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  1. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom
    Well, all I have to say is that if "experts" look at the RN and Patsy's exemplars, and have "reasonable doubt," I wouldn't trust them anyway. Any damn fool can see that she wrote that note!

    (I'm not disparaging you, Jay, just sayin...)
    I posted a list of all of those experts and their opinions on another forum, I can't remember which one it was though. And the expert opinion ran 50/50, on whether Patsy wrote the note or not. To me, that is not proof that she didn't write it, but it is inconclusive. I believe that she was the author....along with John's help. I think that he wrote a version, and she wrote a version, and they merged them both together. They admitted that they did this...with their Christmas letters...and stuff like that. SO, why not with the Ransom note....something that could keep their butts out of prison?

  2. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    Just to let you know, I forked out $30 for the ASTM standard which is used by the American Academy of Forensic Science and the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners.

    Now, according to the wiki, The American Academy of Forensic Science and the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners is the only official body for handwriting experts. We therefore know that the following experts would be aware of the standard and presumably using it:-

    Dusak
    Ubowski
    Speckin
    Alford
    Rile

    OK. Now to the Standard.

    As expected, there is a NINE-point scale (not five) :-

    1 - identification
    2 - strong probability
    3 - probable
    4 - indications (evidence to suggest)
    5 - no conclusion
    6 - indications did not
    7 - probably did not
    8 - strong probability did not
    9 - elimination

    Now - and this is the interesting bit - within each of the above categories, there is recommended technology to be used in qualifying an opinion and "falls short" (the term used by Alford and Ubowski) is recommended terminology under the category "Probable". Alford is usually depicted as someone who DIDN'T think Patsy wrote the note. This would tend to suggest otherwise.
    Wow Jayelles. So, even if the 4.5 is accepted that puts Patsy right between "Indications (evidence to suggest)" and "no conclusion". So "if" Patsy did try to disguise her handwriting or did use her left hand instead of her right...hmmmm.

    You are awesome Jayelles! Thanks.

    Little

  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little
    Wow Jayelles. So, even if the 4.5 is accepted that puts Patsy right between "Indications (evidence to suggest)" and "no conclusion". So "if" Patsy did try to disguise her handwriting or did use her left hand instead of her right...hmmmm.

    You are awesome Jayelles! Thanks.

    Little
    Now you've got me thinking. All along I've been thinking that the 4.5/5.0 made no sense because the official scale is out of 9. You can't even explain it by saying that the 4.5/5.0 is actually 9.0/10.0 (as some posters have suggested) because Likert scales must have an odd number to be meaningful (i.e. you cannot get a true midway response with an even number).

    I wonder... could the 4.5 be 4.5/9.0 because that would be inconclusive.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  4. #28

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    I'm trying to find the TV program where Alex Hunter uttered those "off the top of his head" incorrect numbers. HUNTER is the source, and he was just speaking extemporaneously and HE GOT IT WRONG. But it worked for the Ramseys, so they LOVE IT and NEVER TIRE OF REPEATING HUNTER'S ERROR.

    Still looking--thought it was on LKL, but haven't found it yet, so maybe it was anothe show. I remember Hunter saying this, though, as I was watching. Hope I find it or I'll be accused of BEING ON CRACK AGAIN....

    I did find Hunter saying this around the same time on Geraldo's show, which clearly indicates that Hunter was CONFUSED about the scale used by the experts, and he undermined them, as well:

    http://www.crimelynx.com/alexrivlive.html


    RIVERA: The ransom note--clearly, it's a fake. When you say that Patsy Ramsey has not been excluded as the author of the note, are you saying, because it's parallel to your previous statement that they're not excluded as possible suspects in the case--are you saying that it is one of your suspicions that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note or Patsy Ramsey is a suspect in the authoring of the note?

    Mr. HUNTER: Well, you know, I--I think, in fairness to this investigation, the handwriting people that we have retained in this case and that have been retained by the Ramseys, I--it--it is a very low probability, according to these experts. Now these handwriting--you know, in the--in the Oklahoma City bombing case, Matsch didn't let--let that stuff in. There's a lot of mumbo-jumbo to it. I don't think it's particularly reliable. So I don't think it's fair to say that, you know, what these experts say, sug--they just don't exclude her.

    RIVERA: She's not...

    Mr. HUNTER: They don't exclude her, but it's very low. And, frankly, if we get this to trial, which I hope, I would prefer to give that note to the jury and give that jury historical writings that--that might pertain to a particular individual and have them using their common sense, because these handwriting people have come up with such a scale and standards that it's really hard to...

