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  1. #25

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    Well, we know what Thomas said in his book, we know what Bardach wrote in the VF article, we know what Schiller wrote from the police files he had carte blanche to use, we know what the interviews with Patsy and John reveal in 4/97, 6/98, and Atlanta Aug/2000. We know who was in the home from the time LE responded to the 911 call; we know the Whites arrived before the Fernies, as well as who was in the house that morning before the body was found. We know that Arndt was left alone to manage a crime scene full of parents and friends and victim advocates bringing food in, moving about the house and basement, wiping counters, all while waiting for "kidnappers" to call.

    Whatever reason the cops let the rest of the kidnap party in once the first responders had arrived and didn't tell everyone to leave who was already there, I'll never know. Even with the open threats in the note, the very stupid dismissal of any concern about kidnappers seeing LE cars right in front of the home, plus the cars of all those "guests," is just inconceivable.

    Even worse, we know that Arndt became so unnerved she did something so devastating to the case that it's hard to believe it: she sent TWO MORE people wandering around the house looking for "evidence." She might not have called it evidence, but telling them to look for anything suspicious or out of place pretty much means EVIDENCE.

    I cannot help but disagree with you, Spade. Perhaps if you can share what you have that we haven't seen, I will change my mind. With the resources I have seen, I can only say the BPD response and initial treatment of the residence as the scene of a kidnapping was without a doubt the single worst police error at a crime scene to ever hit the true crime news in years.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

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    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spade
    Have you read the first responders report? Do you know who the first reponders were? Do you know the first reponders interaction with the FBI?
    I'd also like to know more about the role John Eller played in all this. Steve Thomas thinks highly of Eller in his book, whereas the author of PMPT presents a very critical portrait of Eller when it comes to the investigation (p. 15):
    At first Mason couldn't understand why the officers on the scene hadn't secured the house earlier, separated the Ramseys, and questioned them individually. Then he learned that Commander Eller had ordered that the Ramseys be treated as victims, not as suspects.
    The Ramseys were an "influential family", Eller told Mason, who realized that this message must have affected the behavior of all the officers at the scene.
    Schiller also mentions that Eller later more or less pushed the FBI out of the case because he, for reasons of personal pride, felt that his department could handle this case alone.
    Interesting how much ST's and Schiller's judgements differ when it comes to John Eller.

    The BPD also should never have allowed Patsy's sister Pam Paugh to stage her 'one woman-raid' on the crime scene that ST could only compare to burning the damned place down. This was after the crime scene had turned from kidnapping to murder, but the cops even helped her to carry out what the Ramseys had told her to do: she was allowed to put on a police uniform and remove (possibly crucial) items from the Ramsey home, thereby destroying possible forensic evidence. One would think this was a scene from a really bad police movie, but truth is stranger than fiction when it comes to the mistakes that were made in the JBR case. Everything that could be done wrong, was done wrong.

  3. #27
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    I believe that even some things that couldn't have been done wrong, were done wrong. :404:

    Heymom
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spade
    If the first responders would have done their job we would probably not be sitting here today.

    I strongly disagree. The coverup/staging was complete, for whatever that is worth, the kidnapping brunch invitees were on their way but IMO much more important: The fix was being arranged long before the first responders arrived on the scene.

    I think you might find information from the first responders report in Ann Bardach's Vanity Fair article. IMO the first responders did a professional job, especially since they were being bull chited about a fake kidnapping by John, Patsy. and Burke Ramsey from the time of the 911 call.

    Please read the Bonita files and the 1997, 1998, and Atlanta 2000 interviews before you criticize the BPD.
    You stated earlier that the Ramsey's were not sophisticated baby killers... Does this statement not contradict that? If they are smart enough to know to cover up ALL physical evidence by inviting friends to come and run through the crime scene and destroy evidence then why did they not remove her wet garments. What you are suggesting is sophisticated and well thought out. I mean if they were up all night then they surely had a well thought out plan, correct? Why leave loose ends? Why get rid of the tape and rope (granted Patsy's sister could have grabbed it during her mini-mart sweep) and leave the note pad in clear site, better yet why would you willing hand that notepad over if you had forgotten to get rid of it the first place..

    Second of all... Vanity Fair is not the best place to start your policing research... The BPD screwed up BIG TIME and did NOT follow protocol.

    Resposibilty of responding police officers:

    A. Treat location as a crime scene until declared otherwise (she was taken from her room this makes the house a crime scene)
    B. Control ALL individuals at the crime scene
    C. Establish boundaries - assessing likely boundaries being aware of trace and impression evidence.
    D. PROTECT scene from entry except by AUTHORIZED personnel.
    E. Do NOT permit any contamination of the scene, evidence, or conditions at a scene.

    These are a few of many, but many of the others wouldn't apply to the situation unfolding at the Ramsey home (such as summoning medical assistance). The steps I listed above were not followed and the house was never fully searched.

  5. #29
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    I don't want to argue the Ramsey's innocence here. You're kind of in the wrong place for that. There's plenty of documentation of all the evidence still remaining once the Kidnapping Brunch broke up.

