Conflicting evidence on blow/strangle- what's the answer

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Stonewall, Aug 25, 2006.

  1. Stonewall

    Stonewall Member

    Hi all newbie here. I have read two books (maybe Shiller, Thomas), and watched alot of shows.

    I can't quite figure out which came first, head blow or strangling.

    I see people say she wasn't hit first becasue there would have been signs of internal bleeding.

    Some say she couln't have been strangled first because then there would have been signs of stranling.

    Any ideas?
     
  2. Stonewall

    Stonewall Member

    Two things hardly mentioned

    Two things that to me seem important but never get mentioned.

    1) why didn't the Ramseys find the body? Or was there some chance Jonbenet was actually taken out of the house for some period? Maybe I am overstimating my abilities, but if it was my child I would have found the body.

    2) why did they let Burke sleep? I'm not sure about the layout of the house. Could the intruder have been under Burke's bed maybe? Or in Burke's closet? It doesn't sound like they even checked.

    If there was an intruder, it's possible he was killing Jonbenet right after the Ramsey's called the police, so the parents let one child sleep while the other was being executed downstairs. That seems a tad incompetent to me, doesn't it?
     
  3. jimswainbbmc

    jimswainbbmc Member

    Actually...

    It was John that DID find the body...albeit while Arndt was in the house. There are a few reasons why I feel the Ramseys did not 'find' her body before then:

    1. At the time of the 911 call, they were still under the assumption that it was a 'kidnapping'... they had already mentioned the ransom note to the 911 operator. If they discover the body before LE arrives, it opens up too many questions and casts suspicion firmly on the Ramseys.

    2. It would be much harder to disqualify the hair and fiber evidence on JBR's body if no one saw them in contact with her - John carrying her upstairs, Patsy throwing herself across JonBenet's body.

    As for them letting Burke sleep: I don't think they DID let him sleep. The enhanced 911 tapes appears to show a conversation between John and Burke at the end.
     
  4. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    The 911 call was made at 5:52 a.m. MT, Stonewall, and JonBenet's body was found at 1:07 p.m., a difference of seven hours. Full rigor mortis, the condition her body was in, takes at least twelve hours to develop. JonBenet died hours before the call was made.


    -Tea
     
  5. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    JonBenet's brain had hemmorhaged and there was also swelling of the brain, which points to the head blow having come first. Experts have estimated that about an hour elapsed after the head blow before the cord was put around her neck.

    And indeed, if she had been strangled first there would have been signs of resistance found. Nothing was found. For example, a perfect lip impression was on the duct tape which covered JB's mouth, which indicated that the tape was put on a motionless (and probably already dead) body.
    Who would put duct tape on a dead child's mouth? Someone who wanted to stage a scene. The parents imo.
     
  6. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Tea, Stonewall was being facetious. :) Supposedly, the Ramseys didn't know JonBenet was dead in the basement ... they were supposed to be thinking she was still alive somewhere (just kidnapped). So ... if you follow their flimsy story, she COULD have been being murdered in the basement while they fiddled around upstairs.

    And welcome to FFJ, Stonewall!
     
  7. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Exactly. Welcome to FFJ, Jim!
     
  8. Stonewall

    Stonewall Member

    Thanks Cherokee!

    I guess my point was to express a very negative connotation at the Ramseys. If it's my kid missing in a house, I scour it over and over until I find her or exclude her being there, and secondly, I get my other kids the heck out of there!

    It's not like the ransom note came in from the mail. No, somebody entered that house and put papers on the floor. With 99.9% certainty you look for that intruder and your kid, and with 99.9% certainty you get your other child out of there.

    PS - you don't invite friends over to get kidnapped also!
     
  9. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    From whatever source you have gleaned the information that "there would have been signs of internal bleeding," take note that there was internal bleeding inside and outside of JonBenet's skull and brain; that it was not present on the outside of her head's skin is was confounds people generally.

    The autopsy states that blood was found inside JonBenet's head in the following locations:

    Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization.

    What this means is that there was an area, 7 inches by 4 inches, of blood right under the scalp skin and on the surface of the skull bone. Imagine pouring out a glass of blood onto your kitchen counter. Imagine it forming a puddle 7 inches long and 4 inches wide. That was the first blood the coroner saw.

    On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage measuring approximately 7-8 cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere.

    This is a second layer of blood, now inside JonBenet's skull. It is called "subdural" because there is a casing of tissue around your brain called the dura, like sausage skin surrounds the sausage meat, and this blood was found under the dura. If you have not yet encountered the phrase, this is infamously called "two teaspoons of blood." Many people, for whatever reason, claim that this is the only blood that was found in JonBenet's head as a result of the blow. As you begin to see, though, this is not true, not when there is also a 7 inch by 4 inch blood puddle present.

    There is a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere.

    This is a third layer of blood, appearing in the subarachnoid space, like this:

    [​IMG]

    The layer of blood was thin, but again, imagine half of JonBenet's head covered in a thin layer of blood, and you have a sense of the amount that was in this third layer.

