been opened...we made the decision....just go ahead and use them...."

    Who is "we"? Patsy and JonBenet? Well, if "the package had been opened," who opened it? Earlier, Patsy said JonBenet opened it. Now she's fudging on that. Why?

    OK, then, follow me here if you can: If JonBenet put those Wednesday panties on ON WEDNESDAY, Christmas Day, when did "WE DECIDE" to just go ahead and use them. In the sequence Patsy lays it out as: 1. the package had been opened; 2. "WE" decided to go ahead and use them; 3. because we weren't going to give them to Jenny after all.

    When was this decision to use these panties made? Seems very clear to me: only the Wednesday panties were used and they were still on JonBenet; Patsy said she obviously didn't get them together to send off for Christmas, so she decided to let JonBenet have them--and it was Christmas Day when JonBenet/whomever opened them, so that decision must have been made at least within a week of being opened, otherwise, why didn't Patsy think she could get the gift package together and in the mail?

    Where I'm going is this: Patsy remembered allowing JonBenet to have the panties, she remembered deciding she wasn't going to get them to Jenny for Christmas, she remembered a lot...except when they were actually opened and got onto JonBenet. Why? It's clear to me they were opened at least by the time JonBenet had her bath for Christmas Eve services, if you can imagine that they put the Wednesday panties on in anticipation of the next day being Christmas and JonBenet wearing them that day...assuming she didn't have an "accident." But if they were put on Christmas Day, which was Wednesday and logical, and Patsy and JonBenet had the discussion which resulted in "we decided" to let her have them, then the logical time that happened was when JonBenet was either getting out of her pjs into play clothes or out of play clothes and into the clothes she wore to the Whites.

    OK, I'm sorry this is so long, but I'm thinking this through and I just have to keep going or I may lose my train of thought.

    If the panties were put on to go to the Whites, Patsy says she doesn't remember. But in DOI they clearly remember that Patsy and JonBenet had a disagreement about what JonBenet would wear to the Whites. Patsy also told Thomas that she got the kids dressed to go to the Whites. So why can't Patsy remember if she and JonBenet "DECIDED" to open the large panty package that day? She says she clearly remembers JonBenet opened the package. But she won't commit to when that was.

    Why is this? It's not logical. She remembers that "we" made a decision to let JonBenet have them, she remembers WHY she decided that, as she remembers that she didn't get them to Jenny as planned, she remembers JonBenet opened the package, so the decision was that "obviously" they weren't going to give them to Jenny, either because it was now opened or because JonBenet had the panties on. This all surely happened either on Christmas Eve or, more likely, Christmas Day...when Patsy remembers having 3 black suitcases she's packing for various trips, when she remembers wrapping presents to take to Charlevoix, when she remembers dying her hair, when she remembers JonBenet and Burke and other kids playing in Burke's room and outside in the hall, she remembers making jewelry with JonBenet in that hall...but she can't remember WHEN she and/or JonBenet cut that package loop and opened the package of panties meant for someone else, and JonBenet put on those panties.

    I don't believe it. There has to be a reason Patsy conveniently forgets something as critical as when those panties were opened and put on by JonBenet. It appears to me that she doesn't want to be pinned down because she knows there is something incriminating associated with those panties.

    Edited 2/3/2004 9:50:39 AM ET by KOLDKASE2




    From: KOLDKASE2 9:39 am
    To: KOLDKASE2 (40 of 40)

    1716.40 in reply to 1716.38

    And here, I believe, in Thomas' depo from the Wolf suit, we can see from Wood's questions and Thomas' answers that nobody was looking at the origin of those panties or what happened to the remaining package too closely for the first 18 months, at least:
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (Wood is Q. I assume and Thomas is A.)

    Q. Was there any decision made or conclusion drawn, perhaps is the better way to say it, that you're
    aware of, from any source, as to whether the panties that JonBenet Ramsey was found in had been
    worn and washed in the past or were new, in effect, fresh out of the package?

