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  1. #1

    Default "Mothers Who Kill" Tonight 9 pm EST

    The name of the series is "Notorious" it appears. It's on the Biography Channel, which I guess you have to have the fancy cable set up, as the channel is 129 here.

    They showed pictures of Andrea Yates, Susan Smith, and some other woman I didn't recognize.

    Might be interesting. Just a heads up.

    OK, found this:

    Mothers Who Kill.
    Wednesday, January 3 9:00pm ET
    Thursday, January 4 1:00am ET


    A mother kills her child. It's a crime as old as Greek mythology, yet it's just as shocking today when the stories of Andrea Yates, Marilyn Lemak, and Susan Smith show up in the news. When women kill their children, are they always insane or do some of them make clear-cut, cold-blooded choices? We pose the question to psychiatrists, prosecutors, and guilty mothers themselves and find some surprising insights and answers.

    http://www.biography.com/notorious/n...episode=168848

    Also, while googling this, I see there is a Biography Channel for Canada and another for Australia. So maybe if you live in those countries you can google it up and see when it might be on for you.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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  2. #2
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    For those in NYC, it is on channel 160 (Cablevision) at 9 pm

    Just check your local biography channel and it comes right up

    Thanks KK
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

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  3. #3

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    Bump for those just checking in.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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  4. #4
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    Give me a heads up when they have a segment on groups of individuals that kill.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    Give me a heads up when they have a segment on groups of individuals that kill.
    hahahahahaha.....

    Diane Downs was an interesting case...killed one daughter and wounded another daughter and paralysed her toddler boy. Downs is in prison.

    Blamed it on a shaggy haired stranger who tried to take her car...said he reached in and starting shooting the kids...Downs had a shot in her arm...the oldest surviving daughter testified against her mother....was very traumatic.

    Ann Rule wrote the book, 'Small Sacrifices' about Downs.

  6. #6

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    Thanks for the heads up. Now if I can just stay awake for another hour.

  7. #7

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    OK, I took a few notes. It was an interesting show. There were differing opinions on the four women's cases presented, of course, about their psychological mindset, but I did learn something. I kept wishing Paradox was watching, but here's the gist of it:

    The show highlighted four cases of mothers who kill their children: Andrea Yates, which everyone pretty well knows how that whole case went down; Susan Smith, ditto; and two other cases I hadn't heard of before, one a young hispanic mother in Florida who killed her baby girl, and one a mother who drugged and smothered her 3 children, can't remember where this one happened.

    The show listed several categories of mothers who kill:

    1. Altruistic: almost half of mothers who kill fall into this category, thinking they're doing their child/children a favor by killing them. Yates fell into this category. I think of Patsy on CNN staying that JonBenet will never know cancer, losing a child....

    2. Spousal revenge/Medea complex: these mothers murder their children out of spite when they feel rejected or wronged by their spouse/the children's father. The mother who drugged and smothered her three children fell into this category, as she had forced her husband into a divorce and then got angry when he took a girlfriend and wouldn't get back together with the mother.

    3. Acutely psychotic: the mother actually doesn't even realize she's harming the child because she's in a delusional state. They didn't have a case to demonstrate this, only mentioned it briefly.

    4. Fatal maltreatment: Munchausen's by Proxy would fall into this category, or shaken baby syndrome.

    5. Unwanted child syndrome: the child is a nuisance to the mother, restricts her goals or freedom. Susan Smith fell into this category, though the psychiatrist speaking and the DA who prosecuted Smith differed on this, as the doctor said Smith fell into the "altruistic" category, but the D.A. said she simply wanted the rich man who didn't want her children, so she offed them with premeditation and purpose. (I agree with the D.A. by the way.)