    RIVERA: It's a--it's--it's not quite a science yet.

    Mr. HUNTER: No.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  5. #29

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    Okay...PULEEEZE tell me that Hunter didn't use THE RAMSEYS as HIS source...? Cause if this is true...

    Here GRETA VAN SUSTEREN has HUNTER on and SHE QUOTES THE RAMSEYS' OWN BOOK with the "1 to 5 scale":

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../17/bp.00.html

    VAN SUSTEREN: Let me turn to the other, what I find particularly significant piece of evidence: the ransom note. In the Ramsey book, Patsy and John Ramsey write that John has been excluded from being the author of the note. And that Patty, on a one to five scale, five meaning excluded, hit 4.5. Do you endorse those two findings? Is that...

    HUNTER: Well, I think that's close, but I think that this is a mumbo jumbo area, and we saw Judge Matsch in the McVeigh case, you know, not allow this handwriting stuff in. And I think it is stuff.

    Frankly, if we ever have a trial here, and ransom note were to become a key piece of evidence against anybody, I would want the jury to be able to look at that, and hopefully be able to look at historical writings, and make sort of their own judgments.

    I think these handwriting guys, you know, they have tried to build reliability in order to meet Fry and/or Dolbert, and in doing what, they have created such standards that -- Well that's why Matsch, I think, looking at his ruling, wouldn't allow that. He let the jury look at the note, or the writings, and make their own judgments.

    So I think an awful lot is made of that, when in fact I'm not sure we are ever going to be able to get before a jury what these various handwriting people say about where they fit on a scale.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    I'm trying to find the TV program where Alex Hunter uttered those "off the top of his head" incorrect numbers. HUNTER is the source, and he was just speaking extemporaneously and HE GOT IT WRONG. But it worked for the Ramseys, so they LOVE IT and NEVER TIRE OF REPEATING HUNTER'S ERROR.

    Still looking--thought it was on LKL, but haven't found it yet, so maybe it was anothe show. I remember Hunter saying this, though, as I was watching. Hope I find it or I'll be accused of BEING ON CRACK AGAIN....

    I did find Hunter saying this around the same time on Geraldo's show, which clearly indicates that Hunter was CONFUSED about the scale used by the experts, and he undermined them, as well:

    http://www.crimelynx.com/alexrivlive.html
    JMHO, even if the writer just dictated the note content it would still point in Patsy's direction. Whether handwritten or typed or pasted together from magazine clippings the wording and phrases used are unique to the individual.

    Little

  7. #31

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    I didn't find the LKL statement either KK but I have this saved. I have a DNA/Handwriting folder so the DNA stuff is mixed in with it.

    Little

    Quote: But judging by the grand jury's recent focus on the 2½-page ransom note left at the crime scene, prosecutors might be planning to ask Chavez about the chemical breakdown of the ink on the note.
    Her colleague Chet Ubowski, the agent-in-charge of the CBI lab and the bureau's handwriting expert, was seen leaving the grand jury courtroom with prosecutors after the panel's last meeting on Oct. 15.

    It's believed Ubowski spent the day testifying to his analysis of the ransom note found at the Ramsey home early Dec. 26, 1996.

    Eight hours after the discovery of the note, John Ramsey found the beaten and strangled body of his 6-year-old daughter, JonBenét, in a basement storeroom.

    According to a search warrant affidavit, Ubowski determined in early 1997 that John Ramsey didn't pen the note, but that there were "indications" Patsy Ramsey might have been the author.
    Source: http://careers.thedailycamera.com/ex...8/24grand.html End quote

    Quote: Ramsey turned over the pad, the sources said, after police asked for samples of his handwriting and Patsy Ramsey's handwriting.

    He told investigators he could get them samples of Patsy's handwriting -- with no indication he knew what else the notebook had been used for, the sources said.

    It was after he retrieved the notebook and gave it to police that a detective leafed through it and discovered a sheet with the heading "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey'' -- but no other writing.

    That is the complete text of the "practice'' ransom note.

    The complete 21/2-page ransom note, addressed only to "Mr. Ramsey'' and demanding $118,000 for 6-year-old JonBenet, was later determined to have been torn from the same legal pad.

    Until now, it hadn't been revealed how police found the practice note and the pad used to write the final ransom note.

    Meanwhile, Dr. Henry Lee, the nationally respected forensic scientist who is serving as a consultant to Boulder authorities in the Ramsey investigation, predicted on the Cable News Network's Larry King Live that there will be an arrest.