    A. I believe that was after my departure that that underwear investigation took place.

    Q. So, again, the state of the evidence with respect to that issue, you do not know, true?

    A. Right.

    Q. So, again, the state of the evidence with respect to that issue, you do not know, true?

    A. Right.

    Q. Do you know whether there were any autopsy photos that showed JonBenet from the standpoint
    of being able to look at it to see whether or not the panties, not the other articles of clothing, but the
    panties, fit her or whether they were obviously not a correct fit?

    A. It's my belief from detective briefings that they were referred to as oversized floral panties.

    Q. Thank you. Were there any autopsy photos is my question?

    A. Without the long-john over pants covering the underwear, I don't recall seeing any autopsy photos
    of just the child in her underpants.


    From: KOLDKASE2 10:14 am
    To: KOLDKASE2 (41 of 41)

    1716.41 in reply to 1716.40

    OK, this is about all I can do with this, so that's the good news....

    If the pink pj bottoms are missing, which I have never even seen them discussed much, so I don't know, but if they are missing, then this may be the key to why JonBenet is wearing those Wednesday panties.

    Suppose that JonBenet went to bed in her pink pjs--which is why the top is still on the bed in the crime scene photos. Suppose that something happened...pick your favorite scenario...that caused the killer to take those pjs off of her. (The top was discarded and forgotten in the disarray of the bed.) Why did the pink pj bottoms vanish? If the bottoms are missing, that would indicate that the killer did not want LE to find evidence in them. Urine? Blood? The panties JonBenet had on would also have disappeared with the pink pj bottoms in that case.

    So the killer needs panties to put on JonBenet, along with the long johns and white top. For the sake of discussion, consider the idea that JonBenet was known to wear day of the week panties, as I have thought for years (erroneously maybe, since Jahazafat found the source of this to be a tabloid, but I believe LHP was the person I thought stated this). The killer has to know this or why not just pull out any panties in the drawer? Why OPEN a package of Bloomies and pick Wednesday panties?

    All I can think of is because the killer knew she wore these, knew that at the White's, her friends may have noticed them during toileting, or an adult might have noticed while helping her in the bathroom.

    Why would an intruder care?

    He wouldn't. Choosing Wednesday panties had to be done for a reason, that reason being that the person who put them on her did so to disguise one thing: that she had been changed, that the panties she had on were somehow soiled, and that the killer wanted that fact concealed for some reason.

    Now, I know that this theory relies on JonBenet having other day of the week panties she was known to wear. I have thought for years that Patsy had bought JonBenet a package at Bloomies in her size as well, but that may be misinformation that I accepted through time and repetition.

    So, I guess the big questions I still have are:

    Where are the pink pj bottoms?

    Did JonBenet wear day of the week panties usually? Were there any other day of the week panties in her drawer? Did she have a package of Bloomies specifically bought for her in her own size? Or did she only have the package bought for Jenny? (If LHP did see them in the drawer and make that statement.)

    Why can't Patsy remember when that package was opened and under what circumstances when it is critical and happened within 36 hours of JonBenet's death?





    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edited 2/3/2004 10:23:23 AM ET by KOLDKASE2



    From: KOLDKASE2 6:14 am
    To: AYELEAN unread (49 of 50)

    1716.49 in reply to 1716.48

    You're right about Patsy's stutters and stammering. These are classic signs of lying.
    What we need to pay attention to is the pattern of this in her speech in every area where she denies and equivocates and changes her story. Like with the underwear, she's trying to cover something. It seems to me that it usually happens every time the evidence she's being questioned about is seriously linked to the crime: the flashlight--oh, no, we have one like that, but I can't say that one is mine even though it's in my house and on my counter; oh, those panties are not too big, "we" decided to use them after JonBenet opened them, no big deal, I can't remember when; I can't remember what she wore that day, if she bathed before dressing that evening, if she ever washed her hands as I couldn't be bothered to do such motherly duties as menial as making sure my kids washed their hands after play or toileting or before eating; I don't remember ever seeing that rope, it could be JAR's, but I've never seen it...even though similar rope is in pictures of Jonbenet and in my basement on decorations and John did secure rope ends on our boats, but no, can't say that is ours....