    I noticed the psychiatrist seemed to have more sympathy for the mothers/child killers, usually focusing on her mental problems and not on her deeds. I have no sympathy for these mothers, I don't care how many sick reasons they give for what they do. Every single one of them knew they were breaking the law, therefore that they were illegally murdering, and the fact that their victims were their children makes it WORSE in my mind, not more reasonable. If they went out and murdered a stranger in the same way, there'd be NO problem convicting and condemning them for their crimes. Why murdering their own children makes it somehow less than cold-blooded murder to some, I have no idea. Andrea Yates will now be treated, forced to take her meds, and she'll be out having more babies if they release her. And for those who don't think that will happen, it happened last year with another STILL YOUNG mother who murdered her children and then was released within a couple of years from the mental hospital where she'd been sent as "insane." People were outraged. Me, too.

    The psychiatrist doing most of the talking was Dr. Phillip Resnick, who has spent 4 decades studying these types of cases, it was said.

    The only other thing of note that I can think of, which interested me because some details about Susan Smith's life I had never heard before, is that Susan Smith's mother knew about her step-father molesting her from the age of 16 and had told Susan she would not leave the step-father. Susan also continued to have sex with her step-father into adulthood, even having sex with him not long before she murdered her children. Susan also had told her boss, the bachelor she slept with and who rejected her, that she had slept with his father, as well.

    Oh, another interesting thing was that each of these mothers was on some kind of drug therapy at the time of the murders. It was mentioned that they all had some kind of trauma in their lives prior to murdering their children: Susan had attempted suicide several times in her teen years and was rejected by her boss shortly before her murders; the mother of three was described by all neighbors and friends as a wonderful, devoted mother, but was known to be controlling and prior to her murders, was depressed and regretting her decision to push her husband out of her life when she saw him in another relationship; Andrea Yates had serious mental illness from post partum depression after her 5th child was born six months before she murdered; the young Florida mother had been hospitalized in her teens with mental illness and was a single mom who claims she was hallucinating, but she took illegal drugs, as well as prescription drugs.

    I don't know if any of this relates to JonBenet's murder and Patsy, but maybe Paradox does. I do wonder if Patsy's cancer and treatments, plus turning 40, could have been her stressors, especially if she found out shortly before Christmas a male in her family was molesting JonBenet. If Patsy herself had a history of such abuse, it might have caused her to snap. Those 3 calls to Dr. Beuf's office on Dec. 17, plus the evidence of prior vaginal injury to JonBenet at autopsy, will always be significant clues to me.
    Last edited by koldkase; January 4, 2007, 8:06 pm at Thu Jan 4 20:06:59 UTC 2007.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #8

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    I'd say Patsy was Munchausen by Proxy with a little psychotic thrown in the mix.

    The boss Susan Smith had the affair was a young man who didn't want to be tied down with kids and rejected Susan....he was a significant trigger when Susan let her kids drive into the water and drown.

  9. #9
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    I've always thought that there were some secrets that will never be heard regarding Don Paugh and his daughters....and I bet Nedra knew!

    Just my own gut feeling.

    He's one of the "hinky" people on my meter.
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

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  10. #10
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    I missed the show. I wonder if the mother who smothered her kids was the one that happened around here?

    Mother 'deeply sorry' after three children found smothered
    Last Updated: Sunday, January 29, 2006 | 6:08 PM ET
    CBC News
    A mother accused of smothering her three young children in southwest Arkansas feels "tremendous remorse," a family priest says.
    Paula Eleazar Mendez, 43, was in jail on Sunday evening after being treated at a hospital for swallowing a toxic substance.
    Police went to her house in De Queen on Saturday morning after getting a call from the children's father in New York. He said his wife telephoned him to say she had killed the children.
    http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/0...ths060129.html
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  11. #11

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    It was Marilyn Lemak, JC. I looked it up and here's a good article on the murder and verdict.

    http://www.brandonshouse.org/Articles/Lemak-3-4-99.htm

    And here's an article that is heartbreaking to read, but discusses some of the murders of children by parents in our society. I'm going to post it in case it gets taken down:

    http://www.brandonshouse.org/Articles/Lemak-3-4-99.htm





    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    An unfathomable crime -- parents who slay their kids
    Elizabeth Fernandez, Chronicle Staff Writer

    Saturday, February 23, 2002



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    A suburban father in Southern California turned his home into a gas chamber this week, killing five of his children, police said, with poison fumes from a charcoal grill in the family living room.

