The Doctor is IN!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Tricia, Apr 2, 2002.

  1. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Ask Dr. Bea

    Ladies and Gentlemen. The Doctor is in the house.

    Please welcome our newest member Dr. Bea.

    Dr. Bea is a respected clinical psychologist who deals with families in crisis, is very familiar with court system and spends most of her time refusing to psychoanalyze yours truly. (lol) Dr. Bea is also one of my best friends.

    Dr. Bea has agreed to answer our questions concerning human nature. More to the point, she will answer questions concerning behavior we have witnessed in the JonBenet Ramsey case.

    HOWEVER......

    Dr. Bea cannot and will not diagnose or comment on people involved directly with this case. Further Dr. Bea is not familiar with the case and has no position in the case. In other words she will not say "Patsy is a borderline personality" or "Patsy's behavior is normal" .

    What Dr. Bea will do is comment on behaviors. Such as, "Based on the limited information I would test this person for borderline personality disorder" or "that type of behavior wouldn't raise a red flag to me"...

    I would love to tell you Dr. Bea's real name. Unfortunately you will have to trust me that she is who she says she is. You all know if I posted Dr. Bea's real name a certain obsessive phone calling, stalking (ask Mr. Foster) swamp thing would immediately harass her.

    I can attest to Dr. Bea's ability and knowledge. Although we live thousands of miles apart it is like we live next door. Dr Bea and I have been close for years and we talk constantly on the phone.

    Dr Bea will try and check in a couple of times a week to answer your questions. Please be patient. She has a heavy patient load and court docket as well.

    Please use this thread to pose questions to Dr. Bea. You need to provide as much information as possible when you ask your question. For example. I asked Dr. Bea if it was considered normal behavior to dress your 5 year old daughter up in sexually suggestive dresses and enter her in beauty pageants. She had to ask me about 10 follow up questions about the pageants themselves and the dresses . Long story. So remember as much background info as possible. Dr. Bea knows nothing about this case other than JBR was murdered, found in her basement and no one has been charged.

    I did ask Dr. Bea about a 6 year old defecating in her bed. Dr. Bea said this is an absolute sign of extreme stress. Extreme stress. Very disturbing she said.

    Ok put on your thinking caps and go for it.

    Here is the disclaimer. I would suggest you all take the time to read it.

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/drbea.html

    Tricia just called and asked me to edit this post to include the information that Dr. Bea is extremely well-versed in all areas of sexual abuse, and specifically in "false allegations" of sexual abuse, so this is one area where I know many of us will have questions regarding behavioral issues in general with her.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2002
  2. 1000 Sparks

    1000 Sparks Active Member

    -

    WELCOME Dr. Bea...

    Do you think Tristan is borderline nutz or is it the rest of us?

    Thank you very much.
     
  3. Cookie

    Cookie Member

    Welcome!

    Welcome Dr. Bea,

    Is it possible for a family to "appear" successfully normal when, behind closed doors, there exists abnormal behavior (sexual abuse etc)?

    Is it possible for people to "forget" a tragic event, that they were involved in, such as a murder?
     
  4. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Sparky Dr. Bea will tell you that it is the rest of you that are insane and that I am so totally normal that it is frightening.
    You watch.
    You're all nuts
    accept it...

    Cookie great couple of questions.

    I believe Dr. Bea will check in around 2pm her time (east coast). tomorrow, Wed. So line up those questions....

    Tricia
     
  5. Tez

    Tez Member

    Dr. Bea, Welcome!

    Dr. Bea,

    Do you think it is completely normal for a family, whose daughter has just been reported kidnapped and later murdered to send away an older sibling? Do you think it would be distrubing for that older sibling to be away from his/her family after such a tragic event?

    Thank you.

    Tez
     
  6. Camper

    Camper Banned

    Hello Dr. Bea

    This is a burning question that has troubled me for a long time.

