Burke or Bust!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cookie, Apr 4, 2002.

  1. Cookie

    Cookie Member

    We learned that the NY Post has been granted permission, by a NY judge, to examine the DA's office and the grand jury files to support their claim, in an article, that Burke was involved on Christmas night. The RAMS are suing the paper and the Post is fighting them, not conveniently settling.

    Unfortunately there is a gag order in this law suit and we probably won't find out a thing.

    I was under the impression that Burke was not involved. What do you think?

    Thor, I had never heard that JR took a walk to the Flatirons. What night was that? Where did you hear about this?
     
  2. LurkerXIV

    LurkerXIV Moderator

    The Post

    Rupert Murdoch loves a good brawl, and the Post will not bloody likely offer the Ramseys anything in the way of a settlement. Lin Wood is going to be beat to a pulp by the legal heavies of the Post. He'll be pi**ing his pants and begging for mercy when this gets to court.
     
  3. Cookie

    Cookie Member

    For Thor

    The comment that PR said to Pam Griffith...tell a little more about when if was said, what is the source?
     
  4. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Hi Cookie. Both of these things I read in Schiller's book. Supposedly, Pam was wiping Patsy's brow or something and Patsy looked up at her and said "we didn't mean for this to happen." This was shortly after the murder. I will do a little more research on this (its late) and get back to you. The JR walking by himself in the flatirons was also in Schiller's book. And it happened December 26. I find that very odd. Let me get my book out & get back to you.
     
  5. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    PMPT paperback, page 52:

    On the afternoon of December 27, when Pam Griffin got home from her interview with Detective Mason, she found a telephone message from Patsy's sister Polly. "Patsy needs you right now!" Polly had left directions to the Fernies' house.

    At the Fernies', Pam and Kristine (Griffin) found that Patsy was overdosing on valium. She'd been taking the powerful tranquilizer every few hours and had probably lost track of the amount. Pam, a former registered nurse, touched Patsy's skin and realized she was dehydrated. She brought Patsy some water and made her drink it.

    Later that afternoon, Kristine and Pam sat on either side of Patsy, holding her hands. "You Know," Patsy said quietly to Pam, as if she were telling someone for the first time, "they've killed my baby." Pam noticed that Patsy used the word they.

    "You need to brush your hair." Pam told her. "You need to lie down a little bit." But Patsy stood up to greet each new person who arrived, and as she did, tears streamed down her face. These friends, Pam observed, were entirely different from the people she and Patsy knew in common-their pageant friends. The people visiting her here were strangers to Pam. Hours later, Patsy finally took Pam's advice and lay down in the Fernie's bedroom.

    Kristine went to the bathroom to get a cool washcloth for Patsy's forehead. While she was gone, Patsy reached up and touched Pam's face. "Couldn't you fix this for me?" she asked. Pam thought she was delirious. It was as if Patsy were asking her to fix a ripped seam. "Patsy said something like, 'We didn't mean for that to happen.'" Pam would say later.
     
  6. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    PMPT paperback pages 26-27:

    At dusk, the Ramseys had their son, Burke, picked up from the Whites' house and he was brought to the Fernies' place in the Shanahan Ridge development on Table Mesa, below the foothills. There was room for all of them to stay overnight. The victim advocates, who had gone with them to the Fernies', left at 5:00 p.m. Shortly afterward, Detective Arndt left too. One patrol officer was left behind for security.

    Michael Bynum, John Ramsey's close friend and corporate attorney, who had been away snowshoeing, now arrived at the Fernies' house. As he walked in, the family was kneeling in the living room praying with Rev. Hoverstock. Around 7:00 p.m., John Ramsey went for a walk with John Fernie and Dr. Francesco Beuf, JonBenet's physician, who had brought over some medication for Patsy. When they returned a half hour later, Ramsey asked Bynum to represent him.

    "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry," Ramsey told his friends over and over. Then, just after 8:00, he left alone to take a walk in the nearby foothills.
     
  7. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Wow Cookie. Good news bad news. Good news for the post. Bad news for us about the gag order. Oh well.

    No I don't think Burke was involved at all. However I bet the Rams do not want anyone in the media looking at those files.

    They will drop it. You watch. The post has more money than the Rams could ever dream about.

    Lin Wood is a wuss. Big talker that's about it.

    Has Lin Wood ever taken a civil case before a jury?

    Cookie keep us informed ok?

    Tricia
     
  8. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Tricia, I've heard Limp Wood has not taken a case before a jury but that may be just hearsay.
     
  9. JR

    JR FFJ Senior Member

    I'll bet...

    This is not what the Ramsey's were expecting. Things have come too easily until now. Lin Wood better be brushing up on his trial skills IMHO. Unfortunately, IMHO, the real looser here will be Burke because once again his picture and those stories will be circulated as this case is followed in the media and on the Internet. Hasn't he been through enough?
     
  10. Show Me

    Show Me FFJ Senior Member

    Wow

    Thanks Cookie for the info.

    Soooo, if the Ramsey's lose THIS case, will the NYP publish the results? How cool! We could hear some new info concerning the Ramsey case.
     
  11. Scully

    Scully Member

    poor, Burke

    I honestly wish the Post would agree to settle this case out of court if only for the sake of Burke. I can't even begin to imagine the type of lonely existence Burke has been living over the past five years. At this stage of adolesence, it's so crucial for a child to feel excepted as a valued member of one's peer group, and having his name splashed all over the news once again must be a real crusher for him. And to top it all off is the knowledge that his mother is living on borrowed time.
     
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    Patsy's remarks

    Thor,

    I was just wondering if this episode of Patsy saying "They've killed my baby" to Pam Griffin was one of the reasons for you believing Patsy was innocent. You haven't budged much from this theory in almost a year.
     