    Remember the flap Carnes made about the "brown paper bag fibers" being in JonBenet's bed and in the body bag, which was "evidence of an intruder"? They discussed this at the swamp recently, with the quote from Carnes' decision. Jams was confused...and rightly so. Here is the picture of the "bag" at the end of the bed in JAR's room. Unless it contains a brown paper bag inside it with the rope, I don't see any brown paper bag. So you have to ask, where did those paper bag fibers come from?

    http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeo...jar_guest.html

    In reading the NE transcripts and books for the panty info, I noticed Patsy mentioned that she was packing that day...and she said she had 3 BLACK SUITCASES she was using. Now, I believe she said she had one in her bedroom. Here is one on the bed in JAR's room (I can't enlarge it, sorry, but I've seen it enlarged and notice the black suitcase at the upper corner--thanks for the pic ACR. I can see some clothes in front of the large suitcase that look either stacked or possibly in another dark, smaller bag, looking at this tiny pic, but I can't say for sure which:

    http://www.acandyrose.com/jar-bed-x.gif

    If there is only one bag on that bed, where is the third bag? I don't see it in Burke's room, though we can't see but one bed, so without seeing a picture of the other bed, I can't say for sure:

    http://www.acandyrose.com/042burkebedroom-x.gif

    So it has me wondering this: was the third bag the black bag at the end of JAR's bed? Is that the one with the rope in it? Michael Kane said the bag with the rope was more like a duffel bag, so that fits in general with the black bag at the end of the bed. And since Patsy has stated she was packing in that room that day, it would stand to reason this black bag at the end of the bed would be there. It's obviously a travel bag.

    So this "rope/paper bag" is another hinky thing in the Ramsey's lexicon of things they just can't remember. JAR has stated uneqivocally that rope is not his. Did the "intruder" bring in a black bag, his "rape kit" of duct tape and rope and cord and just forget it in JAR's room? He's so clever not to leave anything else that can be identified as his, but he leaves a piece of luggage? Any fingerprints on that? Fibers?

    Or did the cops ever get Patsy or John or JAR to actually identify that bag as theirs? Looks similar in color to the bag on the bed, but I can't tell in these pictures. Often luggage sets are purchased with these matching carry on bags. I have them. Did anyone ever ask the Ramseys if this is their bag?

    And lastly...where oh where did those "brown bag pieces" in JonBenet's bed and in the body bag come from? Jams says as far as she can remember, the "brown paper bag" was lost. What? How convenient. Or maybe it never was "found"....

    Any guesses? Think maybe those holiday presents were gathering in a brown paper bag to pack and send to Jenny and family? Could the Bloomies package have hasilty have been retrieved that night, in desperate need of "clean" Wednesday panties? Is that where the "brown paper bag" particles came from? Just a guess...but if Carnes' was given evidence that they were found under such damning circumstances, they had to come from somewhere.... Any body ever bother to nail this down? Or is this just another Smit "bugaboo"?

    Of course, they could have gotten on JonBenet at the White's: maybe the kids got some presents brought or stored in a brown bag, maybe they played with the bag or tore it open, then the particles from the present wrappings clung to her velvet jeans, which pick up everything, and then were deposited in the bed when she landed there...whenever that was. Maybe when she was playing in the floor with Daphne, John and White, earlier a paper bag had sat there while presents were being wrapped from it and she picked them up from the floor. Many ways that could have happened. But if these bag fibers were found as Carnes described, I hope to god somebody bothered to find out where they originated before they SHOVED them down Carnes throat as EVIDENCE OF AN INTRUDER. A "lost bag" containing "foreign rope" won't cut it. Not without a crime scene picture to support that it was at the Ramsey home and the rope was in it. Otherwise, it's just more Smit disinformation spun to rook Chris Wolf out of his day in court, having nothing to do with true evidence and the truth.

    Since Patsy and John and JAR and everyone denies they know anything about this "rope," when all evidence we have seen implies the contrary, pay attention to this "rope." Why would they not want to claim it? Because they know they pulled it out looking for "garrote" materials? Decided against, as it was too big and clumsey? Lots of activity in JAR's room that fateful day/night, wasn't there? Smit has that right. What he can't wrap his mind around is there is no evidence in there of any intruder, especially not just because the Ramseys say this or that. They're the prime suspects. You can't take what they say as gospel, no matter how religious you are.