    A housewife and former nurse went on trial this week in Texas for drowning her five children in the family bathtub.

    It happens with appalling frequency, evoking horror and incomprehension -- and the same unanswerable question: How could they kill their own child?

    Since the myth of Medea, who murdered her children after her lover Jason deserted her, filicide has stood as society's most aberrant act. Yet each year,

    hundreds of U.S. children die at the hands of their parents -- deaths triggered by abuse or neglect, mental illness, rage or unbridled revenge.

    In one case that horrified the nation, a trial got under way this week in a Houston courtroom over a 37-year-old housewife and former nurse who confessed to drowning her five children in June.

    But Andrea Pia Yates is hardly alone.

    On Wednesday, Adair Garcia, 30, stoked a barbecue grill in his living room, authorities say, elevating carbon monoxide to fatal levels. Five of his children, 2 to 10 years old, died. Police said Garcia was despondent over marital problems.

    Last month, Oregon fugitive Christian Longo was captured in Mexico and returned to face murder charges in the slayings of his wife and three children.

    The same month, Eric Crutchfield of North Carolina was sentenced to life for the first-degree murder of his 6-year-old daughter, shot point-blank in the back with a .22-caliber rifle, and the wounding of his young son. The children were shot during a weekend visit to Crutchfield's home.

    In December, Socorro Caro, a doting mother in Ventura County, a church- going wife of a respected physician, was convicted of killing her three sons, who were shot while they slept.

    Also in December, Marilyn Lemak, a suburban Chicago mother and former surgical nurse, was convicted of smothering her three young children with her bare hands.

    With stunning regularity, parents fatally shake their children or drown them, suffocate them or set their home ablaze.

    "Parenting is supposed to be a quintessential part of human nature; it is supposed to be instinctive," says Jill Korbin, an anthropology professor and associate dean at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland.

    "These killings are so distressing, we tend to see them as isolated. But this is a more prevalent problem than people think."

    The younger the child, the more vulnerable. In fact, the greatest peril to children under age 5 is their own parent.

    Moreover, the parental hazard carries no gender distinction: Mothers kill their children with nearly the same frequency as fathers. From 1976 to 1999, 30 percent of murdered children under 5 were killed by their mothers and 31 percent by their fathers, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.


    GENDER DIFFERENCES
    Yet there are differences: When men kill their offspring, they are more likely to commit suicide, experts say. Women often attempt suicide, as did the Chicago and Ventura County mothers, but fail, as they did.

    Motives also differ.

    Contemporary family stresses -- financial pressures, marital conflicts, substance abuse, a history of childhood abuse -- often play a role in paternal homicides, experts say.

    "Men almost always have experienced a tremendous loss, lost their jobs, lost the ability to control the family," says Charles Patrick Ewing, a law professor and psychologist at the University of Buffalo and author of "Fatal Families."

    "These are narcissistic, self-centered guys who see themselves as the glue of the family. They feel they have to take their own life, but first, they have to kill the children. To them, it seems rational. They think they can't manage and the family can't manage without them."

    By contrast, he says, women more often kill their offspring because of extreme psychological disturbances.

    "This is very dark stuff," Ewing says. "For a woman to kill her child is the ultimate taboo."


    POSTPARTUM DEPRESSION BLAMED
    This week, Andrea Pia Yates began the fight for her life.

    She has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity in the deaths of her children, ranging from 6 months to 7 years old. Yates, who had been prescribed a drug used to control hallucinations, told officers that she drowned her four sons and one daughter, wrapped their bodies in sheets, then called police.

    The case triggered a national debate over postpartum depression, but experts believe Yates suffered from a more serious and rare condition -- postpartum psychosis, a mental break, a descent into distorted reality that has befallen numerous other women.

