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  1. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom
    Klonopin was just the right medication, then, because it works really well for panic attacks. (Know from my own experience)

    Heymom, certified and should not be out alone...
    Hypothetically, if someone was on Klonopin, and went off it within a short period of time because, again hypothetically, nobody else in one's family knew one was on it and it would be considered a source of stress to have one's spouse suddenly find out about it in the cramped quarters of, say, a cruise ship where it would be hard to hide the medication, would trying to wean one's self off it cause a build up of anxiety, pain and stressful feelings that might manifest in an emotional outburst uncharacteristic of one's normal level?

  2. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Why_Nut
    Hypothetically, if someone was on Klonopin, and went off it within a short period of time because, again hypothetically, nobody else in one's family knew one was on it and it would be considered a source of stress to have one's spouse suddenly find out about it in the cramped quarters of, say, a cruise ship where it would be hard to hide the medication, would trying to wean one's self off it cause a build up of anxiety, pain and stressful feelings that might manifest in an emotional outburst uncharacteristic of one's normal level?
    Hmmmm...it is considered to be addictive at a certain dosage - doctors are careful about prescribing it at a higher dosage for a long period of time. And if the reason for the panic attacks had not been addressed, then the person might return to the same state as previously experienced. I do not believe it would be anything akin to a drug withdrawal or detox, however. I took this medication at a very low dosage for a short period of time. It worked beautifully, and in fact, I have not had a panic attack since (cured?? Maybe) I experienced no heightened anxiety when I stopped taking it. In fact, I took it only as needed when I felt my panic beginning.

    Do you think that JR would have been upset to know that PR was taking Klonopin, or that she would have feared he would be upset? The way he's described, he sounds so distant and removed from the family that I doubt he would care.

    Heymom
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  3. #15

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    "Do you think that JR would have been upset to know that PR was taking Klonopin, or that she would have feared he would be upset? The way he's described, he sounds so distant and removed from the family that I doubt he would care."

    I don't think he would be very interested, but I think he wouldn't have APPROVED! He probably looked down at anyone taking those kinds of meds and would have felt Patsy was "weak" for needing them...if he had any thoughts at all!!!

  4. #16
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    JR took melatonin to help himself sleep. I don't really think he would have objected to Patsy's taking a drug for pain and anxiety; why would he? He claimed he didn't even know his daughter was still wetting the bed. I don't think he paid much attention to those sorts of things.

    And, they both drank alcohol, which may not be classified as a drug, but is certainly a mood-altering substance.
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
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    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---

  5. #17
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    Klonopin is a pretty common medication for the people I work with and I will say that very often the dosages get adjusted because of the excessive drooling that is one of the main side effects, at least with the population that I work with

    One should not drink alcohol when taking Klonopin either
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
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  6. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Why_Nut
    Hypothetically, if someone was on Klonopin, and went off it within a short period of time because, again hypothetically, nobody else in one's family knew one was on it and it would be considered a source of stress to have one's spouse suddenly find out about it in the cramped quarters of, say, a cruise ship where it would be hard to hide the medication, would trying to wean one's self off it cause a build up of anxiety, pain and stressful feelings that might manifest in an emotional outburst uncharacteristic of one's normal level?
    If someone has taken Klonopin every day for over a period of 4-6 weeks, then their body is addicted. Klonopin is a benzodiazepine which is as addictive as heroin or cocaine to the brain's GABA receptors. If a person is on more than an extremely low dosage of Klonopin, then abrupt stoppage of the drug is not recommended, ESPECIALLY if the body is used to receiving it every day.

    Sudden removal of the drug from a person's system will cause extreme agitation, anxiety, nervousness and other symptoms of withdrawal. If a person has been taking a fairly regular, or high dose, of Klonopin for more than two months, they may even experience severe withdrawal symptoms such as crawling skin, body aches, and suffocating panic.