    But I digress....

    My point is this: when Patsy starts her memory lapses and stammers and stutters...PAY ATTENTION: SHE'S COVERING SOMETHING.

    WHERE ARE THE PINK PJ BOTTOMS?






    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edited 2/5/2004 7:04:08 AM ET by KOLDKASE2

    Options Reply Delete Edit




    From: KOLDKASE2 6:45 am
    To: KOLDKASE2 (50 of 50)

    1716.50 in reply to 1716.49

    In schools now, they start teaching days of the week in pre-kindergarten. The kids write it on the blackboard...well, now the white board...themselves, taking turns all year. By the time they're 5, they know days of the week, months of the year, how the calendar works, etc. They do this every day in school and continue in kindergarten, first grade, second grade, etc.
    I don't think JonBenet would have had any problem reading "Wednesday" on her undies. She was a smart kid and she would have known that easily. Little kids take a lot of pride in what they learn early. I'd bet that if anyone was particular about what day of the week her panties said, it was her. JMO

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #46

    Default

    Well, FIRST Patsy said JonBenet opened the package.

    THE Patsy starts stuttering and goes into PASSIVE VOICE...meaning she goes from naming the action in a straightforward voice--JONBENET OPENED THE PACKAGE...to a passive, uncommittted description--THE PACKAGE WAS OPENED.

    That's a classic speech pattern used to distance herself from the opening of the package. She's TWICE put the action on someone else: first JonBenet, then "someone" opened it, because IT WAS OPENED...but not "I opened the package."

    She changed her story. Why? She's already said JonBenet opened the package. But she's got a problem with repeating that. I think it's because she's lying--about something here, anyway. She knows she's in trouble and she's stumbling. Wood picked up on it. If Patsy opened the package, she would remember that she had to cut that nylon loop with the store tags, wouldn't she, something a child would need help doing. Maybe she was afraid LE will figure that out. Or maybe she's having trouble focusing on her story, keeping it straight, because she's remembering exactly what happened in detail, and then she's trying to revise that without giving herself away to LE: JonBenet opened the package. Oops. No, the package WAS opened...and she/Patsy put the panties in the drawer. Yeah, that's the ticket.

    Now the question was THIS:

    Whatever was going on in her head, she changed her story. She tried to distance herself from the action of opening the package. So IMO, she's lying. Patsy opened the package herself, or whoever did, there's something involving the panties and the package that relates to the events of the night that ended with JonBenet's death.

    Let me check the sequence to see what the direct question was asked of Patsy before she changed her story.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #47

    Default

    You know, I'm sorry to be such a dog with a bone about this topic--so just scroll if you're bored with it. Jayelles re-opened a can of worms here for me. Obviously, from the Purgatory posts, this isn't new, and it wasn't new then, either, as these interviews were done in August of 2000, though I'm not sure when jams put up the transcripts. The NE book didn't come out until later, though. I'm going to have to re-read the questioning on this subject with Patsy in that, aren't I? sigh Well, for now....

    I don't believe it sunk in with me until this thread, though, that the Ramsey investigators ended up with the remaining too large panties, still IN THE PACKAGE, according to jams, and gave them to Wood, who gave them to Keenan. This is IMMENSELY incriminating. Even though LE neglected to focus on this evidence in good time, IMO, when they did, after Thomas had left, he stated under oath, they did have crime scene pictures of JonBenet's room and I'd think it's a safe bet, her bathroom, because I remember Patsy being asked about the toilet there in the '98 interviews. So I'm sure LE had those to look for that package of panties. They were NOT there.

    OR ELSE THEY WERE HIDDEN, STOWED AWAY IN ANOTHER DRAWER. Didn't someone say that in the Purgatory thread? OK, I'll check that again, because IF THE PACKAGE WAS NOT IN THE REGULAR PANTY DRAWER...IT WAS LIKELY HIDDEN ON PURPOSE, CONSIDERING HOW IMPORTANT THESE PANTIES HAVE BECOME IN THIS INVESTIGATION.

