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  1. #1

    Default Handwriting analysis

    We are having a controversial discussion on the Crimelibrary JBR forum as to the scale which was used in the testing of the Ramseys' handwriting

    On Larry King Live (March 28, 2000), Patsy said: .

    P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared, and I scored a 4.5 out of a 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just -- you know.
    In the same interview, John says:
    We've looked at leads whose handwriting scored much, much higher than Patsy's on a comparison scale.
    Compare this with SteveThomas' statement on
    Larry Ling Live (April 14, 2000)


    THOMAS: Well, I think the most significant evidence in this case was the pen, the pad, the ransom note and the handwriting. And when we finished an investigation after 18 months and presented our case to the district attorney's office, presumably for them to move it forward, one statistic that was cited in that presentation was that out of 73 people whose handwriting was examined in this case, there was only one whose handwriting showed evidence to suggest authorship, who was in the home that night, who couldn't be eliminated as the author, and that was Patsy Ramsey.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...14/lkl.00.html

    (Pastsy's and John' statements are in this transcript too, inserted as videoclips).


    It would interest me which scale Chet Ubowski and his colleagues used.
    Was it the same scale which Patsy mentioned? If it was, did Patsy give a correct interpretation of the result?

    Why can this scale (where "5" allegedly equals 'elimination') not be found anywhere on official websites?

    According to Steve Thomas, out of 73 people whose handwriting was analyzed, only one showed evidence of authorship, and that was Patsy.

    John's story is that "they have looked at leads whose handwriting showed scored much highter than Patsy"? Team Ramsey had hired "their own" handwriting experts I supose ...

    TIA to anyone who could shed light on which scale was used and where.

  2. #2
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    Default scale

    I can't help on the handwriting scale but I can tell you that JR must be blind as a bat if he looked at the note and didn't think the handwriting resembled PR's. After all, Aunty Pam apparently noticed it.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texan
    I can't help on the handwriting scale but I can tell you that JR must be blind as a bat if he looked at the note and didn't think the handwriting resembled PR's. After all, Aunty Pam apparently noticed it.
    Not only that, but many RST will tell you they "copied" Patsy's writing to assist in FRAMING them, so for JR to deny it had any resemblance at all is pretty telling IMO
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

    http://66.98.176.96/~tricia/forums/s...ead.php?t=6404

  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    We are having a controversial discussion on the Crimelibrary JBR forum as to the scale which was used in the testing of the Ramseys' handwriting

    On Larry King Live (March 28, 2000), Patsy said: .


    In the same interview, John says:


    Compare this with SteveThomas' statement on
    Larry Ling Live (April 14, 2000)




    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...14/lkl.00.html

    (Pastsy's and John' statements are in this transcript too, inserted as videoclips).


    It would interest me which scale Chet Ubowski and his colleagues used.
    Was it the same scale which Patsy mentioned? If it was, did Patsy give a correct interpretation of the result?

    Why can this scale (where "5" allegedly equals 'elimination') not be found anywhere on official websites?

    According to Steve Thomas, out of 73 people whose handwriting was analyzed, only one showed evidence of authorship, and that was Patsy.

    John's story is that "they have looked at leads whose handwriting showed scored much highter than Patsy"? Team Ramsey had hired "their own" handwriting experts I supose ...

    TIA to anyone who could shed light on which scale was used and where.
    The Ramseys were using the "Anything I Say Must Be the Truth" scale. Also known as the BS scale. They were totally L-Y-I-N-G!! There is no scale that lets Patsy off the hook, so how could it be documented??

    Why can this scale (where "5" allegedly equals 'elimination') not be found anywhere on official websites?

    Answer: Because it doesn't exist and never has.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  5. #5
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    There definitely is a scale. It can be found here:-

    http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart...store+nopv1726

    There is actually a standard for handwriting analysis! However, it's a nine-point scale, not a 5-point scale:-

    1 Identification
    2 Highly probable did write - 90-95%
    3 Probably did write
    4 Indications did write
    5 No conclusion
    6 Indications did not write
    7 Probably did not write
    8 Highly probable did not write
    9 Elimination

    It's not simply enough to say that scale 5 in the above standard is equivalent to scale 3 in a 5-point scale because we don't know what methodologies have been applied in analysing the handwriting. The methodology is IMO most important. Consider weather forecasting. There's me, Farmer Giles and Michael Fish. I say there's an 80% chance it will rain tomorrow. Farmer Giles says 70% chance it will rain and Michael Fish says 20%. Folks might conclude from this that it's probably more likely to rain than not since two out of the three of us reckon high probability. However, our methods of weather forecasting are unknown at this point and when it transpires that I predict the weather from the pain in my knee, Farmer Giles predicts the weather from the behaviour of his cattle whereas Michael Fish is a meteorologist...... folks might change their minds!
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

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    Now I'm going to have a little go at the wiki.