    The addictive nature of Klonopin (and other benzodiazepines such as Valium, Xanax and Ativan) is why most doctors warn against prolonged usage on a daily basis. If Patsy was used to taking Klonopin on every day and abruptly quit for any reason, by the second day of stoppage, she would definitely have been in, and felt the effects of, severe withdrawal.
    Last edited by Cherokee; March 31, 2007, 10:10 pm at Sat Mar 31 22:10:57 UTC 2007. Reason: typo

  7. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom
    Do you think that JR would have been upset to know that PR was taking Klonopin, or that she would have feared he would be upset? The way he's described, he sounds so distant and removed from the family that I doubt he would care.

    Heymom
    We have more data points to chew on for pondering. John conveys in his 1998 interview that, even when he was being treated for various ills, he could not be bothered to complete a simple antibiotic course of medication, which may indicate an attitude that could have been somewhat anti-medication.

    MIKE KANE: I think you said yesterday that all those medications (INAUDIBLE) Melinda, your daughter, is a nurse. You said that at one point she came in and she cleaned out that kind of old stuff. When was that?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it might have been when she graduated or close to it, which would have been '95, '96.

    MIKE KANE: You know (INAUDIBLE)?

    JOHN RAMSEY: I mean you go to the doctor and you get some antibiotics and you don't take the whole bottle because you start feeling better and you quit taking them. We had (INAUDIBLE) left around like that.


    Combine that with John's lack of knowledge about Patsy's state of mental health.

    MIKE KANE: What do you know about Mrs. Ramsey having panic attacks?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Um, I don't know what a panic attack is, I guess, for sure. How would you -- describe it.

    MIKE KANE: Just a feeling that you can't control the moment, overreacting to something maybe more than would be within a normal range. Just feeling, I can't handle the situation.

    JOHN RAMSEY: She is as stable as a rock.

    MIKE KANE: So you have never known her to have those?

    JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).

    MIKE KANE: Never known her to be treated for those?

    JOHN RAMSEY: No.

    MIKE KANE: Never known her to take any medication for those?

    JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).

    MIKE KANE: Would it surprise you to find out that she did?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That would.

    MIKE KANE: Did you ever hear the drug Xanax, X-A-N-A-X?

    JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).

    MIKE KANE: Ever known Ms. Ramsey to take that?

    JOHN RAMSEY: No.


    Now, evaluate that in light of what Patsy has to say on the same subject.

    TOM HANEY: You mentioned earlier about getting counseling for Burke. How about counseling for you and John?

    PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, yeah.

    TOM HANEY: You still going or--

    PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

    TOM HANEY: Both of you?

    PATSY RAMSEY: Not as frequently now. I mean when I first started going, when I came back to Colorado after burying JonBenet, I mean I never had any experience with psychotherapy, because I never really needed it, even when I had cancer, I didn't feel like I needed it, because I had support of my husband, my family and my faith and you know, God healed me and I could get bigger. But this was just, you know, way beyond anything. And I realized, I mean it was after several weeks of just being in that fetal position, crying, and just not wanting to live basically, and you think, I can't go on like this. I need help. And I wasn't real sure what was out there, because I never had any experience to know what was out there. So actually, Barbara Fernie picked me up one day from where we were staying and I started having a panic attack, hyperventilating and all that stuff, and she was taking me to the doctor at that time, I had a bronchial infection, by the time I got to the doctor's office I was in a full-blown panic attack, this was in January or so.


    And then:

    TOM HANEY: These panic attacks that you mentioned, was that the first time that you had suffered through one of those or had you had those prior?

    PATSY RAMSEY: I had had one one other time, when I was in Boulder Community Hospital in the cancer clinic. And it was about midway through my chemo session, my nine-month session, and I guess all of sudden it just kind of came crashing in as to what was really happening. And I started trembling and shaking. The numbness in my lips.

    TOM HANEY: Those were your normal symptoms?

    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It was gone in a little bit, you know.


    Finally, Patsy has gone on the record herself as expressing hesitation about bringing before John a course of action that she herself would approve of taking, and even one that John might approve of, but still involving an avoidance of asking John to encourage or approve or even just tolerate this action, if it involves John's explicit knowledge of what his family is doing that does not affect him directly.