  13. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Hi Elle. No, that statement didn't really affect my feelings on Patsy's guilt or innocence at all. I will say that I still am wavering back & forth on who could have done this. Burke is not completely off my list but I don't think he could have done everything, certainly not the note or staging. No way. He could have started this and the adults finished it. I guess I feel it is hard to believe (unless the woman has mental problems ala Joan Crawford in Straightjacket, heh, heh) that Patsy could have killed her prized cow here. She was planning on JB being Miss America someday. But then stranger things have happened. And John is not off my list, either. I still think sexual abuse is behind this crime. The only thing I am convinced of is no intruder and all 3 Rams left standing know what happened.
     
  14. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Thor I agree JonBenet was Patsy's prized display child. JonBenet was suppose to reach all of the goals Patsy did not achive because she wasn't good enough. I don't believe for one second that Patsy would have done anything on purpose. However I can see Patsy losing it because Jonbenet was refusing to dress like her, act like her and because JonBenet was arguing with her. That's why I think, whatever happened, it was an accident.

    What does John know? Was he involved in the cover up?What does Burke know? I hope we find out someday. I really do.

    Sexual abuse? That is the hot button question. I go back and forth on that one. There is some evidence of something going on
    (prior vaginal trauma) but what? It's too hard to say.

    I don't think Burke did it for many reasons. Some people think the only reason Patsy would have done the cover up would be to protect her son. I think just the opposite. I think John and Patsy would not have done this over the top cover up because it would have been too easy to explain away as an accident.

    Nope Burke didn't do it IMO. I believe Patsy did IMO.

    The rest??? I hope someday we have some answers.
     
  15. Mels

    Mels Member

    I believe everyone in that house knows something 'key' to the investigation.

    I lean toward Burke being involved, Just my opinion, but it seems to be the unwaivering glue that holds this couple together...and I believe the stress would have them divorced by now.

    If one or the other adult Ram had done it, I believe the Innocent one would have vehemently turned on the other. That would have made all well. Suiting both personalities to a 'T'.
     
  16. imon128

    imon128 Banned

    Cookie

    So very glad you're posting with us!! I have a bagillion questions for you, but since this thread is about Burke, I'll ask you this:

    What was Burke like?

    What was Patsy's attitude toward Burke and was it the same attitude toward him when JonBenet was with them?

    Did Burke like JonBenet?

    Why didn't John play ball with Burke or spend time alone with Burke? ( I read that neighbs didn't see John out playing ball with him, etc.)

    Do you think Patsy gave birth to Burke or could he have been adopted?

    Why do you think John and Patsy didn't sit with Burke at the funeral?

    Whew! There, imdone........
     
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    Christmas night

    Thor,

    We have thrashed this over and over so many times, I know, but coming here, I have to start over again. :) I still feel the fact the Ramseys were getting up early the very next morning for the flight to Michigan to pick up John's children, John Andrew, Melinda and her boyfriend Stewart Long, there just wasn't time for this sexual molestation from her Dad. You know I've never believed John Ramsey was involved with JB in this respect. Let's suppose he was, he was getting up early the very next morning; they all had a very tiring day from Christmas morning right up until the White's party. I feel they were just anxious to get to bed for their flight the next morning, and can't see JR finding time for a sexual session with his young daughter. I just can't see this.

    I feel JonBenét's death was an accident. She could have gone back down stairs for the pineapple. Patsy could have gone down herself and found her in the kitchen, and being so harrassed with all she still had to do, lost her temper with JB, and
    in her anger lifted the flashlamp which was on the counter and accidentally killed her. This is hypothetical, of course.

    I do believe John Ramsey was involved with the cover-up.
     
  18. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Elle, don't you just wish you knew exactly what happened that night? I just keep going back & forth. I can see this more as an accident sometimes, others not. But I cannot figure out the premeditation that some folks think, unless Patsy was a true nut case.

    The only think I'm sure of is that all 3 Rams left standing in the house that we know of know what happened. Yes, of course I believe JR was involved in the coverup, I believe both parents were no matter what happened.
     
  19. fly

    fly Member

    problems

    The accident idea is attractive mostly because it handles how a parent could be responsible for her death without requiring the parent be mentally ill or evil enough to kill her in cold blood.

    The problem, however, is that there are two horrendous injuries inflicted prior to death - the head injury and the strangulation - and two injuries makes it very, very hard to fit to an accident theory. Sorry, but the idea that they thought she was already dead when she was strangled doesn't seem very likely. Nor does the idea of "finishing off" a damaged child. Nor does finishing her off in order to cover up.

    All the accident scenarios I've seen require massive contortions to bring them even close to the "stranger than fiction" level of belief, IMO.
     
  20. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    Maybe not, Fly

    if one part was accident and the other part staging. Consider the scenario of using strangulation as part of some sick sex thing past the point of no return, and now someone feels the need to confuse the authorities on the cause of death and decides to smash her head in.

    Or, vice versa. Say someone violently shoved her against something that cracked her skull and rendered her so close to death a pulse could not be detected. The accident part would be that no one meant for her to die, therefore it was an accident (in the killer's mind). Again, in order to cause confusion as to cause of death and for staging purposes, the perp applied the garrote to her neck.

    In either case, she may not have been dead but very close to it, which is the reason it's been so tough to determine which caused her death, although I believe the coroner claimed the strangulation caused her death.

    It really doesn't matter who killed her in this case, because it is equally bizarre if one of the parents did it or an intruder did it. If she was already dead or close to it, why the overkill? The only explanation I can come up with is staging/coverup (which is also what the experts come up with, BTW), and who would need to do that other than someone in that house?
     
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