Good Christian People

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Amber, Oct 22, 2006.

  1. Amber

    Amber Member

    I was raised a Catholic. My parents were born and bred in Ireland. They would tell me of their school days and how their teachers - priests, monks and nuns- would repeatedly beat them if they hesitated answering a question, let alone got it wrong. Such good loving sadists..I mean Christians.

    I sent my son to the same Catholic school (attached to a church) in England that I went to. Luckily the only sign of sadism when I was there was psychological, and one dodgy teacher who seemed very touchy feely with the girls but seemed to hate the boys - humiliating some of the weaker ones till they cried in front of everyone.

    When my son was there was an arrogant priest who, for example, spent one Holy Communion Day berating the parents for one hour solid, almost foaming at the mouth, about how hypocritical they were and ignored the children whose special day it was. One day he hit my son hard across the head for something another boy did. I resisted the urge to tell this vile man where to go and have regreted not backing up my son ever since.

    One year after my son left, that same man of God was arrested for a series of molestations of young girls whilst at the school. When the police investigated further it turned out he had had several affairs with women in the parish and had fathered a child.

    Yesterday I watched this documentary on BBC world

    Church Crimes

    Watching it I went through various emotions ranging from anger to despair...very similar to how this case makes me feel.

    My point in boring you with all this is that there is a belief that the Ramsey's were good christian people and therefore incapable of being involved in any way shape or form in the death of JBR or any abuse that preceded it.

    There are many many good Christians and catholics but they don't tend to be as vociferous about their religion, wearing it like a badge of honour or a protective suit against any wrongdoing. The Ramseys and supporters like Smit see being good Christians as being automatic and conclusive proof of innocence.

    If ordained priests who choose the church as their vocation and career are capable of such heinous acts than so is anybody else who professes to be a 'good Christian' ad nauseum. IMHO.
     
  2. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    Amber

    I know that is probably hard to share but your point is so important. Thanks for posting that.
     
  3. Show Me

    Show Me FFJ Senior Member

    Nahhh John and Patsy were the perfect Christians....after all they hired the best PR firm to tell us this. :burnedup:

    What is needed is some brave reporter to dig into this pit of lies and expose the political corruption.
     
  4. 1000 Sparks

    1000 Sparks Active Member

    Thanks Amber

    I heard the same from my dad who attended a "good" Catholic School.

    These priests and nuns seem to take their frustrations out on the kids. My dad told of bleeding knuckles because he dropped his pencil.

    Yup, good Christians.
     
  5. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    Didn't BTK (Dennis Raider) teach Sunday School or something? I know he was very active in his church.

    Didn't the Ramseys belong to the Espiscopal church in Boulder that was THE church for movers and shakers, but they were Methodist in Atlanta before and after they moved to Boulder.
     
  6. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    One of my professors was a Catholic-school boy. Twelve years.

    What interested me was he told me that a lot of the teachers weren't priests or nuns at all. They were lay-people.

    Naturally, my question was, "why? Why not teach in public schools? More money right?"

    "Yes, more money. But one of them explained it: 'we teach here because of the discipline they allow us.'"

    I thought, that's sick: he had just told me that these people were willing to take a cut in pay so they could HIT the kids!
     
  7. Spade

    Spade Member

    Among the movers, shakers, AND FIXERS were:

    Peter Hofstrom Assistant DA in charge of office 12/26/96
    Bryan Morgan Hal Haddon's partner
    Mike Bynum John Ramsey's attorney
     
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

    I am going to make a statement here - in the UK, up until recently, corporal punishment was considered run-of-the-mill,especially for boys, thick-headed things that they are (sarcasm). Nowdays, in the UK, the teachers cannot hit the children any more. In the US, corporal punishment ended much earlier, in the 70's, I think. I am not saying it didn't happen at all after that, but it was dying out as a way of discipline. When our UK members talk about physical punishment, they DO NOT mean licks on the rear end, which was common when I was young, but many other cruel things. There is a huge difference between my school and my husband's schools in the UK. He has some tragic but funny stories to tell, but they are also shocking. I don't think there are many schools in the US, Catholic or otherwise, that ever would allow that type of punishment.

