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  1. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Why_Nut View Post
    Yes, Patsy said she had suffered a panic attack before JonBenet's death. In her 1998 police interview:

    TOM HANEY: These panic attacks that you mentioned, was that the first time that you had suffered through one of those or had you had those prior?

    PATSY RAMSEY: I had had one one other time, when I was in Boulder Community Hospital in the cancer clinic. And it was about midway through my chemo session, my nine-month session, and I guess all of sudden it just kind of came crashing in as to what was really happening. And I started trembling and shaking. The numbness in my lips.

    TOM HANEY: Those were your normal symptoms?

    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It was gone in a little bit, you know.

    TOM HANEY: Outside of those two episodes, have you had others?

    PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head)


    Of course, it says something about the nature of how Patsy was able to keep important secrets from John that he claims he knew nothing of these attacks.

    MIKE KANE: What do you know about Mrs. Ramsey having panic attacks?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Um, I don't know what a panic attack is, I guess, for sure. How would you -- describe it.

    MIKE KANE: Just a feeling that you can't control the moment, overreacting to something maybe more than would be within a normal range. Just feeling, I can't handle the situation.

    JOHN RAMSEY: She is as stable as a rock.

    MIKE KANE: So you have never known her to have those?

    JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).

    MIKE KANE: Never known her to be treated for those?

    JOHN RAMSEY: No.

    MIKE KANE: Never known her to take any medication for those?

    JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).

    MIKE KANE: Would it surprise you to find out that she did?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That would.

    MIKE KANE: Did you ever hear the drug Xanax, X-A-N-A-X?

    JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).

    MIKE KANE: Ever known Ms. Ramsey to take that?

    JOHN RAMSEY: No.


    Xanax, eh? I think we are seeing Kane hint at something that he knew and John did not; that when investigators finally got hold of some medical records Patsy was found to have been taking Xanax, which would have given her credible deniability that she had had more than one panic attack (after the first, a prescription for Xanax would have let her fend off subsequent full-blown attacks).
    Perhaps the possible paradoxical side effects of Xanax have been well covered in other posts, but in case they haven't been:

    The benzodiazepines (BZs) have for several decades been recognized in the literature and clinical practice for their capacity to cause mental and behavioral abnormalities.

    Xanax (alprazolam), and to an even greater extent, Halcion (triazolam), have a significantly different profile from other benzodiazepines due to their greater capacity to bind to receptors and their shorter half-life.

    Halcion's very short half-life led to the hope that it would make a particularly good sleeping medication but it has proven especially dangerous.

    The brain-disabling or toxic effects of the Bzs in general can be divided into several somewhat overlapping categories:

    (1) The primary clinical effect of inducing sedation (tranquility) or hypnosis (sleep), which is indistinguishable from a toxic effect except in degree;
    (2) Cognitive dysfunction, ranging from short-term memory impairment and confusion to delirium;
    (3) Disinhibition and other behavioral aberrations-- including extreme agitation, psychosis, paranoia, and depression, sometimes with violence toward self or others;


    In one of her interviews Patsy said that if they didn't take JonBenet to the bathroom before they put her to bed she would very likely wet it. She also told us that JonBenet was asleep when they got home and didn't wake up. I think we can assume JonBenet did wet the bed. So JonBenet wet the bed, soiling the red turtleneck, the one she and Patsy had battled over earlier. It wouldn't be surprising if an exhausted Patsy became very, very angry. If she were also under the disinhibiting effects of Xanax...well, I guess we know what happened.

  2. #98

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    Hey, Fr Brown, I think you posted this link at Topix.com to an analysis of John Ramsey's 48 Hours interview, the one where Tracey was fingering John Mark Karr. Thanks:

    http://blog.eyesforlies.com/2006/11/...interview.html

    What this blogger says is in fact pretty much the same thing many of us have discussed over the years about the Ramseys' post-murder demeanor and behavior, but it's interesting to read another's perspective, as well.

    A comment I found in the "Comment" section of this blog was also interesting. From someone who signs as "Sara," we see the thoughts of a person who claims to have professional experience interacting with sexual abuse victims. Sara outlines her own assessment of the evidence, especially the autopsy evidence of chronic sexual abuse, and what she has observed in dealing with families of sexual abuse. So thought I'd share what she wrote here, for another perspective on how important this evidence is, IMO.

