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  1. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Okay, brown, here is a copy of my second attempt to post the excerpt from Hunter's depo, leaked by none other than swamp queen jams. I copied it from those attempts at topix, because brown can't see it, but I can. Leading us to wonder if one--or both--of us is barking mad, as brown put it. What's the verdict, Guttah snipes?

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...V7GGNJ7FI31/p8
    Phew! I can see it.

    What it tells me is that Hunter was extremely persistent in his error about the scale.

    Thomas says that he confused the Five Daubert Reliability Factors with the standard nine-point handwriting scale.

  2. #74

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    Here are some other things I posted, which may not be showing up, either, since no one is responding:

    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply »
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#128 23 hrs ago
    Judged:
    1
    http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ram...

    Ramsey grand jury hears writing expert
    Analyst had concluded child's mother possible author of ransom note
    By Charlie Brennan
    Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer
    __________
    BOULDER -- The grand jury considering evidence in the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation apparently heard testimony Thursday from the handwriting expert who concluded the child's mother could have written the ransom note.
    Colorado Bureau of Investigation handwriting analyst Chet Ubowski arrived early in the afternoon at the Boulder County Justice Center, where he was met by grand jury prosecutor Michael Kane.
    Reporters are not allowed inside the building to see who actually walks into the grand jury room.
    According to search warrants previously unsealed in the case, Ubowski said Patsy Ramsey could not be excluded as author of the 21/2-page ransom note she claimed to find early Dec. 26, 1996.
    Ubowski also determined that the note was written on paper from a white legal pad that belonged to the Ramseys.
    Ubowski's analysis excluded 6-year-old JonBenet's father, John Ramsey, as a possible author of the note.
    It was Ubowski's analysis that triggered a second search of the Ramseys' vacation home in Charlevoix, Mich., more than two months after JonBenet's death, seeking unrehearsed samples of Patsy Ramsey's writing.
    District Attorney Alex Hunter has characterized the ransom note as one of the most important pieces of physical evidence with which investigators have to work.
    JonBenet Ramsey was discovered in the basement of her family's Boulder home the day after Christmas 1996, about seven hours after her parents reported she had been kidnapped.
    The ransom note was found on a back stairway of their residence, the Ramseys told police. It purported to be from individuals representing a "small, foreign faction" and demanded $118,000 for the safe return of JonBenet.
    Kidnappers never attempted to collect that money. The child's body was found by her father secreted in a small basement room with duct tape over her mouth and a garrote tightened around her neck. An autopsy showed she had suffered blunt trauma to her skull.
    Police say John and Patsy Ramsey remain suspects. The Ramseys have repeatedly vowed they are innocent.
    October 16, 1998

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  3. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    Phew! I can see it.

    What it tells me is that Hunter was extremely persistent in his error about the scale.

    Thomas says that he confused the Five Daubert Reliability Factors with the standard nine-point handwriting scale.

    It tells me Hunter was extremely persistent in his determination not to charge the Ramseys with any crime, no matter how much evidence he had against them.

    You must read this thread. There are other articles in here that illustrate how Hunter discredited the whole handwriting analysis process! The man was a criminal's wet dream!

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  4. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Brown, here is some info on how Hunter first heard of this non-existent scale. Yep, it was in the Ramseys' very own book. I knew it made me crazy when I read Hunter quoting the Ramseys lies! argh!

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ter#post147595
    I suspect that the Ramseys and Hunter both got the idea for this scale from someone else.

  5. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    I suspect that the Ramseys and Hunter both got the idea for this scale from someone else.
    Okay, just spit it out. We can take it.

    I don't believe the Ramseys knew anything about handwriting analysis scales in advance of the murder, either. Hunter...should have. But he could be that dumb, he certainly is that corrupt.

    What's amazing, now that you mention it, is how NO ONE from the field came out and denounced the claims made by Hunter and the Ramseys!

    That tells me what Epstein said about the field being very small and inbred is absolutely true. Epstein said he believed that the reason none of the expert examiners would just state that they believed Patsy wrote the note, if that's actually what they did believe professionally after analyzing it, was because they all worked and trained in a small circle with each other and were afraid, more or less, to go up against each other and get themselves involved in a situation that would end up with someone getting blackballed, or something like that.

    I see what he meant. Because NOT ONE EXPERT came out and straightened that fake scale out for the public. Dear god. The Ramseys' lawyers and Hunter really knew how to play this one to the hilt, didn't they?