    Why would a parent, upon reading a kidnapping note that threatened beheading of THEIR baby if the parents talked to even a stray dog, or called the police, WHY WOULD THAT PARENT PROCEED TO CALL MANY MANY FRIENDS OVER TO THE THE HOUSE THAT MORNING? SEVERAL OF WHOM BEGAN DESTROYING CRIME SCENE EVIDENCE, BY WASHING DISHES AND ROAMING ABOUT THE HOME?

    What would that indicate to you?

    Welcome to the keepers of the flame hide out, er home.
     
  7. Mels

    Mels Member

    Dr. Bea thanks so much for sharing your time, talent, and opinions with us.

    My question is this:

    Is it odd behavior for a loving father to make plans to leave the state within an hour of finding his child murdered in his/her own home? Odd to lay a dead child on a cold floor?

    Knowing that child would be autopsied the following day, I would think a parent would want to be as close to a child during what I would view as a stressful time for the child, though the child be dead.

    Thanks,
    Mels
     
  8. Vic

    Vic Active Member

    Hello Dr. Bea

    What are the main characteristics of a narcissistic/histrionic personality? Are they likely to exaggerate? Would denial be a significant part of their behavior under stressful conditions?

    Sparky, ya stole my question about Tricia!

    Thanks, Dr. and it's good to have you here.
     
  9. Dr. Bea

    Dr. Bea FFJ Senior Member

    To Sparky:

    Of course she's nuts, but no more than anyone else. It's the "normal" people that I worry about the most. Besides, as we get to know each other on this forum, you will likely decide that the old adage that "all shrinks are nuts" is true as well.

    To Cookie:

    You had a two part question: 1) Yes it absolutely possible for a family to appear to be free of difficulty at first glance while hosting an array of psychopathology behind closed doors. Indeed, most clinicians agree that while the actual abuse that family members, especially children, suffer is painful for them, it is how the family and parents respond to that abuse that seems to predict how well a child or family member recovers from abuse. Not having the abuse acknowledged or being blamed for being the recepient of abuse is often as bad as or worse than the actual abusive incident itself.

    2) It is very possible for a person to completely "forget" a tragic event, such as a murder. Persons who are not very psychologically sophisticated (not open to psychological information or explanations for their behavior) are especially prone to deny, forget or transfer their psychological shock horror and pain into physical symptoms, or split off the feelings altogether. The extreme form of this is Dissociative Identity Disorder, so that the individual forms another 'self' as it were, to deal with the painful issue (a la Sybil).


    Tez: I would need more information about the circumstances surrounding the sending away of an older sibling after a tragic family event. For example, some parents might do something like that in order to protect their child from the media scrutiny that usually surrounds something like this. Further, the child might simply be too afraid or traumatized to live in the same home, or to frequent the same places after something like this happens. However, I would wonder about these kinds of reasons for sending away an older sibling away from his or her parents during a time of family crisis when in general, it would seem important for that child to be available to receive emotional support from the parents. Having said that, it may well be that parents of a child who has been murdered may simply be too emotionally traumatized themselves to be able to offer any kind of consistent emotional support and so the child might do better in the care of another trusted family member for the time being.


    Camper: Hard question. I know that parents do unusual things when the life of a child is threatened. In the example that you mentioned, I can imagine being terrified and not daring to risk police involvement, especially if, say I was afraid that there was some extended sort of network that could hurt my family members wherever they went. Therefore, it is not completely out of the realm of possibility that these parents instead telephoned friends for support. Most people when called to a friend's home during a tragedy, try to be helpful. Most people don't know what "crime scene evidence" is, and I myself have washed dishes and otherwise tried to make myself useful during a friend's personal tragedy.

    This is an example of when I would need a great deal more information before I could make a statement any more definitive than what I have already said. Given that most people can't keep secrets, it seems less plausible to me that many many friends would have been called with the sole purpose of doing some kind of "cover-up" because they simply a) would find themselves, at least one of them, finding a need to rid themselves of guilt and b) would not risk their own freedom and family to that extent to help someone else in such a manner.