    Maybe that teacher meant his statement the way you interpreted it. What I would take it to mean is that the kids in public school are out of control and a teacher can do nothing to stop them, while in private school, especially religious school, one can at least discipline a child verbally, thus can retain control of the classroom.

    What I don't want to see this discussion turned into is a Catholic-bashing session, please.
     
  9. Amber

    Amber Member

    Heymom

    I was/am a Catholic, as are my entire family.

    When I was at school naughty kids (always boys) got the pump - being hit several times hard across the bum with a sports shoe. Now you cannot touch children at all. My Priest was lucky I was gutless enough NOT to press charges when he hit my son. I had vowed never EVER to hit my son as I was hit often and hard by my parents, because that is what the Catholic church taught them about discipline. Yet here was a complete STRANGER hitting my son without my permission (as if I'd ever give it!) which is an assault.

    This is the problem I had with the documentary. This is NOT a Catholic bashing issue. This is a criminal issue. People with the same thought processes as JMK but without the need for publicity, have been shielded and protected from the law by the Vatican...it's nothing to do with religion....nothing. It's criminal Pure & Simple. My Mother once said that the Priests were victims of loose women enticing the priests like the snake in the garden of Eden, so it was NOT the Priest's fault...I think I heard JMK say something similar on LKL.
    I asked her how the little boys enticed them and she went very quiet. My Mother is indoctrinated, thanks to the belt, the whip and the wooden ruler. I think for myself. Yes, there are millions of pious good Catholics and Christians. But there are also thousands of JMKs that use the institution for their own evil ends and are protected in order to protect the institution from law suits and a mass walk out. That's not conjecture, that's fact. It's also a case of mutual survival.

    My 'Priest' who was berating me for going to another church because I disliked his venom and hypocrisy on the lectern, was permanently drunk each night by eight. He is also the one who took the opportunity to grope me at my father's graveside when I broke down. I think my Father is disappointed (where ever he is ) that I didn't turn round and deck him like my father had taught me.

    The Church, like teaching and any other profession that deals with children will attract those like Karr that are attracted to children. Fact. The point of my post is that just because you profess a faith it does not mean you are INCAPABLE of committing a crime....my goodness...that's what confession is for..because we are sinners from the moment we draw breath to the moment we breathe our last- unless you claim to be a good Christian or are a Catholic Priest of course.
    Did you watch the video?
     
  10. Spade

    Spade Member

    Amber

    Excellant post!!! Catagorizing child abuse by priests as "catholic bashing" is similar to catagorizing criticism of Israel as "anti-semitism"....faulty logic at best...intentional ignorance at worst.
     
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    Amber, I am going to watch the video later, thanks for putting that link up. I wasn't denying that these things happened, but every time this subject comes up, everyone jumps in and starts bashing the Church and the Pope, etc. Look, the Catholic Church isn't perfect by any means, but there are hidden pedophiles everywhere there are children, in every denomination, in every religion. I think there is a long-term attack on the Catholic Church from all directions, using whatever means necessary, and I just didn't want to read a long thread of that kind of thing. I think it is a crime, of course, and there are many reasons that many priests are gay and pedophiliac. It's a very complicated issue, including the reality that many of these cases happened years and years ago, before it was known that pedophiles usually cannot be reformed. When people hear about molestations that happened in the 60's, they think of what we know today.

    Anyway, I am defensive about this issue. As a Catholic I feel that I can criticize the Church from the inside, but outsiders don't know the whole story. They hear and see the bad things and not the good. The press is very anti-Catholic and that certainly includes the BBC.

    I'm just going to stop now and go away. I'll watch the show when I get back.

    Oh, and I am sorry about the priest who groped you. He should be removed and arrested.
     