    To make that happen, authorities are still trying to determine who wrote both the full and partial versions of the ransom note, which purported to be from a "small foreign faction.''

    The Colorado Bureau of Investigation completed handwriting analysis on the notes last week, and provided a report to the Boulder police.

    Sources have said John Ramsey has been excluded as a possible author of the notes, but have revealed no conclusions about Patsy Ramsey.

    Work on identifying any fingerprints or palmprints left on the notes is continuing at the CBI, and may be completed this week.
    July 1, 1997
    Source: http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...ey/0701jon.htm end quote

    Quote: Ubowski, according to search warrants, has determined that Patsy Ramsey could not be excluded as a possible author of the ransom note.
    October 28, 1998
    Source: http://careers.rockymountainnews.com...8jonn.shtmlend quote

    Quote: “I have been asked this at conferences, by academicians, by the press — but I don’t know who killed JonBenet. I do know that someone in that house is connected with her death,” he said. “And that this was never a kidnapping, it was a murder whether accidental or purposeful.”
    .
    Standing before his class during a recent lecture on the subject of profiling, he explained his analysis of the ransom note found in John and Patsy Ramsey’s home just hours before their daughter’s body was discovered in the basement.
    .
    “It is a right-handed person who wrote this block-style with their left hand,” McAninch said of the letter.
    .
    “I have had many kids sit down and re-write this — it takes an average of 15 to 30 minutes. Someone just killed a 6-year-old then sits down to write a three-page letter in the house where the body is — that is someone who is not afraid of being discovered in the home,” he added.
    .
    He said the note itself attempts to point the reader to a type of individual, specifically a Middle Eastern terrorist —a person who would act quickly and without empathy for JonBenet or her family.
    .
    But McAninch said he was taught something very important from famed FBI profiler and criminologist Robert Ressler.
    .
    “One of the things Bob Ressler taught me is if someone is trying really hard to get you to look one way, the first thing you should do is look the other way,” McAninch said.
    .
    And that is why his interpretation of the ransom note has led him to believe the author is someone exactly the opposite of what the note states. A person who is staging a crime scene.

    He said it was apparent from the beginning of the letter that a crime was being staged to look like something it was not.
    Source: http://www.qctimes.com/internal.php?...ws&c=2,1008162 end quote

    Quote: Police sought "a broader range" of Patsy`s handwriting - specifically, printed, rather than cursive, words drafted before the murder. They removed several legal pads with writing on them, recipe cards and an address book, among other things.

    Michigan District Judge Richard W. May ordered the release of the March warrant and affidavit Monday. The Ramseys spent summers in Charlevoix over the past five years.

    The report also for the first time publicly reveals results of handwriting analyses by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation prior to March 6. In the request for the warrant, Boulder police note that a CBI handwriting expert found evidence indicating the ransom note "may have been written by Patsy," but that "the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion."
    Source: http://www.buffzone.com/extra/ramsey/1997/11/22-1.html End quote

    Quote: "In my opinion, (the inconclusive DNA) should not be any reason to have the district attorney refrain from moving ahead with an indictment," Wecht said.

    Genetic material may have been present previous to JonBenet’s death, he said, and it still may be useful years later, such as in the 45-year-old Marilyn Sheppard murder case that he is working on. "DNA is important, but the presence of some DNA that does not belong to John, Patsy or Burke does not mean in any way there was an intruder," Wecht said. "It may have just been there from somebody else."

    Conversely, forensic scientist Henry Lee, who advised Ramsey prosecutors and previously worked on the O.J. Simpson case, told Connecticut TV station WFSB-TV that he wonders whether the child beauty queen was even murdered.

    Lee said it's possible JonBenet’s death was an accident, which was covered-up to make it look like a homicide, in which case there really isn’t a killer.
    Regardless of the actual circumstances, Jay A. Siegel, professor of forensic science at Michigan State University, said, "It’s pretty clear that they haven’t got enough evidence to indict the parents or anybody else."

    Siegel said unless the incident’s details are known, DNA evidence is a tricky thing for grand juries to evaluate.

    "(Without) a clear-cut case of the circumstances, which you don’t have here, interpreting that evidence is very difficult to do," he said.

    Handwriting analysis, which was used in the case without implicating anyone, is "more an art than a science," Siegel noted.
    Source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511,00.html End quote

    Quote: March 17 - BOULDER - Investigators in the JonBenet Ramsey case are looking into whether she was wearing another child's underwear when her body was found, which may explain the mysterious, unmatched DNA samples taken from her body, sources confirmed Tuesday.

