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  1. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    I have just started reading the book. Manipulative Miss Brodie already gives me the creeps.
    Was this one of Patsy Ramsey's favorite books? Where does she talk about it - in DOI (I haven't read it yet)?
    I would need to check out DOI rashomon but here's Steve's take on it.

    Steve Thomas -JonBenét

    Page 77

    *snip*
    Her talent performance for Miss West Virginia had been a moving soliloquy from The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, but there was a problem in getting copyright clearance to use it on a national stage. Linda McLean told us that she and Patsy wrote an original three-minute speech, entitled Deadline, about censorship, and it won a nonfinalist talent award in Atantic City and a $2,000 scholarship
    Miss West Virginia title (1977).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #98

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    Hi rashomon, I think the only mention in DOI of TPOMJB is when Steve Thomas and LE interviewed PR's high school teacher, Linda McLean about the book. I believe she wrote a book also which I haven't read yet.

    Please share your thoughts, what do you think about the book so far?
    Last edited by Cranberry; March 4, 2007, 3:35 pm at Sun Mar 4 15:35:48 UTC 2007. Reason: spelling

  3. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranberry
    Hi rashoman, I think the only mention in DOI of TPOMJB is when Steve Thomas and LE interviewed PR's high school teacher, Linda McLean about the book. I believe she wrote a book also which I haven't read yet.

    Please share your thoughts, what do you think about the book so far?
    I enjoyed the exchange between you and Paradox on the book, Cranberry, Your posts were excellent.

    I'll need to send away for the DVD and watch it again. Haven't seen it in any of the stores. Don't need the book right now. I'll just read over your posts again.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  4. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    The confusion you speak of is of gender or sexual identity. The activeness or latency of the sex drive is another thing. I think Patsy had no gender identity problems. I think she was sexually inert, undeveloped or repressed, possibly due to trauma. More likely her lack of a sex drive is related to other split-off personality factors that remained unconscious due to a split in personality development in childhood.

    The discovery of penises through art and indescent exposure, the repugnance of intercourse and it's role in marriage and morality are discussed in TPOMJB.
    Patsy told her housekeeper that her sex life with John suffered since her cancer treatment. Imo this is something else than never having been interested in sex.

  5. #101

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    I think the Sandy side of Patsy attempted to kill the Jean Brodie side of Patsy 12/25/'96.
    But wouldn't such a psychological mechanism have been more consistent with Patsy turning herself in to the police? For Sandy Stranger fingered her manipulative (ex)teacher Miss Jean Brodie to the headmistress, so why didn't the 'Sandy side' of Patsy turn the 'Miss Brodie' side of Patsy over to the police?

  6. #102
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    Because "the police" were outside Patsy's mind.

    Patsy was dealing with a greater authority; her God.

    Patsy turned herself into her God (as in surrender) via JonBenet.
    Last edited by Paradox; March 13, 2007, 8:24 pm at Tue Mar 13 20:24:58 UTC 2007.

  7. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    Patsy told her housekeeper that her sex life with John suffered since her cancer treatment. Imo this is something else than never having been interested in sex.
    Her sex life probably stopped after her cancer treatment. Her ability to perform for John stopped, another link to John gone, another hold on him gone. The sexualization of JonBenet accelerated after the treatment. Patsy's latent authentic sexuality was transfered to the object. John lost on both accounts.

    I think Patsy's admission to the housekeeper/confessor was whitewasing.

  8. #104

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    I think Patsy's admission to the housekeeper/confessor was whitewasing.
    I don't think it was, since Patsy could simply have kept her mouth shut, not telling LHP anything about her problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    Because "the police" were outside Patsy's mind.

    Patsy was dealing with a greater authority; her God.

    Patsy turned herself into her God (as in surrender) via JonBenet.
    Why would Patsy feel the need to 'sacrifice' JonBenet? What would she have 'gained' from it?

    Jmpo, but I don't see a shred of a 'Sandy Stranger side' in Patsy.
    Sandy is a very independent spirit, extremely intelligent and astute, an excellent judge of character. Sandy was the girl of the Brodie set whom Miss Brodie could never manipulate, who always saw through her with her X-Ray like look. Miss Brodie sensed this, hence her threat to Sandy: "one day you will go too far".

    Sandy analyzed Miss Jean Brodie's like a scientist would analyze a beetle under a microscope. She never fell for Miss Brodie's silly "you girls will be the creme de la creme" mantra.

    Despite Miss Brodie's belief, her influence on the other girls in which she took so much pride ("give me a girl at an impressionable age and she's mine for life") was only short-lived.
    Even a person like Rose, far 'meeker' than Sandy, when finishing school, "shook off Miss Brodie's influence like a dog shakes pond-water from its coat".
    Sandy recognized that Miss Brodie had fascistoid character traits, using her position as a teacher to act out her illusion of grandiosity by abusing her (chosen) pupils into becoming her admiring audience. Brodie created a stage for herself where she enacted the drama of her life for her eager audience, a drama probably more based on fiction that on fact.

    Sandy was of the opinion that Miss Brodie was a unconscious lesbian.
    She also thought Miss Brodie's sexual feelings were 'satisfied by proxy', in that she arranged for Rose to become Teddy Lloyd's lover. The supreme irony is that instead of Rose, it was Sandy who ended up sleeping with Teddy Lloyd, although he thought she was ugly, and even cruelly told her so.

