Strangulation?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, Mar 25, 2007.

  1. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The ligature around JBs neck was deeply embedded. IDIs claim this came because she was 'brutally strangled', but from the RDI side (e. g. EasyWriter) it has been argued that the deep embedding was caused by post-mortem swelling.

    A poster on another forum wrote that post-mortem swelling starts in the abdominal area, but JB's abdomen was flat (page 5 autopsy report "the abdomen is flat and contains no scars").
    I'm no medical expert - is it true that post-mortem swelling always starts in the abdominal area?

    In this poster's opinion, the deep embedding in the neck was caused by hemmorhage, giving it a swollen appearance.

    And help here from posters with medical knowledge would be much appreciated.
     
  2. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Was JB strangled at all?

    It has been argued (mostly by IDIs) that it would take a lot of force to strangle someone to death with a ligature. But when we look at the autopsy report of JB's neck region, no damage whatsoever is listed. No hemorrhage, no bruising, no contusions - nothing:

    Wouldn't the absence of any injuries contradict the assertion that JB was 'brutally garroted' to death?
    Isn't a scenario far more likely where a cord was tied around her neck for staging purposes when she was already in a deep coma from the head blow?
     
  3. tylin

    tylin Banned

    rashomom,
    If we believe the autopsy report, this section in particular:
    there is no way JBR was garroted to death, no way. FWIW-A close friend of mine is a LE officer and one of his first cases he investigated was a death by strangulation. There was massive bruising to the neck area, including damage to the thyroid.
     
  4. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    vagal reflex

    It doesn't necessarily require alot of force to kill someone by putting pressure on their neck if there is a vagal reflex. The vagus nerve runs through the neck, and though I can't say that I know exactly how or what happens, I recall that Cyril Wechts(sp) book talks about it. I assist during carotid endarterectomies (cleaning the plaque out of the carotid artery) and often see the vagus nerve. I have asked the surgeon before about what happens when it is stimulated but that was a few years ago and I can't recall the answer, but I believe it slows the heart rate down. Does anyone have access to Cyril's book that could clarify this?

    Okay - I just did some quick looking around on the web and read that there are sensors in the area of the carotid artery that monitor blood pressure. If a big rise of blood pressure is detected in the carotid area the heart can be shut down through the action of the vagus nerve. Some pressure on the neck would be involved but maybe not enough to cause the hyoid to fracture. I would still like to know what Cyril says on this subject.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  5. tylin

    tylin Banned

    Texan,
    Thanks for that information. I have Dr. Wecht's book here somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.
     
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    I always look for your little dog biting its tail, Texan, when a medical question arises. Do you ever discuss these JonBenét questions with your medical colleagues? I would love to be a fly on the wall to hear what they have to say
    about the head injury and the strangulation.
     
  7. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    sometimes

    sometimes I ask questions, for example, about the vagus nerve or something along the lines of, if someone with stage 4 ovarian cancer could survive years after chemo (highly unlikey was the answer). I don't have access to a forensic pathologist though so I can't really get good answers to the toughest questions.
     
  8. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    I *think* that the term "post mortem swelling" may have a specific meaning - i.e. swelling caused by the build up of gases. I'm confused about this since Elvis made that post. I'm getting the impression that post mortem oedema and post-mortem swelling might be two different things.

    http://www.wjcash.org/WJCash1/WJCash/WJCash/DeathofWJCash.htm
     
  9. heymom

    heymom Member

    Does anyone know for sure that the pathologist was truly objective, or was he trying to muddy the waters of JonBenet's murder too? I don't know if I've ever seen it discussed here.

    :crown: (This isn't related to my post, but I wanted to use the new smiley!)
     
  10. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Staging a deliberate strangulation homicide.

    What was MISSING in JonBenet and points AWAY from violent strangulation was things like we have in e. g. the Butts case:
    Strangulation victim Jessica Butts:

    3. Hemorrhage in the musculature and subcutaneous tissue in the front of the neck and in the thymus gland..
    5. Hemorrhage in anterior musculature of base of neck and upper chest around clavicles.
    6. Contusion of the tip of the tongue.

