Holly Smith on Ramsey case

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Jayelles, Nov 14, 2006.

  1. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Thanks to Candy for finding this. How true is this statement?

    http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/...n=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1
     
  2. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
     
  3. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    This is a FANTASTIC article.

    Here is the last paragraph:

    A lawyer for the Ramsey family did not return our phone calls. But the Ramseys have always denied that JonBenet suffered any kind of prior abuse and point out her pediatrician never saw anything indicating abuse, either.

    This claim by the Ramseys has always bothered me.

    How could JonBenet pediatrician know about any vaginal scarring unless he did a pelvic exam on her up to a month before the killing.

    Wasn't her scarring fairly recent? As in weeks old?

    As far as any scarring that was older, again, how would the pediatrician know unless he did a complete pelvic exam? I have never heard of a pediatrician doing a pelvic exam on a 6 year old unless he was looking for some sort of vaginal trauma or problems.
     
  4. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    You're right, Tricia, this is a great article.

    Regarding the fecal stains in JB's underwear - to be fair, there could be another explanation for them. Most parents, especially mothers, teach their children good hygiene - how to take care of themselves after going to the bathroom. From accounts I have read, Patsy was less than responsible about teaching her children good hygiene habits. For that matter, Patsy didn't seem all that concerned about her own hygiene at times, by her own account of putting yesterday's clothing on over an unwashed body on Christmas morning.

    Kids often get skid marks in their drawers from not wiping themselves adequately. It doesn't necessarily mean they are being sexually molested - that's only one possible explanation for it. I'm not saying JB wasn't being assaulted, I'm saying the skid marks don't prove it. The autopsy results, however, do indicate prior activity of some kind in JB's vaginal vault.

    I'm not sure why, after laundering, those stains would still be there, though, and the underwear put back in JB's drawers that way. There are many fine laundry aids available to remove those stains. Some people don't like to use bleach, and that's okay, but there are other stain removal products that work just fine.
     
  5. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    Poop in the panties ergo sexual abuse. Careful!

    I'd like to hear more about the decor that didn't look like a child's room. No doubt the decor had more to do with Patsy than JonBenet.

    The sexual aspect of this case is like one branch on a tree; it's one symptom among many. The trunk of the tree and the motive for the murder is the psychological make up of Patsy that led to her decorating the bedroom with images of who Patsy wanted JonBenet to be as well as giving her liscense to diddle.
     
  6. BluesStrat

    BluesStrat BANNED !!!!!

    You're right WY, and this would be a good question for LHP. I doubt she was doing laundry in cold water without detergent.

    The reporter should have asked Holly Smith if she noticed a package of large Bloomies in that drawer.
     
  7. tylin

    tylin Banned

    Excellent article! :justice:

    The little stash of candy was probably one of the only things JBR had control of.
     
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

    I don't like this statement: It could indicate previous injury or infection, a sign of abuse, or nothing at all.

    I don't think her injuries indicated "nothing at all." I also don't think a pediatrician who had "nothing at all" to cover up for would lock away his records and never turn them over to police.
     
  9. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    What I take away from this interview is two things. One is that, contrary to many intruder-theorists positions on the subject, it was true that, to a stranger to the house, the house was indeed "big and it was meandering." An intruder walking in would have experienced feelings of intimidation, of taking too many risks in not being able to navigate in the dim and the dark as would have been possible with a simple and small house layout. Staging a child's murder, in a "big" and "meandering" house, would have meant an immediate problem in the major sense that the child victim could know more about how to navigate an escape from an intruding killer than the killer would have known about how follow the victim.

    The other thing I take away is that the evidence mounts for John's tight control over how much he would let Patsy spend, and by extension, how much Patsy used JonBenet's pageant career and JonBenet in general as a way of getting her hands on John's money without specifically begging for it for herself. How does this appear evident to me? Simple: JonBenet had many fecal-stained pairs of underwear. What does that mean? It means that Patsy, who in theory had the ability to literally go out and buy new pairs of underwear every week, was instead inclined to keep washing the same pairs, even when it was obvious to a stranger's naked eye that the underwear were not getting washed well. In my opinion, this may mean that Patsy was unwilling to upset John by making him confront the fact that his precious daughter JonBenet had a sanitary problem which highlighted Patsy's own negligence in correcting and dealing with it. Remember: Patsy did not work. She had absolutely no compelling priorities in her life that would have kept her from spending the time to help JonBenet with the physical issues that led to most of her underwear getting stained.

    It may seem like a small thing, but those fecal-stained underwear, and the too-large underwear, are mute witnesses of something having gone on in that house other than an occasional improper wipe and a mother's story about not noticing or caring about a cousin's gift being worn by the wrong person. Money spent could have solved all of that, both in paying for fresh underwear every day and in buying a child her own set of Bloomies since she wanted them so very badly. Yet this relatively insignificant amount of money was not spent by the person who had every reason to spend it. Why? Why Not?
     
  10. heymom

    heymom Member

    I found it odd that a little girl of 6 would not want her privacy enough that she would stay potty trained, so that others would not have to help her in the toilet. At age 3, children have no sense of privacy and are quite happy to allow just about anyone to help them in the potty. By age 5, and certainly by age 6, little girls will scream if anyone walks in on them. There is something very odd going on for a little girl of 6, who is being dressed up in beautiful clothing that she ostensibly would be happy to wear (I'm saying IF it weren't only for her mother's satisfaction) NOT being fussy about her underwear. Boys are much more likely to have those stains, because they rarely take enough time to clean themselves well. Maybe JonBenet was a very un-fussy little girl who did hurry and thereby messed up her underwear.