    [If "Sara" or Eyes for Lies objects to this being posted here, please contact the admin. and it will be removed. Thanks in advance for sharing your insights on this case, as well.]

    In two postings:

    Sara
    I would recommend the article about the crime and investigation the following link: http://www.crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm - for an online piece it is pretty comprehensive with links to documents (like the letter and the complete autopsy report). What is very concerning is that it appears the autopsy report reveals injury consistent with chronic sexual abuse (the injuries are pretty significant in that most cases of chronic sexual abuse show no sign of physical injury) - There is a tear or transection of the hymen and inflamation of vaginal walls. The inflamation suggests chronic abuse to me (I deal with sexual assault examinations of children in my work) - so could the hymen injury (which is significant and some might argue conclusive of abuse - if the report mentioned healing to the hymen injury it would most definetately suggest past or chronic abuse.) However, other signs of chronic - rather than single event - sexual abuse appear to be present -- namely the fact that the child seemed to suffer from secondary urinary incontinence - meaning - at some point after she became potty trained she reverted back to bedwetting (so chronic that they had plastic sheets, etc.) Now lots of kids may have periodic wetting problems when little but if it is ongoing after they experienced a period of continence (which I am making the assumption was the case here) it is often viewed as a sign of serious emotional trauma - which is typically the result of chronic sexual abuse but could be another emotional trauma - here there are also these other injuries suggesting sexual abuse. I am fairly convinced that someone was molesting her for a meaningful period of time prior to the murder. I do not want to believe it is the dad but it is ussually someone with access and trust of the child (maybe I do not want to beleive it b/c even if he's covering up you feel for him / same thing with Patsy) -- but you never know - molesters often appear very very normal and can be loving parents but still molesters (seems weird but it is a cognitive dissonance of sorts). I think the theory posited by the former lead detective on the case is plausible and supported by the evidence (Patsy accidently kills V during discipline incident that got out of control) - due to the trauma the child was experiencing she could have presented some diffiuclties for her parents (Patsy especially because she is likely the primary caretaker) that they did not understand (or did b/c abuse was suspected or revealed).
    Sunday, March 07, 2010, 2:13:53 PM


    Sara
    (Please read immediate prior post - this is a continuation - i'm wordy!) ... There might have been misplaced anger toward the child due to the parents being in denial about sexual abuse or not understanding the signs - maybe jonBenet disclosed abuse to Patsy or Patsy thought it was happening and thought it was john but was in denial and subconsiously blamed the child. (I see a lot of mothers who refuse to believe their child's allegation of sexual abuse and more often then you would think there can be a jealousy if the suspected abuser is the husband / significant other of the mom) Here we had a mom who treated her daughter as an extension of her own youth and beauty - just look at the pagent stuff! Patsy may have been jealous of this child (i know it seems odd but feelings are exactly that and by nature not logical), she might have been angry / jealous about the sexual abuse and frustrated by the child's abuse related acting out - exhausted, emotionally confused, hurt - she looses it when the kid wets the bed yet again. Don't hate me for coming to this conclusion -- but John could have been the abuser and Patsey the killer and each knows the other's crime... I think the abuse was intentional and the death was reckless - they staged it as a sexual homcide to cover for the sexual abuse they knew would be uncovered - they each had a strong vested interest in keeping the other's secret. The Ramseys were treated very very well by police and prosecutors -- I think certain of the police did a good job on this case but that the prosecutor's office was more interested in pandering to constituents then prosecuting cases -- at least based on this article - I am wholly unimpressed with the DA's office. JonBenet deserves justice. Even if Patsy's the killer and was in a confused emotional state when she recklessly beat her child (caused her head to slam on edge of tub is theory)- at least from my own spiritual perspective I am at peace in my heart with the belief that where ever JonBenet and Patsey are the veil of all this pain, confusion, twisted emotions, etc. has been lifted and they are at peace. It is an incredible tragedy.
    Sunday, March 07, 2010, 2:15:27 PM

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Hey, Fr Brown, I think you posted this link at Topix.com to an analysis of John Ramsey's 48 Hours interview, the one where Tracey was fingering John Mark Karr. Thanks:

    http://blog.eyesforlies.com/2006/11/...interview.html

    What this blogger says is in fact pretty much the same thing many of us have discussed over the years about the Ramseys' post-murder demeanor and behavior, but it's interesting to read another's perspective, as well.