    The upshot of all this is that there was not a tiny amount of blood, but enough that, if it all appeared on your shirt, it would cause those around you to worry that you might be starting to bleed to death. Add to that blood the fact that JonBenet's brain had actually started to swell as a result of the head blow ("Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen."), and swelling does not happen within seconds but takes several minutes to initiate and become noticeable, and you have, not the scenario some favor of a head blow taking place immediately before death, but one that was delivered at least several minutes before JonBenet's heart stopped beating.
     
  10. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    :blush: Ooops! Oh, well. lol


    -Tea
     
  11. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    I just tried an experiment on my kitchen worktop which is black. I chalked out an area 4x7 inches and poured enough water to fill the area. It took 1fl oz of water. Now as water is much thinner than blood, there would be more than 1fl oz of blood to cover the same area. It's still not a lot - but remember the A&E doctor who was quoted as saying that blood is not always present in skull fractures?
     
  12. Thanks for that explaination, Why Not. Very understandable and informative.

    I'm puzzled about something, though. If it's clear that the blow to the head came first, and not in a close proximity of time to the subsequent strangling, what's the explaination for the medical examiner saying the cause of death was both? I've always been consused about that.
     
  13. hyperthink

    hyperthink Member


    Perhaps it is possible that following the head blow the party responsible for the blow assumed she was already dead, and then garrotted her to make it appear that someone else was responsible.

    The garrot is interesting - strangling is a very personal way of killing someone. The garrot is less so. Its as if whomever did it did not want to touch her...
     
  14. sue

    sue Member

    Very good explanation.
    This is a good link (warning gross pictures and very technical, but good information if you can get thru it):
    http://www.neuropathologyweb.org/chapter4/chapter4aSubduralepidural.html
    Three important points from that reference are:
    - the brain in injured from the initial impact that causes the injury plus the impact of the brain (which is only 'attached' to the body at the brain stem) and the skull.
    - damage/bleeding from arteries is more rapidly damaging than bleeding from veins (Arteries are the blood vessels that take blood away from the heart - that blood is at higher pressure. The veins are not at as high of pressure, so it takes longer to get a given amount of bleeding from a vein than an artery).
    - blood mixed with cerebral spinal fluid doesn't clot readily and the clot doesn't get "organized" right away (I have seen things written that say the head injury occured after death because there was no clot and because the autopsy states "This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization.

    Another good site is the Brain Injury Association of America:
    http://www.biausa.org/index.html
    This page has more specific information about types of injuries (it may look like the link didn't work, but scroll to the bottom of the page and you will find the info).
    http://www.biausa.org/Pages/types_of_brain_injury.html#closed
     
  15. sue

    sue Member

    Because either or both were severe enough to have caused her death by themselves, but it's not possible to say which one did.
     
  16. jimswainbbmc

    jimswainbbmc Member

    Thanks Cherokee!

    By the way, I spent about an hour last night going through your handwriting analysis. What an amazing piece of work - I am in awe!
     
  17. Ahhh... so, if there was just the blow to the head she would have died, or if she was just strangled she would have died. That makes sense... either one by itself would have killed her, so since it happened to be both, than both were the cause of death. Ok, I get it. Thanks. :)
     
  18. Tril

    Tril Member

    The sympathetic nervous system speeds up the heart and the parasympathetic system, by way of the vagus nerve, slows it down.

    By way of ganglionic neurons, the vagus ("wandering") nerve, the longest cranial nerve, affects many parts of the body, including the pharynx and larynx. Because the vagus nerve both originates in the brain and affects the neck region, I suppose it would be hard to tell whether it was the head blow or the strangulation that stopped JonBenet's heart. Assuming the vagus nerve was affected, of course.

    I've always believed it possible that the strangulation came first, but that it continued during and after the head blow.

    EDIT: I forgot to include this URL, which contains lots of info on the vagus nerve, as well as an illustration showing its location.

    http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/GrossAnatomy/h_n/cn/cn1/cn10.htm
     
  19. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    vagus nerve

    The vagus nerve actually wends it's way down the neck near the carotid artery.
    I assist 2 surgeons who do carotid endarterectomies and we always see the vagus nerve when we do them. I have asked about the effect of pressure applied to the neck and vagal response. Of course the answer was that it would possibly slow the heart down which was the answer I expected because Wecht describes it in his book. (Yea the doc looked at me like I'd been smokin' somethin', which they know I don't do) :)
     
  20. Subdivisions

    Subdivisions Member

    The location of the fracture indicates that JonBenet was probably seated or standing when she was bludgeoned, and not lying. The autopsy findings indicate that she was alive for a period of time after being struck. The marks left on her neck by the strangulation indicate that she was alive while being strangled, but it was done with such intensity as to leave deep furrows in her neck and be listed as a cause of death. There is clear indication that the strangulation was part of the staging, making it highly likely that the bludgeoning occured first. Most homicides where bludgeoning and strangulation occur, the bludgeoning takes place first.
     
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