    And they ended up being FOUND by Ramsey investigators? Who KEPT THEM FOR 6 YEARS? OH NO THEY DIT-UNH!!

    That's it. The Ramsey investigators KEPT THE OVERSIZE BLOOMIES FOR SIX YEARS BECAUSE THEY KNEW IT WOULD BE INCRIMINATING TO GIVE THEM TO LE AND SAY EXACTLY WHERE THEY FOUND THEM! Jams tried to "explain" it by saying SHE felt that LE wouldn't handle them properly, so they kept them until Keenan got the case.

    HA! BUSTED! I'm growing quite fond of jams, I really am. Like Patsy, when jams starts making excuses...we should PAY ATTENTION!

    But I digress....

    Here's the first part of this questioning in Atlanta, 2000, and this time, I'm going to include the lead-in questions, complete with Wood doing his best to obfuscate the issue and cue Patsy that she needs to be very careful since she's given answers to some extent about this topic in the DA 1998 interview:

    [You really have to laugh at Wood here, he's so obvious. But it's notable how much COOPERATION we see here: the BDA had to struggle to get simple answers, and Wood wasted as much time as he could in that regard, though his intentions were not meant to help LE find any intruder, that's clear. Now you can see why Kane got so upset and threatened to leave himself eventually.]

    8 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, we

    9 are going to move on to another area. And

    10 what I want to discuss with you is the

    11 underpants that JonBenet was wearing at the

    12 time that she was discovered on the 26th.

    13 We are going to try to get some background

    14 information on those from you. Hopefully you

    15 can help us out a little bit. Okay?

    16 I don't, I'll be perfectly honest

    17 with you, I don't follow all of the media

    18 developments in this case, so I am not quite

    19 sure what is out in the public sector. But

    20 what I would like to get a feel for is just

    21 what your belief is with regard to the

    22 significance of the underpants that your

    23 daughter was wearing at the time that she

    24 was found murdered.

    25 MR. WOOD: With all due fairness,

    0076

    1 didn't you cover that in June of 1998?

    2 MR. LEVIN: I don't believe so,

    3 and I think that will become apparent.

    4 MR. WOOD: Okay. Well, maybe if

    5 you help me, just so I understand, when you

    6 say what is the significance of it, are you

    7 really just trying to find out what she

    8 might know about why she was wearing them?

    9 I am not sure what significance, with regard

    10 to significance --

    11 MR. LEVIN: What I would like to

    12 know is what Mrs. Ramsey's belief, as she

    13 sits here, is significant about the

    14 underpants. In a normal homicide case, what

    15 kind of underpants someone is wearing is

    16 typically not national news. Fair enough?

    17 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    18 MR. LEVIN: But apparently it has

    19 become national news, and I just want to get

    20 a sense, before I start asking some specific

    21 questions, which I hope she can help us

    22 with, why you think, what is your

    23 understanding of what the significance is.

    24 MR. WOOD: Bruce, I don't know,

    25 just so it is clear, I don't know that her

    0077

    1 underwear has become national news.

    2 Now, I don't know, sitting here

    3 today, I may want to go back and look at

    4 them, but it may be something that the

    5 tabloids have written about, but I don't know

    6 of any national news from reputable news

    7 agencies that have made that a major issue.

    8 But I am not arguing with that.

    9 I just want to make sure I don't agree with

    10 you by acquiescence, but --

    11 MR. LEVIN: I understand.

    12 MR. WOOD: - the question is, I

    13 think he wants to know, and maybe I am still

    14 not clear, you assume she attaches some

    15 significance to it, but I am not sure. If

    16 you asked her a factual question, maybe she

    17 will understand.

    18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start

    19 with what - I will make it very simple for

    20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you

    21 in possession of or what do you know about

    22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing

    23 at the time she was found murdered?

    24 A. I have heard that she had on a

    25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.

    0078

    1 Q. The underwear that she was

    2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you

    3 know where they come from as far as what

    4 store?