    Mels: I think that people in a serious crisis behave in very unusual ways. Wanting to escape the situation is not outside of the realm of possibility for a traumatized parent. Behaving in a dream-like state, not knowing what to do with the body of your murdered child, and all of that, is not necessarily horrid or bad. Personally, I have not experienced this (thank goodness) and few people have. It would be useful to examine the grief research that is available about the behavior of parents of murdered children. I know that there is a support group called Parents of Murdered Children. Maybe they can help us with this.
    What is more important and what would shed more light on the family situation, is not the behavior that occurred during the crisis, but instead the behavior that occurred before any tragedy occurred.

    Vic: I used to teach this course at a local university, so be prepared for a long winded talk! First, let's get clear about what a "personality disorder" means. First, a Personality Disorder is not something that you can get and then passes easily or even not so easily (as in major depression, panic attacks, etc.). Instead, it refers to an enduring pattern of a person's inner experiences and outer behaviors that is problematic and/or deviates from the expecations that our general culture has about how to behave. This pattern must be inflexible and pervasive, across a wide range of situations (e.g. you see it at work, you see it in the person's relationships with family members, you see it in the person's views of themselves or the world.) The pattern needs to be long lasting, usually beginning in early adolescence or at the least by early adulthood and finally, it causes impairment in a person's social, occupational, or other areas of functioning or causes the person a great deal of distress.

    OK. We all have "personalities" (as defined above) and perhaps when stressed, we might even show what looks like personality disorder. The best example of a Borderline Personality Disorder would be Glenn Close's performance in Fatal Attraction.

    Now let's talk Narcissistic and Histrionic Personality disorder. They are in the same cluster of disorders (Cluster "B" for those of you who are interested in such things) but are quite different from one another. What they share is that in each, the individual has little or no ability to truly empathize with another person. There is no insight into the effects of this person's behavior upon other people and others are often used as "props" or "mirrors" to achieve one's own purposes, whether it be the gaining of self-esteem (e.g. I married a doctor so that means I am important, or I am a doctor so that means I am important versus I am a human being and so therefore am valuable in and of myself.) The Histrionic Personality has a generally coquettish feel, with marked discomfort when they are not the center of attention, interactions with others what are often inappropriately sexually seductive or provocative, and a rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions. These people are Drama Kings or Queens. They are superfically quite warm and charming and can be entertainingly theatric. However, this is sadly about all they can do, never being able to stop the performance, as inside they are underdeveloped, shallow and empty. They often use physical appearance to draw attention to themselves and very often focus on the surface of things (given that there isn't much of an internal life.) The drama portion of their personality can be used to manipulate others who allow that sort of thing. These people are also easily suggestible and are easily influenced by other strong people or circumstances. Finally, they often consider relationships to be more intimate than they actually are. "She's my best and dearest friend" when indeed, the person did not show up to the hospital when said friend had a serious illness requiring surgery, would be an example of this.

    Narcissistic people have much less warmth and are usually much less personable and instead have a grandiose sense of self-importance. These folks overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments, often appearing boastful or pretentious. They may ruminate about admiration which they feel is long overdue or sometimes compare themselves favorably with famous people. These people believe that they are SPECIAL and that their needs are more important that those of "ordinary" people, so they often only want the "top" doctor, lawyer, decorator, etc. They insistent on the best and then promptly devalue anyone who disappoints them. They require huge amounts of admiration because their self esteem is so incredibly fragile. They are astonished when others don't covet what they have, and they expect to be given the red carpet treatment 24/7. Entitlement is usually seen here. For example, this means that the person thinks that because they are in a hurry, others should allow them to move to the front of the line in the store (as if no one else is in a hurry). They expect to be given whatever they feel they want or need, no matter what the impact is on other people. They also demand great dedication from others with no sense about how the other person's life is impacted. For example, imagine a rock musician demanding at the last minute that his or her entire entourage spend the Christmas holidays, including Christmas Day, preparing for an upcoming concert or just "hanging out", and being outraged that an employee would want to spend Christmas with his or her own family instead. This would be met with "narcissistic rage", the employee likely deemed disloyal and then immediately fired, with absolutely no sense that the demand was unreasonable and that (and this is the whole key) other people have feelings and thoughts and lives that are separate from one's own.