    "They have the belief that life is terrible, that (they) did a bad thing bringing the children into it," says Linda Dunlap, a psychology professor at Marist College in Poughkeepsie, N.Y.

    "This was a high-risk situation, yet it was ignored on many levels. It happens all too often. Come on, people, we have enough evidence that child homicides can and do happen."

    As part of that psychotic break, some mothers twistedly believe they are saving their children's souls or are sparing them from life without her.

    During last year's trial in Illinois, a defense expert testified that Marilyn Lemak believed she was performing an "altruistic" act by smothering her three children.

    "She perceived herself as a loving mother tenderly taking her children into another existence," said psychiatrist Phillip Resnick, according to published accounts.

    In another common form of parental killings, infanticide, scores of newborns each year are tossed into the trash, a phenomenon that psychologist Ewing calls "disappearing disposable babies."

    Typically, he says, the mother is very young and in denial over her pregnancy, concealing it.

    "A lot of these babies never show up, the mothers get away with murder," says Ewing.

    Children are also in peril from what psychiatrist Catherine Lewis calls "discipline gone awry."

    "One mother, who was 24 and had 6 children, said she hit her 2 1/2-year-old because he was frowning and wet his pants and needed discipline," says Lewis of the University of Connecticut Health Center. "She used a closed fist and she made his internal organs rupture, and he died."

    Some parents, Lewis says, simply want their children out of the way.

    "A woman was getting married, her fiance didn't like her son, so she killed him and said an intruder did it," says Lewis, who studied 56 women and found that 30 were psychotic when they killed, 26 were not.

    "Society asks the global question, 'How can a woman kill her child?' " Lewis says. "There isn't just one answer. . . . It can be because she genuinely believes her child is better off dead. It can be because the woman doesn't want the child. Or it can be because she was disciplining the child and went too far."


    DOMESTIC VIOLENCE PLAYS ROLE
    Domestic violence also lies at the heart of many child homicides.

    This month, Ukrainian immigrant Nikolay Soltys, 27, accused of the brutal August slayings of his wife, the unborn child she carried, his 3-year-old son and four other relatives, hanged himself in a Sacramento jail.

    Soltys told authorities his wife, Lyubov, 23, had been disrespectful to him.

    Relatives said Soltys regularly beat his wife.

    "It's the ultimate act of power and control," says Kenneth Theisen, an advocate against domestic violence at Bay Area Legal Aid who has worked with about 8,000 abused women. "It's all about the abuser trying to control the woman, to teach a lesson, to remind them that they are in charge. They say if you leave me, not only will I kill you, but I'll kill your children and myself. "

    Numerous times, in domestic disputes, fathers set fire to their homes, trapping their children inside. A Glendale man, Jorjik Avanesian, apparently angry because his wife refused to divorce him, was found guilty in 1999 of setting an apartment fire that killed his wife and their six children.

    In an earlier case in San Francisco, Kevin Carter set aflame an Ingleside district house, killing himself and his two children, ages 4 months and 14 months. The children's mother had obtained a restraining order against Carter.

    "He convinced her to leave the house on an errand," says Theisen. "He wanted her to live knowing he killed himself and their children. It's perverted logic: They think she loves the children so much, she'll have to live with having lost what she loves the most."

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Show Me
    I'd say Patsy was Munchausen by Proxy with a little psychotic thrown in the mix.

    The boss Susan Smith had the affair was a young man who didn't want to be tied down with kids and rejected Susan....he was a significant trigger when Susan let her kids drive into the water and drown.
    (And thank heavens you know how to spell! I forgot to look Munchausen's up, but I knew I was wrong. :computer: )

    The DA in S.C. who prosecuted Smith said that in order to save herself and her two children, all she had to do was pull up the handbreak. Instead, she opened the door, got out of the car, closed the door, and watched it roll into the lake with the babies inside.

    No H e l l H O T enough....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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