    One morning John was working in the garage when he saw Sister Socks gingerly walking toward him with a tiny kitten in her mouth. She laid the kitten down at hls feet and stood back, as if to say, “Here’s my baby. Could you help me take care of it?” John made a box, lined with a blanket, to put the little kitten in. Soon Sister Socks came back with another kitten - and another one. John is not particularly a cat person, but he and Sister Socks were now bonded. I know he would have taken her and her three kittens back to Boulder at the end of the summer, but I was afraid to ask him - and he wasn’t about to volunteer.

    Afraid? What on earth about this scenario invokes the concept of being "afraid" of anything, let alone of John?

    In my opinion, this was not an isolated instance, and for all we know, there were many reasons for Patsy to be "afraid" of asking John to approve of actions "he wasn't about to volunteer," some of which may have involved exposing as false Patsy's facade to John of being "stable as a rock."

  8. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    The addictive nature of Klonopin (and other benzodiazepines such as Valium, Xanax and Ativan) is why most doctors warn against prolonged usage on a daily basis. If Patsy was used to taking Klonopin on every day and abruptly quit for any reason, by the second day of stoppage, she would definitely have been in, and felt the effects of, severe withdrawal.
    I add that information in to the case, and feel it is a reasonable theory that, on December 26th, Patsy's friends and family witnessed a range of Patsy behavior that they had never witnessed before. I have no idea why this gets blown off so easily by her friends and family, but they themselves have said that until December 26th of 1996, not a single one of them ever saw Patsy break down and sob hysterically, become immobile, become distraught beyond all help, and basically become a person that was not in any way the Patsy Ramsey of December 25th and before. That previous Patsy was always known to be cool, calm and in control, especially under stress like that of the death of Beth, her own cancer, and even JonBenet's emergency-room visit in the wake of being bashed in the face and leg by Burke's golf club.

    I will add one more piece of data in to the pool. According to the 1998 interview, John's and Patsy's own lawyers were asked if all of the family's medical records were available for release, and the lawyers did not immediately say "yes." Instead, we see this from Bryan Morgan.

    BRYAN MORGAN: I have a real problem with certain kinds of medical records. These people are entitled to a privacy to try to recover from what they have been through, and that's a very serious issue for me, so we are going to discuss that and make a reasoned decision on it. I think you will find that every time anybody has asked us for anything in your office you have gotten it. I think you will get virtually everything you have described with the possible exception of personal medical records that I think John and Patsy are at least entitled to make a reasoned decision on, Detective Smit, with respect to privacy about things they need to continue this healing process.

    Interesting.

  9. #21
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    VERY interesting. Wonder what they are hiding?

    I would love to know, short of poisons, which can be detected years after death, if there are other chemicals that might be discovered with an exhumation from hair samples?
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

    http://66.98.176.96/~tricia/forums/s...ead.php?t=6404

  10. #22
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    The first part of John's interview where he says he couldn't be bothered to take all the prescribed medicine wouldn't necessarily mean he is anti-medicine. My doctor told me a lot of people start getting better, and they think they are cured, so they don't finish taking the medication. I did that a couple of times, myself, just because taking medicine was just something else I had to remember to do, and if I felt better and it was one thing off my list of things to remember, I'd toss the rest of the bottle.

    That wasn't the right thing to do, and that was back when I was young and foolish. I would never do that now, because I know it gives the bacteria a better chance of overcoming the medication. But, that could also be an option as to why John said he couldn't be bothered.

    Patsy's interview is very interesting. I remember, now, reading that she was afraid to ask John, but I didn't know what she meant at the time. I still don't, really. Some spouses will say things like that in a joking manner, like I would like three more cats, but Joe would probably kill me, haha. It's hard to tell how Patsy meant that without seeing her body language and if she might have been smiling when she said it.