    While the Histrionic demands attention/love/praise in a very selfish way (read Jane Austen's Emma to see a recovering Histrionic) the Narcissist is grandiose and perfect. Narcissists need ADMIRATION while hysterics (histrionic PD people) need attention, usually reassurance that they are loved, important, good, beautiful, etc.). Not to say that we don't all need that, but the hysteric is addicted, if you will, and the need for attention is the primary goal in relating to another person. Period.

    The Narcissist is "the best" and doesn't give a **** if you like them or not. Either you adore them, worship them and admire them or to hell with you. The Histrionic person gets freaked out if everyone does not love them and will go to great lengths, usually to make sure of it. If finally met with people who don't like to always play second fiddle, they will usually drop them along the way.

    Sorry for the long winded answer. You therapists out there will recognize that much of the information I presented comes right of the the DSM. (the Big Bible of Diagnoses for those non-shrinky types).
     
  10. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Welcome Dr. Bea

    So nice to have you here.

    A 9 year old has a sibling murdered in his own house. When questioned by police psychologists about inappropriate touching going on in the house being possible, the 9 year old puts a game board on his head as a response. (The game board was there as kind of a distraction during the interview.) Also, the 9 year old is more concerned with an officer's Rolex watch when asked if he has any questions at the end of the interview. To me, this is very odd behavior. Any thoughts?
     
  11. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Thor that is a great question. Dr. Bea works with children and adults in very stressful situations so I am sure she will have a lot to say about it.

    Also Camper if I may point something out. Dr. Bea really knows nothing about the case. When I read her answer to you I realized she had no idea the police HAD been called as well as the friends. It's important to provide as much information as possible.

    What's interesting to me in reading Dr. Bea's answers to some of the questions is that perhaps certain behaviors we see as strange might actually not be unusual in a highly stressfull situation. However it is the total sum of the behaviors that I have the problem with. Also we are aware of all the behavior. Dr. Bea doesn't know the details like we do. Pehaps a few behaviors can be attributed to stress during the morning of the 26th but it is the actions after the murder that lead me to Patsy's guilt and John's awareness of it.

    It will be interesting to watch as this thread progresses and if Dr. Bea sees the same picture we see.

    I can tell you a few things for certain. Dr. Bea has common sense. She can spot someone who is trying to manipulate a situation a mile away.

    This should be interesting.

    Sparky she told me to tell you that you are nuts. Not me.

    Tricia
     
  12. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Nah Tricia

    You're not nutz. Neither is Sparky. Just a couple of people with the last name starting with R and my female GS dog.

    To clarify, Dr. Bea, the 9 year old in question here is JonBenet's older brother, Burke. One of the 3 left standing that we know of in the house that night. One other thing I might point out I thought was odd was that early that morning (before the body was found), Mr. Ramsey & his friend got Burke up and explained they were taking him to the friend's house. Not only is this odd to me but what the boy's reaction was seemed odd. Here you have a kidnapping from your own house, one of your children. Then you scoot your other child to a friend's house (away from your protection, the cop's protection while still in your house, waiting for the kidnappers to call). Then, the child simply leaves with his Game Boy Xmas present, not once questioning why they were doing this, why is mommy crying, why are the cops here, why aren't we going to Michigan for the trip they had scheduled that morning. The only thing the kid talked about was his Xmas present. IMO, this means he knew what happened and didn't question things BECAUSE he knew.
     
  13. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Thor if I may ride on your question a bit...thank you :)

    Dr. Bea using the information that Thor provided you, is it possible for a child to know EXACTLY what happened, such as a parent killing a sibling, and never say a word? Never ask his parents what happened? In fact would it be normal for a child like this to be so terrified that he wouldn't ever ask his parents about it?