    But just after killing their child, or having a deadly accident happen, they didn't think of every single detail. They wanted to screw things up enough that the intruder theory would be plausible, not definite. Some here think they intended to get JonBenet's body OUT of the house at some point, but couldn't follow through with that. In other words, they had a plan A, and that might not have worked, so they went with plan B.

    Anyway, I don't have the patience for all this. That's it from me.

    Heymom
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  6. #30

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    "Anyway, I don't have the patience for all this. That's it from me."
    Heymom

    ditto

    Spade

  7. #31

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    While patrol officer French was alone in the house with the Ramseys, John took an incoming call, answering it with "JonBenet's been kidnapped!!"

    Whose phone rings at 6 AM the day after Christmas? It was likely a return phone call from someone John had reached out to prior to the arrival of French. Also, given the threatening content in the ransom note, why did John blurt out "JonBenet's been kidnapped"? The caller might have been law enforcement or a stray dog, thus causing her death.

    I agree that they were on the phone to lawyers/fixers prior to the arrival of the police.

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat
    While patrol officer French was alone in the house with the Ramseys, John took an incoming call, answering it with "JonBenet's been kidnapped!!"

    Whose phone rings at 6 AM the day after Christmas? It was likely a return phone call from someone John had reached out to prior to the arrival of French. Also, given the threatening content in the ransom note, why did John blurt out "JonBenet's been kidnapped"? The caller might have been law enforcement or a stray dog, thus causing her death.

    I agree that they were on the phone to lawyers/fixers prior to the arrival of the police.
    Or, the caller might have been the kidnapper, had there been a kidnapper. If my daughter had been kidnapped, I would have grabbed that phone in hope it was the kidnapper or my daughter calling. Yes, I would say that was a strange way for him to answer the phone that morning.
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
    the philosophy which does not laugh,
    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---

  9. #33
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    Default Wy

    And if not the kidnapper, it might have been JonBenet herself, having managed to sneak somewhere and phone home. Yea, she was young but kids are taught to know their home phone number from preschool on.

    If I had been the parent answering a phone call after my daughter had been supposedly spririted away in the night, those are the top thoughts that would go through my mind - the kidnapper is making contact or my precious baby has managed to get in a desperate phone call.

    Either way, John's remark is off the mark. But, let's face it, everything John and Patsy did that morning reeks of bad acting in the role of parents of a kidnapped child. I guess in all the other staging aspects, they didn't have time to coach each other on the subtleties of how to look like innocent parents.

  10. #34
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    The Ramseys were flying by the seat of their pants that night, Pearlsim. John and Patsy were both educated people - inviting their friends over that morning was part of their cover, not only to mess up the crime scene but also to help blanket them from the intense questioning and observation of the police. With that many people hanging around, the few police that were there, and then Linda Ardnt, who was there by herself, had to spread herself thin keeping track of all of them. That wouldn't have been the case had it just been John and Patsy and Burke, and they knew it.

    Put yourself in their place that morning - instead of having to talk to and make eye contact with the police, they put their attention elsewhere - to their friends. Patsy sat surrounded by her children's physician and her friends, who were comforting her - not especially conducive to police questioning, poor thing. Due to not enough police presence in the house, John was actually able to disappear into the basement without anyone knowing about it. The calling of the friends was not a spur of the moment thing - it was deliberate, and the friends were used as a distraction from police scrutiny.

    Having said that, I do agree that police procedures were not followed that morning. Had they been, I sincerely doubt we would all have ever met on the JBR forums and we wouldn't be here today. I also believe that had they been, the Ramseys would have been in prison 10 years ago. In defense of the police, the Ramseys were wealthy and respected citizens of Boulder, probably with some influence. They were given special privilege status, and that was the biggest mistake the BPD made. In the days, weeks, months, and years following the initial breach of protocol by Linda Arndt et al, the BPD acted responsibly and, probably, went overboard to cover all their bases.

    It's a fact that the crime scene was pretty much destroyed, both by JR when he picked JBR up and carried her upstairs (deliberately, I believe, in order to further mess up the crime scene just in case he missed something when he staged the scene in the first place), by all the people who were in the house, and by police not enforcing procedures.
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
    the philosophy which does not laugh,
    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---

  11. #35
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    I do believe it was all arranged before the 911 call.

    For me, JonBenét's body was found in her own home. The three Ramseys were still in it. The three Ramseys should have been removed from their house, and taken to the Boulder Police Station; under protest or whatever (?). The friends should have been sent home, whether it was a kidnapping, or not. They were in the way of a police investigation.

    The Ramsey's psychology worked for them. They planned it well.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  12. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watching You
    Or, the caller might have been the kidnapper, had there been a kidnapper. If my daughter had been kidnapped, I would have grabbed that phone in hope it was the kidnapper or my daughter calling.
    I don't think so WY. I think if it had been your daughter, like the rest of us, when the phone rang, you would have turned to the police and said, "it might be THEM - what should I do? - should I answer it? - what do I say if it's them?"...



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