    DNA samples taken from under JonBeneÚt's fingernails and from her underpants have not been matched with anyone.

    The possibility JonBenet had traded underwear with a playmate, and her blood mixed with that other child's DNA, could account for the unmatched DNA evidence, according to a Fox News Channel report.

    Sources close to the investigation also told The Denver Post that authorities have been unable to match a metal fragment found beneath one of her fingernails to anything.

    One possible theory is the fragment may have come from fingernail clippers.

    Fingernail clippers are believed to have been collected as evidence.

    Another theory is the 6-year-old girl could have picked up the metal while playing.

    "It's hard to say why this would have gotten there,'' said a source, who wanted to remain anonymous.

    John Bergren of the Analytical Genetic Testing Center in Denver said it is possible to leave traces of DNA behind in clothing, either through skin or bodily secretions.

    However, he said, "sloughed off cells of skin are very poor for doing DNA analysis'' because the cells typically are dead.
    Source: http://63.147.65.175/news/jon0317.htm End quote

  8. #32

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    OK, I haven't found the program where Hunter made his statement yet, no time left today to keep looking, and it may not be online anymore.

    But I DID look at ACR's index of DOI, and yep, THERE IT IS, p. 140-41, hardback: the Ramseys stating THEIR EXPERTS said John was cleared and Patsy all but cleared...with the "1 to 5" scale.


    So, ONCE AGAIN, the DISINFORMATION comes straight from the RAMSEYS THEMSELVES.

    Yet I STILL HAVE NOT SEEN THAT SCALE NOR ANY EXPERT MENTION OF IT....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  9. #33

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    Great info, Little. I'm backtracking some of it, and some is not online anymore. But thanks for sharing.

    It's leading me to "other things" as usual--the Ramseys are/were everywhere, weren't they? Just found a Daily Camera editor's swan song article...and guess who used HIM as their DC contact? Uh...huh....

    Off topic, but I have to put this SOMEWHERE:

    http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007...s-to-wildlife/

    'Cowboy' turns to wildlife: Clay Evans wraps up 14 years at Daily Camera on Friday
    By Todd Neff (Contact)
    Wednesday, March 21, 2007

    [SNIP]

    Friday will be the last day of his 14-year career as a Daily Camera beat reporter, features writer, books editor, editorial-page deputy editor, columnist, and, most recently, outdoor-news editor. A swan-song column will run in Sunday's Insight section.

    [snip]

    He broke the story of Bredo Morstoel being kept on ice in a Nederland Tuff Shed, a find that made international news and eventually led to Nederland's "Frozen Dead Guy Days" festival. John and Patsy Ramsey turned to Evans as their contact at the paper to discuss their daughter JonBenet's 1996 murder.
    Explains a lot, doesn't it?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  10. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMES
    I posted a list of all of those experts and their opinions on another forum, I can't remember which one it was though. And the expert opinion ran 50/50, on whether Patsy wrote the note or not. To me, that is not proof that she didn't write it, but it is inconclusive. I believe that she was the author....along with John's help. I think that he wrote a version, and she wrote a version, and they merged them both together. They admitted that they did this...with their Christmas letters...and stuff like that. SO, why not with the Ransom note....something that could keep their butts out of prison?
    I believe that the note was conceived mostly by John, but actually written by Patsy. Therefore, the letter formation, the punctuation, the spacings, etc. etc. are all hers and hers alone.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom
    I believe that the note was conceived mostly by John, but actually written by Patsy. Therefore, the letter formation, the punctuation, the spacings, etc. etc. are all hers and hers alone.
    I agree...but, I think that those womanly touches...."be well rested", etc. were Patsy's too. I think that they probably wrote two versions...his and hers...and merged them together. Either that, or John told her some stuff to write, (dictated) and she just started writing...adding her own touch here and there. I think that if she had of just listened to John's version....without putting in her two cents...it would have been more like a REAL ransom note. "I have your kid. She will not be harmed. Don't call the cops. Bring $118,000.00 to such and such a place". No, Patsy had to throw in the word attache....with the mark over the e, that I can't figure out how to make with the computer keyboard....LOL , and she had to ramble on and on and on.....I don't think that John trusted Patsy to write it by herself. And WHY would a real kidnapper CARE what kind of bag it was in.....attache??? Shoot, it could have been a brown paper bag....they wouldn't have cared...they would have just wanted the money.

  12. #36
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    AMES. Hold the Alt key down, then type 130 on the calculator and then release your finger from the Alt key and you will have the accent above the letter e ... é as in JonBenét.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.



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