    A comment I found in the "Comment" section of this blog was also interesting. From someone who signs as "Sara," we see the thoughts of a person who claims to have professional experience interacting with sexual abuse victims. Sara outlines her own assessment of the evidence, especially the autopsy evidence of chronic sexual abuse, and what she has observed in dealing with families of sexual abuse. So thought I'd share what she wrote here, for another perspective on how important this evidence is, IMO.

    [If "Sara" or Eyes for Lies objects to this being posted here, please contact the admin. and it will be removed. Thanks in advance for sharing your insights on this case, as well.]

    In two postings:
    After I read in PMPT that JonBenet missed her father and hated when he was away, I decided that he probably wasn't her abuser. On the other hand, I don't know if violent wiping (by mom) could have caused the changes in her vagina. (Maybe coupled with numerous infections?)

    I think it's very, very unusual for a mother to insert objects in her child's vagina, but I think I remember reading of a few cases in The Assault on Truth by Jeffrey Masson.

    If that happened, I wouldn't be surprised if JonBenet leaked something to some of her friends' parents. They would probably dismiss it as coming from a child's overactive imagination.

  4. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    After I read in PMPT that JonBenet missed her father and hated when he was away, I decided that he probably wasn't her abuser. On the other hand, I don't know if violent wiping (by mom) could have caused the changes in her vagina. (Maybe coupled with numerous infections?)

    I think it's very, very unusual for a mother to insert objects in her child's vagina, but I think I remember reading of a few cases in The Assault on Truth by Jeffrey Masson.

    If that happened, I wouldn't be surprised if JonBenet leaked something to some of her friends' parents. They would probably dismiss it as coming from a child's overactive imagination.
    Violent wiping (and after all, how violent can wiping really be?) wasn't the cause, but douching may have been. Some of Patsy's friends said she regularly douched JB because she felt her soiling (with feces) was the cause of all her infections (and it may have been so).
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    Violent wiping (and after all, how violent can wiping really be?) wasn't the cause, but douching may have been. Some of Patsy's friends said she regularly douched JB because she felt her soiling (with feces) was the cause of all her infections (and it may have been so).
    Hm. Could be.

    I started thinking about any instances of forcible penetration of a young girl by a woman and the case of Sandra Cantu and Melissa Huckaby came to mind.

    Some of the documents in the case have been unsealed and what do you think Huckaby drugged Sandra Cantu with?

    Xanax.

    Huckaby drugged other people with Xanax so I'm guessing she probably took it herself pretty regularly.

    Huckaby raped Sandra with a rolling pin.

    http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/06/19/san...s-unsealed-in/
    Last edited by fr brown; August 31, 2010, 8:02 am at Tue Aug 31 8:02:35 UTC 2010.

  6. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Hey, Fr Brown, I think you posted this link at Topix.com to an analysis of John Ramsey's 48 Hours interview, the one where Tracey was fingering John Mark Karr. Thanks:

    http://blog.eyesforlies.com/2006/11/...interview.html

    What this blogger says is in fact pretty much the same thing many of us have discussed over the years about the Ramseys' post-murder demeanor and behavior, but it's interesting to read another's perspective, as well.

    A comment I found in the "Comment" section of this blog was also interesting. From someone who signs as "Sara," we see the thoughts of a person who claims to have professional experience interacting with sexual abuse victims. Sara outlines her own assessment of the evidence, especially the autopsy evidence of chronic sexual abuse, and what she has observed in dealing with families of sexual abuse. So thought I'd share what she wrote here, for another perspective on how important this evidence is, IMO.

    [If "Sara" or Eyes for Lies objects to this being posted here, please contact the admin. and it will be removed. Thanks in advance for sharing your insights on this case, as well.]

    In two postings:
    Wow, good pick up, kk. This Sara seems to have her act together. I always suspicioned that, if there was chronic abuse, that JAR was the perp. I still strongly suspect this but Sara makes a case for John which would explain his willingness to go along with the whole thing.

    On the other hand, if it was JAR, and Patsy/John just began suspecting it, the same scenario might play out, no? JAR was John's son, he might go along to protect him. I wonder what kind of relationship JAR had with Patsy following JBR's death?

  7. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    Hm. Could be.

    I started thinking about any instances of forcible penetration of a young girl by a woman and the case of Sandra Cantu and Melissa Huckaby came to mind.

    Some of the documents in the case have been unsealed and what do you think Huckaby drugged Sandra Cantu with?

    Xanax.