    From the autopsy report
    There is subcutaneous hemorrhage in the anterior middle of the neck, bilateral sternocleidomastoid hemorrhage near the inferior ends of the muscle, bilateral sternohyoid muscle hemorrhage, and hemorrhage in the portion of the thymus gland extending up into the neck. There is hemorrhage bilaterally in the trapezius, deltoid, and pectoralis major muscles near the clavicles.

    Upon examination of the body, the tongue is between the decedent's teeth, with a 1/2 inch contusion of the tip.


    Strangulation victim (Jessica's 29-year-old mother):

    1. Abrasions, contusions, and petechial hemorrhages of anterior neck.
    2. Hemorrhage in the subcutaneous tissue and musculature of the right side and front of the neck.
    4. Contusions of posterior right and left lower lobes of the lungs

    http://www.boards.320sycamore.com/sh...t=2930&page=23

    The complete absence of any hemorrhage of that type in JonBenet confirms me even more that there was NO REAL attempt at violently strangling to death.

    I'm absolutely convinced that the offender staged a deliberate strangulation homicide to deflect the attention away from the true reason of the child's violent death.

    With the child already in the process of dying from the head blow, the knot tied close to the neck may well have cut off her last oxygen supply, but imo had this been a genuine strangulation attempt, far more damage would have beene done than just a few petechiae.
     
  11. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member


    Excellent post, Rashomon. I totally agree. IMO, JonBenet was lying motionless when the fake ligature was applied. There would have been much more damage to her neck area and (as you pointed out) contusions on the tongue, if JonBenet had been conscious when the strangulation took place.

    Technically, the cord may have "cut off her last oxygen supply" as you stated, but JonBenet was unconscious, unresponsive and dying from the fatal head wound that cracked her skull when the cord was tied around her neck.
     
  12. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    Like I've been saying for some time now.
     
  13. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    But to this day, the IDIs on the forums still fight that theory tooth and nail, citing experts like Wecht who was of the opinion that the strangulation must have occurred first.
    I always 'counter' with Dr. Spitz and Dr. Wright. Wright for example said JonBenet probably lived for 20 to 60 minutes after the head injury.

    Another point the IDIs bring up is the only mild swelling of the brain (the Autopsy report says: "Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen").
    They say that if the head blow came first, then JonBenet must have died instantly afterward, for if not, her brain would have swollen much more.
    Since she was still alive when asphyxiated, they argue, the stager of the scene must have strangled her immediately after the head blow.
    They say it would be completely unrealistic to assume that Patsy would go from the state of shock over the head blow effect immediately to the state of staging a scene by grabbing a cord and tying it on the neck.

    These arguments must be taken seriously imo, which is why I would like to gather more info about brain swelling in general.

    - Do brain injuries always involve swelling of the brain?
    - Does swelling really happen that fast within minutes?

    If yes, what about those cases where people stayed alive for a good time after receiving a (finally fatal) head injury, some of them even staying conscious?
    I remember a tragic case where a woman, while cleaning the kitchen, accidentally banged her head against the sharp edge of an upper kitchen cabinet door standing open as she rose from floor. Her scalp bled, but not so much that it looked alarming, so she dabbed the blood off and went on cleaning. Although she did feel a little dizzy, it was much later (IIRC, even hours) when she suddenly collapsed on the floor, and although her family rushed her to the hospital immediately, she died there from her inner brain injury she had received in addition to the scalp laceration.

    If the brain swells immediately after being injured, then how can it be that this woman stayed alive and conscious for so long?

    TIA for any medical info on this.
     