    5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.

    6 Q. Who purchased those?

    7 A. I did.

    8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased

    9 them?

    10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.

    11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many

    12 trips did you make to New York?

    13 A. Two, I believe.

    14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the

    15 same, same qualification I gave you when we

    16 started, which is, I understand that you are

    17 not going to give me exact dates, but the

    18 two trips you made, did you make those with

    19 different groups of people?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip

    22 with?

    23 A. The first trip was a

    24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra

    25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan

    0079

    1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her

    2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.

    3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her

    4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.

    5 Q. And the second trip you made was?

    6 A. The second trip we made was with

    7 Glen and Susan Stein.

    8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip

    9 was the November trip?

    10 A. With the children.

    11 Q. Was that -- that is the first

    12 trip?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And the second trip that you and

    15 your husband and the Steins took, was that

    16 also November, but later in the month, or

    17 was that a December trip?

    18 A. I think it was December.

    19 Q. And maybe this will help jog your

    20 memory as to time. I believe that was the

    21 time of the Christmas parade in Boulder.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Were you out of town?

    0080

    1 A. I remember that.

    2 Q. Which of those two trips did you

    3 purchase the Bloomi's?

    4 A. The first trip.

    5 Q. Was it something that was selected

    6 by JonBenet?

    7 A. I believe so.

    8 Q. Was it your intention, when you

    9 purchased those, for those to be for her,

    10 not for some third party as a gift?

    11 A. I bought some things that were

    12 gifts and some things for her. So I

    13 don't --

    14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is

    15 your best recollection that the purchase of

    16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the

    17 week, was something that you bought for her,

    18 whether it was just I am buying underwear

    19 for my kids or these are special, here's a

    20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your

    21 intention that she would wear those?

    22 A. Well, I think that I bought a

    23 package of the -- they came in a package of

    24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

    25 I think I bought a package to give to my

    0081

    1 niece.

    2 Q. Which niece was that?

    3 A. Jenny Davis.

    4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do

    5 you remember that they come in kind of a

    6 plastic see-through plastic container.

    7 A. Right.

    8 Q. They are rolled up?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,

    11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your

    12 niece, and one for JonBenet?

    13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or

    14 two.

    15 Q. Do you remember what size they

    16 were?

    17 A. Not exactly.

    18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the

    19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your

    20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you

    21 can accept that as a fact, when she was

    22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit

    23 her. Were you aware of that?

    24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

    25 as a matter of fact --

    0082

    1 MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a

    2 matter --

    3 MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old

    4 child?

    5 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as

    6 a matter of fact.

    7 MR. WOOD: Don't fit her

    8 according to whose standard?

    9 MR. LEVIN: By --

    10 MR. WOOD: I mean, I have got an

    11 11-year-old boy, and he wears underwear that

    12 potentially hangs down to his knees, Bruce.

    13 I mean, I don't know how you can come up

    14 with that as a fact. That sounds to me

    15 like more of an opinion. Who states that as

    16 fact?

    17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, your

    18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;

    19 correct?

    20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    21 Q. She was six years old?

    22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    23 Q. What size underpants would you

    24 normally buy for her?

    25 A. 8 to 10.

    0083

    1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it

    2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is

    3 wearing underpants designed for someone who

    4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,

    5 that those would not fit her?

    6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she

    7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit

    8 as well as a smaller pair.

    9 Q. And as a mother, you would know

    10 that someone who is 85 pounds is

    11 significantly larger than your little

    12 six-year-old?

    13 MR. WOOD: Can't we assume that

    14 as a matter of 85 is more than 45 without

    15 her having to document a mathematical fact,

    16 Bruce?

    17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) 40 pounds is the

    18 wrong size pair of underpants, would you

    19 agree?

    20 A. Yes.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #48

    Default

    OK, now I'm going to continue with Wood's interference edited out, so we can get the focused sequence of questions asked of Patsy, and her answers...and see when she started changing her story.

    Here is the FIRST VERSION of how the overlarge undies got on JonBenet:

    21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to

    22 understand is whether -- we are trying to

    23 understand why she is wearing such a large

    24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can

    25 help us if you have a recollection of it.