    Huckaby had drugged other people with Xanax so I'm guessing she probably took it herself pretty regularly.

    Huckaby raped Sandra with a rolling pin.

    http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/06/19/san...s-unsealed-in/

    Interesting. I know one thing. I have a sister who has really been messed up with Xanax.

  8. #104

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    Learnin, I can only say that the Ramsey had no picture at all of JAR in their book, DOI. They had photos of all the other children, but not him.

    There was a strange news report from his college buddies after the murder, when JAR actually "went missing" for the beginning of the next semester after Christmas holidays. The friends were so concerned that they actually talked to the media about it. They said JAR had so loved JonBenet that he had talked about her and how much he loved her and how beautiful she was, ALL THE TIME.

    When the reporter who wrote the article called upon the Ramseys with these concerns and statements, one of Patsy's sisters was very short and abrupt, saying if they were really friends, they'd stay out of it, more or less. She said JAR was with the family.

    Now, I thought the statements of the male friends, all college age, were odd, considering that JonBenet was six and had been murdered. But who knows how accurate those statements were in such a stressful time, and through the news reporter's perception? Plus, who could blame a brother for mourning such a death privately?

    Still, with all the elements of this crime unexplained, no close relative of JonBenet's is ever going to be free of suspicion by the general public. I still have questions about the grandfather's strange Christmas Eve standby flight to Atlanta, as well as the fact that the Ramseys first stayed with a bachelor/business partner when they returned to Boulder, in an apt. Patsy described as sparsely furnished and uncomfortable, instead of staying with her own father in his apt. there. It might have been too small, who knows, but it is a question never answered as far as I know. Lots of those.

    I have read an autobiography written by a woman whose Southern family habits of heritage included her mother giving her enemas when she was a small child, while the relatives held her down and watched her writhe and scream. Her father also sexually abused her when her mother brought the new baby home and moved into the child's room to be near the baby, putting the older girl in bed with the father.

    The damage done to this woman's psyche was brutal and she spent her life dealing with the betrayal of that abuse by almost self-destructing in abuse she heaped on herself. I couldn't actually finish the book, it was so hard to take reading about this. It was called Fatal Flowers. As it was considered a "groundbreaking" book about women and sexual repression in its time, I think a lot of people missed the deep psychology revealed in her retelling of the abuse which so devastated her because she downplayed it herself. Having studied the subject as much as I have, I wonder if she ever became aware of how significant that abuse was in her terrible relationship and sexual choices as an adult.

    Of course, the textbook case of well documented child sexual abuse is Marilyn Van Derbur: Miss America By Day. She wrote her own autobiography, another book that will tear you up to read. The parallels between her life and Patsy's are astonishing in many ways, though no one has ever mentioned Patsy or her sisters being abused--except for Tom Haney.

    Knowing what the evidence is in the abuse and murder of JonBenet, I believe that there was a very sick pathology going on in the Ramsey family. Look at how destructive it was, how it all ended. If it has ended....

    Well, just some thoughts to ponder. You can find a chapter of Van Derbur's book, along with some info and videos, etc., here: http://www.missamericabyday.com/

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Interesting. I know one thing. I have a sister who has really been messed up with Xanax.
    I think we all have friends or family who have fallen into the prescription medication hell peddled by doctors/pharmaceutical companies to the vulnerable.

    I think Patsy very well could have suffered with a prescription drug-induced pathology. This is why I can't dismiss Bother Moon's theory. Someone was all kinds of crazy that night, and Patsy is all over the crime scene and did write the note, I believe there's no doubt. She also lied to LE relentlessly and without remorse.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I think we all have friends or family who have fallen into the prescription medication hell peddled by doctors/pharmaceutical companies to the vulnerable.

    I think Patsy very well could have suffered with a prescription drug-induced pathology. This is why I can't dismiss Bother Moon's theory. Someone was all kinds of crazy that night, and Patsy is all over the crime scene and did write the note, I believe there's no doubt. She also lied to LE relentlessly and without remorse.
    I remember seeing Melissa Huckaby in court on tv. I thought she was ashamed of what she had done. I was expecting to see a sociopath, but she didn't strike me like that. I didn't make any connection with Xanax at the time.

    It's interesting that Huckaby's crime has some of the same elements as Patsy's: penetration with an object, trauma, strangulation, a note, a suitcase and even a cord.

  11. #107
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    This is pretty much hearsay, but ...