  14. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I tried to post the link here but couldn't get it to work. On books.google.com, there is a book by Robert P. Granacher titled "Traumatic Brain Injury.
    Try to Google the words "brain swelling after injury" and it should pull up the link.
    The excerpts mention a severe injury to the head causing brain swelling can cause hypoxia (low blood pressure) that can lead to death and also scrolling down it mentions that the swelling itself can cause death from cardiac arrest.
    Other pages I found suggest that the brain swelling may not always be instant, and in some cases there may be a lapse of a day or more before the swelling causes collapse and/or death.
    In JBR's case, the swelling likely started right after the injury and the strangulation not too far after. The strangulation as she was dying likely prevented the brain from swelling even more, as well as preventing more extensive bleeding under the scalp and in the brain, as the strangulation also restricted blood flow to her head and brain.
    We do know for a fact that she was alive when strangled and that there were no fingernail marks or other evidence noted in he autopsy to suggest she struggled. There was no mention of JBR's own blood and skin under her nails. The marks we see in the photo are petechiae and the expected ligature bruising.
    As has been mentioned many times, the fact that the autopsy noted very little movement in the cord as it circled her neck suggest she was lying down (as an adult strangling a standing small child would naturally pull up on the cord as well as pulling tight, gravity pulling her down as the body is lifted by the force). And the lack of evidence of a struggle while being strangled also suggests she was unconscious from the head blow. Her tongue would be protruding if she'd been strangled first, and would have still been that way when she was found. We've all seen that photo- her mouth open, no swollen tongue. Her tongue was mentioned only as there being a "drying artifact to the tip of the tongue". Artifact means something not natural to it, something that had gotten stuck there at some point. It was not specified what that artifact was.
     
  15. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    You don't have to explain it to me. I know.

    I'll get back to you.

    But I will tell you this: my dad was a Marine in Vietnam. One night he and his squad were tracking some VC through a heavily overgrown area when they came upon a man. He was covered in blood. A good portion of his head had been shot away. He wasn't moving and the blood had partly congealed, meaning he'd been lying there for a while. When they checked him out, he was still alive. He lived for almost another hour. Head wounds are a funny thing. I don't know if that helps you, but it's something I try to bear in mind.
     
  16. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    As for the deep embedding, it seems it can also be caused by edema of the tissues when the ligature is not removed.

    From a forensic site:
    "Occasionally, when the ligature is still in
    position when the body is examined, it may appear
    to be deeply embedded in the skin, sometimes
    almost out of sight, and on its removal a deep
    groove may be seen in the skin. This embedding
    may be accentuated by edema of the tissues,
    especially above the ligature. Presumably, some
    passive transudation of tissue fluid continues even
    after the circulation has stopped, and as such,
    edema may continue to develop to some extent
    even after death, accentuating the depth of the
    groove." (end quote)

    http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.p...

    So the ligature furrow needn't mean JonBenet was violenty garroted to death. The complete absence of inner neck injuries points in the opposite direction.
     
  17. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    This description sounds exactly like the position of the garrote on JBR. In looking at the autopsy photos, you can see where her neck seems to hang over the ligature furrow, obscuring it in the midline.
    In a true strangulation (or hanging, in cases where the body is left suspended for a while, as in a suicide) there is considerably more swelling than was seen in JBR. The head can appear grossly swollen and discolored. With JBR, the only discoloration was the redness of livor mortis on the right side of her face, as her face was turned to the right, and some petechiae. These things indicate to me that the garrote, although placed on her when she was still alive, was not pulled tight enough to kill her, and was put on her close to death.
    Here it is: http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneckgarrote.jpg
     
  18. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Question re the ligature mark

    I a have a question which maybe posters with medical knowledge can help answer. TIA for your help.
    Suppose a ligature is tied around a dead person's neck, would the ligature mark be red too? Or would it be white?
     
  19. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    discoloration

    There doesn't have to be much discoloration because if there was a vago-vagal response it isn't the cessation of air flow that causes death but the stimulation of the vagus nerve that slows the heart beat. It is my understanding that death may occur quickly if this happens.

    Rasho - I believe if it was added post mortem there would be no reddening of the tissues beneath.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2008
  20. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I believe it would be white, if it was applied during the early blanching stage of livor mortis. It is interesting to me that the marks from the folds of her shirt and the elastic of her longjohns and panties appear white, possible indicating that they were replaced on the body after death. Moot point, though. The petechiae found on her eyelids (and elsewhere) indicate she was alive when it was applied. A coroner can tell if the ligature was applied on a living or a dead person. They cab also tell (at least with today's technology) if hair and blood came from a living or dead person. Although hair itself is considered "dead", the follicle/root is "alive" in the sense that it receives blood and oxygen from a pumping heart. When a hair is shed, if the person was dead when it came out, there is evidence that there was no blood flow/oxygen to that root/follicle. Same with blood. It is oxygenated or not.
     
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