    0084

    1 A. I am sure that I put the package

    2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened

    3 them and put them on.
    So we have the straight question, and Patsy's FIRST straight answer: LE needs an explanation how those too large panties got on JonBenet, and Patsy gives it to them. No frills. Patsy put the package in JonBenet's bathroom, JonBenet opened them AND PUT THEM ON HERSELF. Bam. Next?

    But you have to hand it to the lawyers, they knew what they were doing...the questions become trickier...and NOW Patsy changes her story...and LIES about the proportion of the 12/14 panties:

    4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought

    5 these sometime in mid to early December, is

    6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,

    7 you bought them in November?

    8 A. Right.

    9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing

    10 these? And I don't mean this specific day

    11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you

    12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in

    13 this package of underpants and had been

    14 wearing them since the trip to New York in

    15 November?

    16 A. I don't remember.

    17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the

    18 laundry for the family, that is part of her

    19 duties; is that correct?

    20 A. Correct.

    21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash

    22 clothes on occasion?

    23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.

    24 Q. Do you have any recollection of

    25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?

    0085

    1 A. Not specifically.

    2 Q. Was it something that, the fact

    3 that she is wearing these underpants designed

    4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and

    5 I will give you a minute to think about it

    6 because I know it is tough to try to pin

    7 down a couple of months of casual

    8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any

    9 conversations with her concerning the fact

    10 that she is wearing underwear that is just

    11 too large for her?


    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it

    14 was, if it had caught your attention or came

    15 to your attention, do you think you might

    16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't

    17 fit, put something on that fits, that is

    18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,

    19 had come to your attention --


    20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the

    21 package had been opened, we made the

    22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and

    23 use them because, you know, we weren't going

    24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,

    25 so.

    0086

    1 I mean, if you have ever seen

    2 these little panties, there is not too much

    3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm

    4 sure even if they were a little bit big,

    5 they were special because we got them up

    6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they

    7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was

    8 fine with me.


    9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see

    10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?

    11 THE WITNESS: No.
    So the question before Patsy changed her story was: if she knew JonBenet had on these very large panties for a child her size, would Patsy have told JonBenet NOT to wear these panties which were too large if she'd known she had them on? Since the Boulder team established that the panties were quite a bit too large, Patsy feels pressured to explain why she didn't notice or supervise JonBenet on what was obviously an issue that needed adult guidance. Since Patsy has already stated she was the one who put the panties in JonBenet's bathroom, she's implied she gave her permission to wear them. Now she realizes that LE knows her story needs clarifying because the panties were entirely too large, as Jayelles has demonstrated.

    So Patsy changed her story into the passive voice, trying to wiggle out of her original I'M SURE I DID THIS AND JONBENET DID THIS statement. Then she LIES about how the panties weren't THAT much too big.

    And then Det. Harmer, god bless her, jumps right on the question that needs to be asked...and Patsy dodges it:

    12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically

    13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?


    14 And I am not saying --

    15 THE WITNESS: They were just in

    16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I

    17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all

    18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can

    19 help herself to whatever is in there.


    20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not

    21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to

    22 Jenny.


    23 THE WITNESS: Right.

    24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in

    25 JonBenet's bathroom?


    0087

    1 A. Right.

    2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm

    3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then

    4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet

    5 express an interest in them; therefore, you

    6 didn't give them to Jenny?
    How did that --

    7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I

    8 think I bought them with the intention of

    9 sending them in a package of Christmas things

    10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that

    11 together, so I just put them in her, her

    12 panty drawer. So they were free game.
    So Patsy goes from she bought the panties for Jenny, Patsy's SURE she put them in the bathroom, JonBenet opened them and put them on herself...to "WE" decided to use them, the package WAS OPENED, I never saw them on her, "I can't say for sure," "I THINK I bought them for Jenny," "I put them in THE DRAWER," "they were free game."
    Last edited by koldkase; August 5, 2006, 1:05 pm at Sat Aug 5 13:05:18 UTC 2006.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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