    My daughter was a senior at a Pennsylvania college in 1996/1997. She was dating a guy who attended the University of Colorado at Boulder, and she went to visit him there over her February break in 1997, just 2 months after JB's death. Of course, everyone was still talking about the murder of JB, and though my daughter's boyfriend didn't know JAR personally, he knew who he was and the consensus was that he had something to do with it. He was regarded as "weird" by many on campus, and when my daughter's boyfriend heard about the murder, the first though he had was that JAR had done it. Apparently, he used to talk about her in an almost obsessive and inappropriate way.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  12. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Learnin, I can only say that the Ramsey had no picture at all of JAR in their book, DOI. They had photos of all the other children, but not him.

    There was a strange news report from his college buddies after the murder, when JAR actually "went missing" for the beginning of the next semester after Christmas holidays. The friends were so concerned that they actually talked to the media about it. They said JAR had so loved JonBenet that he had talked about her and how much he loved her and how beautiful she was, ALL THE TIME.

    When the reporter who wrote the article called upon the Ramseys with these concerns and statements, one of Patsy's sisters was very short and abrupt, saying if they were really friends, they'd stay out of it, more or less. She said JAR was with the family.

    Now, I thought the statements of the male friends, all college age, were odd, considering that JonBenet was six and had been murdered. But who knows how accurate those statements were in such a stressful time, and through the news reporter's perception? Plus, who could blame a brother for mourning such a death privately?

    Still, with all the elements of this crime unexplained, no close relative of JonBenet's is ever going to be free of suspicion by the general public. I still have questions about the grandfather's strange Christmas Eve standby flight to Atlanta, as well as the fact that the Ramseys first stayed with a bachelor/business partner when they returned to Boulder, in an apt. Patsy described as sparsely furnished and uncomfortable, instead of staying with her own father in his apt. there. It might have been too small, who knows, but it is a question never answered as far as I know. Lots of those.

    I have read an autobiography written by a woman whose Southern family habits of heritage included her mother giving her enemas when she was a small child, while the relatives held her down and watched her writhe and scream. Her father also sexually abused her when her mother brought the new baby home and moved into the child's room to be near the baby, putting the older girl in bed with the father.

    The damage done to this woman's psyche was brutal and she spent her life dealing with the betrayal of that abuse by almost self-destructing in abuse she heaped on herself. I couldn't actually finish the book, it was so hard to take reading about this. It was called Fatal Flowers. As it was considered a "groundbreaking" book about women and sexual repression in its time, I think a lot of people missed the deep psychology revealed in her retelling of the abuse which so devastated her because she downplayed it herself. Having studied the subject as much as I have, I wonder if she ever became aware of how significant that abuse was in her terrible relationship and sexual choices as an adult.

    Of course, the textbook case of well documented child sexual abuse is Marilyn Van Derbur: Miss America By Day. She wrote her own autobiography, another book that will tear you up to read. The parallels between her life and Patsy's are astonishing in many ways, though no one has ever mentioned Patsy or her sisters being abused--except for Tom Haney.

    Knowing what the evidence is in the abuse and murder of JonBenet, I believe that there was a very sick pathology going on in the Ramsey family. Look at how destructive it was, how it all ended. If it has ended....

    Well, just some thoughts to ponder. You can find a chapter of Van Derbur's book, along with some info and videos, etc., here: http://www.missamericabyday.com/


    Very interesting, indeed. When you think about it, I mean JAR had a bedroom, I believe, adjacent to JBR's. More than likely, she crawled in there from time to time. And that blanket in the suitcase, it had his semen on it, no? And she was only a half sister.

    One of the things, during my first real read about this case, that grabbed me is when JAR stumbled out of an alley during the University Hill riots. When one of the police advised him to get away, he replied something to the effect: "Yea, I have enough trouble."

    I thought this might indicate some kind of involvement in JBR's death (and it still might be the case) but I wonder if the autopsy findings, of chronic vaginal injury, might have really confirmed a few things for John and JAR was grilled about it.

    One of the real aggravating things about this case is the mixed medical opinions about the chronic vaginal trauma. Many experts say it is indicative of ongoing abuse but someone always brings up some professional opinions which cast doubt upon this. It seems this should be something which is black and white to me or darned near black and white. I suspicion, for BPD at least, that it was black and white.

    If JBR was being abused, prior to her death, this most assuredly means that the abuse is connected to the death, no?



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