    OTOH, I always thought JR was controlling and Patsy was passive in that relationship. She was the good, trophy wife - staying home with the children, being the social butterfly and volunteering for school projects and social events. She had her own household bank account and John put money in it for her to use as she wanted. He was the breadwinner, the one who needed a trophy wife and two perfect children. I don't think he was abusive, but he seemed above it all - like he didn't really want to be bothered with the particulars. Let Patsy make the arrangements for whatever, and he'd do his duty, if it didn't interfere with his business schedule. Patsy's lone plane trips to Atlanta for cancer treatments pretty much confirms that.

    This is obviously speculation, I don't know how they lived their lives. I just can't see him interfering in Patsy's cancer treatments and medications. Even the coldest bastid would think twice about doing something that could negatively affect his trophy wife's recovery, wouldn't he? Maybe I've just not met anyone that cold.
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
    the philosophy which does not laugh,
    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---

  11. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watching You
    This is obviously speculation, I don't know how they lived their lives. I just can't see him interfering in Patsy's cancer treatments and medications. Even the coldest bastid would think twice about doing something that could negatively affect his trophy wife's recovery, wouldn't he? Maybe I've just not met anyone that cold.
    I also cannot see him actively intefering, but before he could interfere, he would have to know that there was something to interfere with, so to speak. I think Patsy was a good judge of people's habits and instincts, and volumes of anecdotal evidence speak to how she was canny enough to play to a person's own nature and change her own in accordance with what they were comfortable with. Sort of like a personality psychic, if you will; she would know what a person would want or not want to be around, even if the person themselves did not necessarily know. If John had ever during the course of their marriage discussed how weak or uncomfortable it made him feel around people who were sick, because he could not do anything to help them, Patsy could well have picked up on that and made sure that, if at all possible, she kept herself from appearing any weaker or sick than was impossible to avoid, in the name of sparing her husband from feeling worse than he already may have. That may have manifested itself in the form of taking prescription medication like Klonopin before JonBenet's death, in order to ease her own pains that she did not want John to bear as a burden of knowledge he could do nothing with, but the risk in that could have been in her own lack of support structure in dealing with the effect of what could have gone wrong if she tinkered with the dose, or even quit it altogether under an impending circumstance (the cruise) that may have forced the issue into the open. Then, as an effect of the effort to hide this dosing process from John, her emotions escalated out of control, she found herself on the evening of December 25th in a situation she finally could not handle, and the fallout could have begun.

  12. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Why_Nut
    I also cannot see him actively intefering, but before he could interfere, he would have to know that there was something to interfere with, so to speak. I think Patsy was a good judge of people's habits and instincts, and volumes of anecdotal evidence speak to how she was canny enough to play to a person's own nature and change her own in accordance with what they were comfortable with. Sort of like a personality psychic, if you will; she would know what a person would want or not want to be around, even if the person themselves did not necessarily know. If John had ever during the course of their marriage discussed how weak or uncomfortable it made him feel around people who were sick, because he could not do anything to help them, Patsy could well have picked up on that and made sure that, if at all possible, she kept herself from appearing any weaker or sick than was impossible to avoid, in the name of sparing her husband from feeling worse than he already may have. That may have manifested itself in the form of taking prescription medication like Klonopin before JonBenet's death, in order to ease her own pains that she did not want John to bear as a burden of knowledge he could do nothing with, but the risk in that could have been in her own lack of support structure in dealing with the effect of what could have gone wrong if she tinkered with the dose, or even quit it altogether under an impending circumstance (the cruise) that may have forced the issue into the open. Then, as an effect of the effort to hide this dosing process from John, her emotions escalated out of control, she found herself on the evening of December 25th in a situation she finally could not handle, and the fallout could have begun.

    This is good reasoning, if too fast withdrawal from the medicine would have this kind of effect on someone. I don't know if it would or not.

    I kind of got the impression from watching Patsy's antics during the police interviews that Patsy could be confrontational without any help. Reference when she said, "Don't go there, pal." She had no problem getting in the detective's face when she didn't want to answer questions about her son. She could also be quite flip and sarcastic. I just think there was another side to Patsy Ramsey that was seldom shown to the public, and it had nothing to do with medicine.
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
    the philosophy which does not laugh,
    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---



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