    What would your thoughts be on the parents of a murdered sibling NEVER discussing the murder with the 9 year old surviving child? A bit of background. John and Patsy Ramsey have admitted they have not discussed the murder with thier older child. The boy Thor mentioned in her post

    Isn't that really over the top, just plain strange?

    Would the behavior of the parents ( not discussing the murder with the surviving child) be more easily understood if one of the parents was the killer?
     
  14. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I'm pretty sure I have the histrionic personality disorder!
     
  15. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    On the serious side, Br. bea, I want to say RIGHT ON about what you said regarding how a family DEALS with sexual or physical abuse being as or more important than the actual event. I worked with ED kids for a while and one thing that became very clear early on was that none of the boys would EVER talk about the sexual abuse they experienced. Some were very angry, some set fires, some became very aggressive sexually, but none of them wanted to talk about it.

    The sad fact is most feel ashamed even though they are too young to articulate it. These kids almost always feel they are to blame. Parents and relatives who inflict sexual abuse are manipulative and self-centered and they are quite skilled in making the child feel that great harm will come his or her way if they tell. The pedophile's entire existence relies upon not being detected or caught. I saw kids who had been raped as toddlers and at the time I didn't believe that was even possiblem, but believe me it is.

    Some kids deal with it, some get help, some don't, and still others become predators themselves.

    Great to have you here, Doc.
     
  16. Camper

    Camper Banned

    Dr. Bea

    Dr. Bea,
    Movie taking of the family Christmas has been established as a traditional family happening, both in the murdered childs family, and the fathers family prior to his marriage.

    Why would you think that this activity was not prepared for at Christmas time in 1996, the year of the murder? Why would a person whose yearly Christmas activity, not be prepared to handle it this particular year? No batteries were available, if I remember the excuse that was given. Yet most movie cameras can operate on electric current, and this wealthy family should have had the best to take pictures of their beautiful children.

    Hope I didn't leave any important detail out. But this has always perplexed me a great deal. My thought is that pictures were taken, but that something went awry with a behavior that was not wanted to be recorded for posterity.
     
  17. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Just spoke with the good Dr. earlier and she said she can pop in again on Wed. April 10th.

    She is really enjoying this. I think she wants to come on the forum more and more.

    BobC..no way. You are not histrionic. Maybe a titch wacky but that's it :)

    Sparky.... she's nuts.

    Keep the questions coming.

    Remember we can ask about other behavior in the case.

    I am trying to formulate a question about people who come out of nowhere to claim sexual abuse and the groupies who love them
     
  18. Voyager

    Voyager Active Member

    Welcome to FFJ Dr. Bea!

    We certainly welcome your expertise and the opinions of someone unpredjudiced and new to this case.....

    My question is: Do you think the fact of Patsy Ramsey dressing JonBenet in age inappropriate costumes, and the provactive stage performances and photographic images which portrayed JonBenet as a miniature "sexy" adult, were a sexual stimulant to the males in her immediate family....in other words, do you think that John, Burke, JAR, or JonBenet's grandfather might have come to look at her as a possible sexual target because of the stimulating way in which she was portrayed in the pageant arena?

    Thanks,
    Voyager
     
  19. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    Oh yes....

    Now we are talking!

    Tricia, you just blew Sparky's claims right out of the water with your BRILLIANT line of thought......I think that you should make her talk MysteryWoman with ya, we all know how much she loves that.

    Awesome questions guys! Keep them coming! Think of the utter and complete bizarreness that captured your interest in this case and let's put the kind doctor to work here.

    I'd like to throw a question Cookie's way. Before the murder of JonBenet, did John and Patsy act like they were guilty of something and trying to hide it all of the time or did this behavior coincide with the death of their daughter????

    Dr. Bea - I hope you like to take notes..........buckle up, it's usually a long ride once you get on. Welcome and Thanks.

    RiverRat
     
  20. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    MY QUESTION!

    Dr. Bea - please enlarge the picture to the left and tell me if I am wrong in thinking that this woman is not right.

    I gotta be me........
    RR
     
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