  12. JustChillun

    JustChillun Member

    From Jim Bakker to Jimmy Swaggart, the protestants have quite a legendary bit of indiscretion to their credit as well. Once again it is proven that humans try to live for whom they serve, but can fail. Some fail more flagrantly than others. Some receive more publicity in their attempts and failures. Some just hide behind the mask of their religion (wolves in sheep's clothing). A brat in the faith will not admit to being a brat. They will try to camouflage themselves as a devout follower, all in the name of self preservation...and this is where the Ramseys come into the scenario. They have gone over and above to try and hype the public and to build an image of living a faith which we question the validity of, based upon symptoms rather than upon their words. The lives that they are living call into question at times the very profession of faith that perhaps they have made. So it is with the JBR case.

    Also, I believe I have said it before that Christians are some of the most vulnerable and gullible people as a whole, choosing to believe the good and look for the good in people to the exclusion of wisdom. Although being cautioned to be "as harmless as doves", the average Christian missed the first part of that exhortation-to "be as wise as serpents". Although not necessarily choosing to be like the deceitful, it is good to know their tricks. That is what makes so many of us cry "foul" at the very tactics which have been employed by the Ramseys from day one. To validate my point about gullibility, I would call into view the cases of rampant "Amway Syndrome" in the eighties, where many bible toting Christians believed that Amway was their key to wealth...and there was a group out of Oklahoma who were going from church to church hawking their wares, some type of soy-based nutrition that was to replace your general food intake...they were ultimately busted by the federal government for some type of dirty dealing, after sequestering a lot of suckers to invest their money in the stuff...and I could go on about the lame deals I have seen that target the faithful in the name of financial gain.

    I therefore find it easy to believe that upstanding "Christians" could abuse and kill their own child.
     
  13. Amber

    Amber Member

    As a Catholic I feel that I can criticize the Church from the inside

    Me too;)

    If you watch the video you'll see it's much more recent than the 60's. My Priest was molesting girls AFTER the scandal broke//I'm talking four or five years ago....

    many of these cases happened years and years ago, before it was known that pedophiles usually cannot be reformed.

    Reformed? What about the poor psychologically and emotionally damaged children? Is the institution more important than innocent lives?
    There are NO excuses or justifications. It was a CRIME then and it' a CRIME now...I have a degree in criminal justice, I know about recidivism. Most criminals are labeled from an early age and cannot..actually won't stop. Do we then refuse to jail them? The church by moving priests from parish to parish KNEW that it was incurable...they were not interested in a cure only damage limitation. As a Catholic your faith should not depend on a human, fallible organisation...it depends on you and your own relationship with your maker. A criticism on the way the church acts is not a criticism of the way Jesus acts unless you put the church before Him? IMHO
     
  14. wombat

    wombat Member

    The fact remains that for decades, at least, the Catholic Church covered up rape and sexual abuse of children by priests, sent pedophile priests from one parish to another, and fought victims in court to avoid paying damages. High officials in the church, including John Cardinal Law, who wound up being an assistant to the POPE, covered up this problem to the extent that it can almost be said they condoned it.

    None of this has anything to do with Catholic beliefs or the Eucharist or the sanctity of Mary. It has to do with a corrupt institution that caused generations of pain on its followers. It is one of the reasons churches are empty in Europe and Catholics become Episcopalians in the US.
     
  15. heymom

    heymom Member

    No, of course I don't put the church before Jesus. And I already agreed that these are crimes and should be treated as such. I am not sympathizing with the perps and forgetting the victims. I think it's a horrible tragedy all around, except for the priests who did this and they should just be prosecuted. I am ashamed of the decision to hide this and move priests around. It's come back to the surface as it should have. The priests should do prison time for their crimes.

    I guess what I always see when this subject arises is that people seem to point to the Catholic Church as home to all the perverted people in ministry, and then it goes on to challenge the entire structure from the Pope on down. People will say it's because we don't allow priests to marry. But there are child molesters in every place where children are, sorry to say. I don't think the Catholic Church has any exclusive rights to them.

    Europe's lack of interest in religion goes beyond dissatisfaction with the Catholic Church; it's a general apathy and turning away from faith. The religion in Europe is Humanism and has been for years.

    All the evil in the world has not originated in the Catholic Church, and that is all I am going to say. The Bible says that Christians will always be persecuted for our faith, and the Word of God is true.