    Sometimes children will be fecally incontinent because of stomach problems, then they get so horrified and ashamed that they hold in their poop, which can cause constipation and further leakage. Passing large movements can then stretch the muscles enough that the child may not feel any leakage from then on. It can be a very difficult cycle to break.

    Another possibility is that JonBenet felt dirty from the abuse, and so she subconsciously made herself dirty to match her psychological state.

    Patsy may have wanted to punish JonBenet for her carelessness or lapse in potty use by keeping the underwear that were stained. She may also have been cheap in her own way - if they undies were relatively new, why throw them away? I have found that type of stain to be quite difficult to remove and Patsy was not doing all the household laundry, was she? Obviously Nedra didn't show her how to manage a household, given the condition of that house from photographs. And that was WITH a maid!!

    We just will never know what was in Patsy's mind. And for that matter, we'll never know just what happened in that house on that night.
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Member


    I am disappointed in Holly Smith, that she didn't make more of a hue and cry about being removed from this case.

    I cannot believe we are all just hearing about this now, although there was some talk about soiled underwear on the floor of JonBenét's bedroom.

    I agree with you WN. There is something just not right about this whole scene you have stated above.
     
  12. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    I remember reading in the PR 6/98 interview that the portfolios and pageant dresses were kept in the guest bedroom Nedra used. There were probably closets in different rooms with them also.
     
  13. Show Me

    Show Me FFJ Senior Member

    I agree!

    My guess is JonBenet's underwear was stained so often the stains were permanently set in unless you bleached the underwear to death. i was fortunate that both my girls, once potty trained, stayed that way.

    I think the oversized underwear was to cover up the diaper pullups.

    Will Woody sue this woman also????

    How much money does she have? More than two nickels?
     
  14. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    I don't know what school toilets are like in the US, but there was a real stooshy here a few years ago about the terrible conditions of school toilets. The main complaints were that there was frequently no toilet paper or hand towels with the result that pupils were choosing to "hold on" rather than use the toilets. Another complaint was that vandalism in the toilets meant that schools were choosing to lock some of the toilets during certain hours and pupils were restricted in finding one which was unlocked. An add-on consequence of this was that pupils were reducing their fluid intake so that they wouldn't need to go to the toilet at all.

    It was horrendous. I remember as a pupil in primary school that the school toilets were ghastly, but I was a home-lunch and I was able to train my bladder accordingly. In secondary school the toilets weren't so bad and I didn't have a problem using them. By the time my nieces went to school (they went to the same school as I did), things had deteriorated and my sister used to supply my nieces with little one-use soap leaves and toilet paper because there was frequently none.

    I'm just offering this as an explanation as to why a 6 year old might have skiddies in her underwear - lack of school toilet paper? Maybe this isn't a problem in the US. I think it's certainly less of a problem here nowadays. Certainly not in the school where I teach where the toilets are very nice.
     
  15. heymom

    heymom Member

    I don't know about public schools, but in a small charter school like the one JonBenet and Burke attended, toilet paper would not have been a problem. But your story is pretty horrendous. Locked toilets? What good is that? Why not just torture the kids instead? It's quicker and achieves better results. Was that when it was still OK to hit kids over there? My hubby tells some awful stories, which are funny in a black-comedy sort of way.
     
  16. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    There was a huge stink here about the locked toilets (pun intended). I remember when I taught at a previous school - a huge, rough comprehensive. It was at the beginning of term and I had a class of newstarts. One girl was a traveller (tinker family) and I'd just got the class settled down when she announced in a big unabashed voice "Aw Miss, Ah need the toilet". As was the school policy, I issued her with a chitty which gave her permission to be out of class (lots of behavioural problems at this school) and directed her along the corridor to the nearest girl's toilets. Off she went, but she was soon back dancing from one leg to the other. "Miss, thurr loaked". I couldn't leave the class and all the kids were new so the best I could do was direct her to alternative girl's toilets on the next floor up. Off she went again - in an obvious hurry. Poor kid. % minutes later she was back again, only this time she didn't come into the classroom. Instead we saw her face pressed against the glass in the classroom door - a picture of abject misery. It was disgraceful. In the end, I had to leave the class for a moment whilst I borrowed a pupil from the class next door to take her swiftly to some toilets in the PE block which would definitely be open. If there had been any incidents during my brief absence, I could have been suspended.

    There was one set of toilets at my last school which the kids nicknamed "Bosnia".
     
  17. Amber

    Amber Member

    Does the Human Rights Charter mention access to toilets?

    I read that Rumsfeld sanctioned the restriction of bathroom facilities to the inmates at Guantanamo Bay as a form of torture. Are you sure the school is not breaking the Geneva Convention? :sleuth:
     
  18. heymom

    heymom Member

    I am willing to bet you have lots of stories in a similar vein! Of course in the U.S. that incident would generate a class-action lawsuit...

    :nsf:
     
  19. Amber

    Amber Member

    Here's an idea - why not just make them all wear PULL -UPS>? :tsmile:
     
  20. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    There was a big enquiry into it. I'm sure you'd find information on Google about it. It was reported on the BBC. It was a national scandal - but one we all knew about.

    Alas, it came back to the vandals. There were loads of cases of vandals setting fire to the toilets and kids getting beaten in the toilets ... some kids were actually deliberately choking the toilets too. It's the same old story - a few spoil it for everyone.
     
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