    Large parts of the book are seen through Sandy Stranger's perspective. She thought of JB as ridiculous, as a middle-aged (although no doubt charismatic) spinster who spiced up her humdrum existence by creating her own 'reality'.
    [Paradox]I think the Sandy side of Patsy attempted to kill the Jean Brodie side of Patsy 12/25/'96.
    [Rashomon]But wouldn't such a psychological mechanism have been more consistent with Patsy turning herself in to the police? For Sandy Stranger fingered her manipulative (ex)teacher Miss Jean Brodie to the headmistress, so why didn't the 'Sandy side' of Patsy turn the 'Miss Brodie' side of Patsy over to the police?
    [Paradox]Because "the police" were outside Patsy's mind.
    But then why didnt Patsy kill herself if the Sandy side of Patsy wanted to kill the Jean Brodie side of Patsy? Then it would not have been outside Patsy's mind.

  9. #105
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    Actually, it was Sandy who was most influenced by Brodie. She put a stop to Brodie influencing other girls, thereby attempting to put a stop to Brodie's narcissistic influence on Sandy herself; unconscious transference psych 101. Sandy of course could not pull it off. She then chose a God and entered it's circle (church) of influence as a substitute for Brodie. No, she did not have an independent spirit, she was Catholic through and through.

    As far as killing herself: many people do when faced with these conflicts. The fight or flight mechanism can lead to violence going out or going in or both.

    As far as not seeing Sandy in Patsy; Sandy was a split-off persona image, part of Patsy's private life. The one thing that leaked through is psychology. Sandy was known for it, as was Spark, and Patsy reveals her reading and/or musings on the subject in DOI, several times.

    Patsy used JonBenet as angel as a sort of death line instead of life line. Patsy was afraid of death and judgement. She sent JonBenet ahead of her as part of a self serving, self created fantasy that she herself voiced openly; JonBenet is in heaven awaiting her mother's arrival, it won't be long.

    Patsy's goal was to live out a fantasy. That fantasy involved her own death, but someone else had to die to make that passage easier or worthwhile.

  10. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    Actually, it was Sandy who was most influenced by Brodie. She put a stop to Brodie influencing other girls, thereby attempting to put a stop to Brodie's narcissistic influence on Sandy herself; unconscious transference psych 101. Sandy of course could not pull it off. She then chose a God and entered it's circle (church) of influence as a substitute for Brodie. No, she did not have an independent spirit, she was Catholic through and through..
    I can't see that it in the book. Part of the fascination of the book was for me the inner distance Sandy had towards Brodie, and how she saw through her. Sure she was fascinated by Brodie, but did this teacher succeed in shaping Sandy's character? Not at all imo. Brodie even seemed to be angry at Sandy because she felt that Sandy did not swallow everything she said hook, line and sinker. Brodie felt uneasy being watched and scrutinized by Sandy, hence her remark that Sandy should get glasses because that stare of hers was not normal.

    In terms of independent spirit: that Sandy chose to become a Catholic nun doesn't mean she lacked an independent spirit. Just think of famous nuns like Teresa of Avila or Hildegard of Bingen - very independent spirits.
    I was raised by Catholic nuns and also have met quite a few independent spirits among them.
    Sandy Stranger is a very complex figure. As opposed to Miss Brodie, Sandy has an enigmatic quality about her, and there are parts in her soul which the narrator does not lay open to the reader.
    Patsy's goal was to live out a fantasy. That fantasy involved her own death, but someone else had to die to make that passage easier or worthwhile.
    Why do you think Patsy wished to die?

    Patsy used JonBenet as angel as a sort of death line instead of life line. Patsy was afraid of death and judgement. She sent JonBenet ahead of her as part of a self serving, self created fantasy that she herself voiced openly; JonBenet is in heaven awaiting her mother's arrival, it won't be long.
    If Patsy as a Christian was afraid of death and judgement, then why did she then commit a severe crime which is considered a violation of one of the Ten Commandments: "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Wouldn't eternal damnation have been waiting for Patsy then?

    Jmpo, but I believe it was exactly the other way round: when Patsy realized what she had done in a rage to her daughter, with the child dying as a result of that tragic attack, she later tried telling herself that it was something which was meant to be, something which was predestinated. She even let this shine through in DOI without openly admitting that it was she who killed JB, when she spoke abut 'unconsciously weaving death' into the Christmas tree by using ribbons the color of Lent.
    For if what happened was going to happen anyway, if it was predestinated, then it exonerates the perp, as she becomes a mere instrument. Patsy sought exoneration.

  11. #107
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    I can't do anything with you or for you.

  12. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    I can't do anything with you or for you.
    That's quite obvious.
    There are too many contradictions in your own argumentation imo.

    For example, you claim that the Sandy Stranger side of Patsy wanted to kill the Miss Brodie side in Patsy by killing JonBenet.

    In your next post you suddenly say that Patsy was afraid of death and judgement which is why she sent JonBenet ahead of her as an angel. Not only does this not mesh with your previous Sandy Stranger explanantion, but you would also have to explain why killing JB and "sending JB her ahead" would help minimize Patsy's fear of judgement. Having committed homicide should maximize it, don't you think so?

    But I suppose you have some 'sacrifice' scenario in mind. Human sacrifices were used in ancient times to appease God (or the gods). But imo alleging that Patsy (who was raised a modern Christian), resorted to such an archaic ritual is a mere fantasy of yours.
    So Patsy told herself: today is the day I've got to do it, I have to sacrifice her. Arriving late from a party, with packing to do for next day's early morning flight, she had to squeeze in 'sacrificing' JB into her crammed schedule. Yeah, right.

    RDIs often comment on how outlandish all those IDI theories are. And indeed they are. But there exist RDI theories which are every bit as outlandish, sometimes even more.

    "The Prime of Miss Jane Brodie" is a fascinating book, but to infer that just because Patsy could relate to the book, decades later her psyche used it as some kind of 'instruction manual' in the killing of JonBenet is stretching it beyond all probability. Jmpo.



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