    Heymom

    Don't we have a smiley of a cat with its hackles up??? :) :mummy: Well, mummy's the word anyway...
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Hear, hear, wombat. Dead on.

    But I'm not bashing the Catholic Church, I'm bashing any institution which enables the victimization of others to whitewash its image and keep from taking responsibility for that.

    You see, victims of sexual abuse and sexual assault feel RAPED AGAIN when those responsible drag them through the legal system, denying them justice and most of all, TRYING TO BURY THE TRUTH. It's the SECOND time these victims suffer permanent psychological damage from the abuser. I don't know how those priests who are supposed to be devoted servants of god can then stand between victims and the truth with lawyers and lies. It is doubly egregious that those who have presented themselves as teachers of the very commandments that are supposed to be the word of god and command "Thou shalt not bear FALSE WITNESS," shamelessly deny justice to those who have been victmized by their faith in these people.

    I probably wouldn't have even taken up this issue, heymom, but you brought it up. I'm not targeting the Church, I'm targeting anyone who victimizes others, in whatever guise. That people use their positions of power and authority to abuse others is not unique to the Church, but common in the workplace, at schools, in private organizations, and even in families. From the largest conspiracy to the smallest, they all have one thing in common: ENABLERS. They're not willing to go through the cost of doing the right thing when the victims are too young and powerless to fight for themselves. It's truly predatory behavior all around. As long as anyone is willing to make excuses for it, then it will continue. Apparently, that's forever.

    That's exactly what I believed happened to JonBenet. She was too vulnerable, and the cost of doing the right thing by her was deferred when covering it up was easier. Who was going to witness for her? Who would stand up for a murdered child and TELL THE TRUTH? Obviously, NOBODY. NOT HER PARENTS, NOT HER FRIENDS, AND NOT THE DA.

    Amber, I feel your pain. I know how disheartening it is to discover that someone you should be able to trust is nothing but a leach and a fraud. I can only imagine that it's especially painful when that person has used your very faith in god as a tool to abuse you and others. But I would say this to you: we humans are all flawed, regardless of religion or lack thereof. Your faith and link to God are not embodied in any religion. Your religion is a tool in your relationship to God. God does not turn away from you because of anything humans imagine. God is eternal, infinity, and you are, too. That's what Jesus taught.

    PS Oh, I just read what you wrote about the above, Amber, which you said much better yourself. Obviously, I agree. Sorry I missed that before I wrote this.
     
  17. wombat

    wombat Member

    Wow, KoldKase. Tears in my eyes. :heart:
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Heymom, I have heard that said so many times. It's not unique to Catholics. Other Christian religions preach the same.

    But I don't believe anyone here is persecuting Christians. I think you kind of got off topic with that, Heymom.

    I think this was Amber's original intent: to point out that not all people who claim to be Christians are good people incapable of doing such a thing as was done to JonBenet.
     
  19. BluesStrat

    BluesStrat BANNED !!!!!

    I think the whole structure has a lot to do with it, Heymom. And I'm not just pointing the finger at child abuse. We had a nun in our family and she told us decades ago about a Catholic retreat in Michigan where nuns went to have their babies, fathered by priests. I also know of two priests who had affairs with married women in their parish. A great percentage of sexual conduct by priests could be stopped if they were allowed to marry. Their wives would put an end to it!

    And by the way, a little known fact is there ARE married priests in the Catholic church. Many priests left the Catholic church because they wanted to get married, and most of them became priests in the Episcopal church. Because of the severe shortage of priests, the Catholic church has an "amnesty" program where those priests can return to the church, and they don't have to get divorced to do it.
     
  20. wombat

    wombat Member

    Also, if you are already married, you can become a priest, and you stay married afterwards, of course. (If you are a man...) I just went to a christening where the Father talked about his grandchildren!

    Whatever, what people are saying here is that the topic is that the Ramsey's professed Christianity was used by them as a shield against the truth, a subversion of the teaching of their religion (especially Ms. Patsy - help me Jesus!).
     
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