    The wiki is packed with information which is commendable - but the section on handwriting analysis is certainly not without bias.

    Note that the section about Patsy NOT being the RN author gives a brief description of the finding and states the professional affiliations of the experts. Whereas the section about Patsy BEING the author of the RN goes into much more personal detail about the experts (often negative). The latter critiques the methods used and even goes so far as to list previous professional errors of the experts. Now I'm not saying that this is irrelevant - it is. However, it appears that the two camps of expert have not been compared on an equal footing and that the criteria used has been selected with the express purpose of discrediting the Patsy wrote the note camp.

    Clearly the owner of the wiki has a favoured outcome. Quite unprofessional IMO.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  7. #7
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    Jay, I didn't mean there was no scale for handwriting analysis, but that the Ramsey's scale was fictitious. They couldn't use the real scale because it would incriminate Patsy.

    They just said what they thought would get them off the hook. And it did.

    :computer:
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom
    Jay, I didn't mean there was no scale for handwriting analysis, but that the Ramsey's scale was fictitious. They couldn't use the real scale because it would incriminate Patsy.

    They just said what they thought would get them off the hook. And it did.

    :computer:
    I absolutely agree with you that there is a scale. However, the officially recognised scale (as acredited by the ASTM) is a nine-point scale which would tend to make any reference to 1-5 rather meaningless.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  9. #9

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    We've looked at leads whose handwriting scored much, much higher than Patsy's on a comparison scale.
    Well, it seems like every so often, the Rs make that claim. But they've never put their money where their mouths are. And it's not like they haven't had chances to do so. Even during the depositions, neither they nor Alex Hunter nor anyone else ever named names. Darnay Hoffman, fool he may be, has it right: all they have to do is pony up and he'll go away. Same here.

    Why can this scale (where "5" allegedly equals 'elimination') not be found anywhere on official websites?
    Because it was whipped out of thin air. Like I keep saying, I talked to a handwriting analyst, He's never heard of such a thing.

    John's story is that "they have looked at leads whose handwriting showed scored much highter than Patsy"? Team Ramsey had hired "their own" handwriting experts I supose ...
    They did, and they're the ones who came up with that cockamamie story. And even THEY couldn't eliminate her; what does that tell you?

    Not only that, but many RST will tell you they "copied" Patsy's writing to assist in FRAMING them, so for JR to deny it had any resemblance at all is pretty telling IMO
    Yeah, either it looks like hers or not. Can't be both. Her sisters, even her mother couldn't deny it.

    The wiki is packed with information which is commendable - but the section on handwriting analysis is certainly not without bias.
    That's one way of putting it.

    However, it appears that the two camps of expert have not been compared on an equal footing and that the criteria used has been selected with the express purpose of discrediting the Patsy wrote the note camp.
    Clearly the owner of the wiki has a favoured outcome. Quite unprofessional IMO.
    Much as I legitimately like the owner, no BS, I have to agree in good conscience.
    They should all drown in lakes of blood. Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    Now I'm going to have a little go at the wiki.

    The wiki is packed with information which is commendable - but the section on handwriting analysis is certainly not without bias.

    Note that the section about Patsy NOT being the RN author gives a brief description of the finding and states the professional affiliations of the experts. Whereas the section about Patsy BEING the author of the RN goes into much more personal detail about the experts (often negative). The latter critiques the methods used and even goes so far as to list previous professional errors of the experts. Now I'm not saying that this is irrelevant - it is. However, it appears that the two camps of expert have not been compared on an equal footing and that the criteria used has been selected with the express purpose of discrediting the Patsy wrote the note camp.

    Clearly the owner of the wiki has a favoured outcome. Quite unprofessional IMO.
    The owner of the Wiki is a very intelligent (and quite entertaining I must say) poster (currently active on the CL forum), but however 'objectively' he presents his site, listing the pros and cons, he is a die-hard IDI. jmo

  11. #11

    Default

    If I've learned one thing in the past 10+ years following this case it's to save anything that might "disappear" later. I feel so sure that I read that Patsy's sister said someone was trying to set up Patsy when she (Patsy's sister) saw the ransom note. Of course, I didn't save the source so that is purely my recollection, which just ain't what it used to be LOL.

    Little

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    The owner of the Wiki is a very intelligent (and quite entertaining I must say) poster (currently active on the CL forum), but however 'objectively' he presents his site, listing the pros and cons, he is a die-hard IDI. jmo
    In fairness, it's entirely possible that the owner of the wiki didn't create the page about the handwriting as there are several other contributors that I'm aware of. Nonetheless, the particular bias of this page did strike me when I read it in detail.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission



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