    A curse upon all their houses. May they become as barren as the grave.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  6. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Okay, just spit it out. We can take it.

    I don't believe the Ramseys knew anything about handwriting analysis scales in advance of the murder, either. Hunter...should have. But he could be that dumb, he certainly is that corrupt.

    What's amazing, now that you mention it, is how NO ONE from the field came out and denounced the claims made by Hunter and the Ramseys!

    That tells me what Epstein said about the field being very small and inbred is absolutely true. Epstein said he believed that the reason none of the expert examiners would just state that they believed Patsy wrote the note, if that's actually what they did believe professionally after analyzing it, was because they all worked and trained in a small circle with each other and were afraid, more or less, to go up against each other and get themselves involved in a situation that would end up with someone getting blackballed, or something like that.

    I see what he meant. Because NOT ONE EXPERT came out and straightened that fake scale out for the public. Dear god. The Ramseys' lawyers and Hunter really knew how to play this one to the hilt, didn't they?

    A curse upon all their houses. May they become as barren as the grave.
    Yeah, even Epstein didn't say "Nobody uses a 5 scale!" even though you could tell from that he wanted to. When asked if he knows that Hunter said the Ramseys were a 4 or 4.5 on a scale of 5, Epstein just nods his head." When the Ramsey attorney prods him more he comes out with "That's what he says."

    Smit claims to have worked with handwriting analysts in his career. He repeats the "4 out of 5" thing too. But not very well. It's like it dawns on him that what he's saying doesn't make any sense. Or maybe he just forgot his lines. Anyway, the Ramsey attorney is there to give him the correct answer.

    From the Smit depo:

    "Q. I want to ask you first about the four police examiners. Are you familiar with the conclusions drawn by those individuals about Patsy Ramsey?

    A. Yes.

    Q. How would you collectively describe the opinions reached, the conclusions reached, by the police handwriting examiners as to where on the scale of probabilities Patsy Ramsey would be placed in terms of being the author of the ransom note?

    A. Generally inconclusive and below. Inconclusive and below. I have heard and was told by Alex Hunter that, if Patsy Ramsey wrote the note, the score was five that she wrote it, or that -- on a scale. That she did not write it.

    Q. Five being that she did not write the note?

    A. Five being that she did not write the note. She would score a 4.5. Low on the scale.
    "



    I can believe that Smit was befuddled and I can almost believe that Hunter was. But I'm sure that Lin Wood and Co. knew exactly what was going on.
    Last edited by fr brown; November 10, 2009, 12:11 pm at Tue Nov 10 12:11:03 UTC 2009. Reason: typo

  7. #79

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    There are only two choices with Smit: he was befuddled much of the time, or he was purely deceitful.

    I put this post from topix on the Thomas thread, but it's about the handwriting scale we're discussing, so I'm going to stick it here too, if you and CSIEngland don't mind, fr brown.

    CSIEngland
    “Step away from the frog!”


    Joined: Aug 20, 2009

    Comments: 2345

    Bexley, Ohio

    ISP: Columbus, OH
    Reply »
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#259 Sunday
    fr brown wrote:
    CSI, could you ask Steve Thomas if Chet Ubowski uses the nine-point scale recommended by the Questioned Document Section of the American Academy of Forensic Science and the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners," to wit,
    1 - identification
    2 - strong probability
    3 - probable
    4 - indications (evidence to suggest)
    5 - no conclusion
    6 - indications did not
    7 - probably did not
    8 - strong probability did not
    9 - elimination
    or the five-point scale advanced by the Ramsey attorneys or another scale or no scale?
    Thanks!
    He used the standard nine-point scale, but Hunter got this confused with the five non-exclusive Daubert factors and started calling it a "five point scale." There is no five-point scale. According to ST, "Chet Ubowski scored Patsy a 4 or 4.5 on a standard nine-point scale."

    The nine-point scale is "the" standard scale all expert document analysts use. It is now, it was then.

    <<>>

    http://federalevidence.com/blog/2008/december...

    Another thing the RST can complain about.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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  8. #80

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    I want to encapsulate here the discussion we had over at topix about the 5 handwriting scale (minus CSIEngland's "contribution").

    An adamantly pro-Ramsey poster to "The Handwriting Scale" thread at topix provided us with a 5-scale which I accepted for the sake of argument. Here it is:



    1) Identification
    1.5) Highly probable did write
    2) Probably did write
    2.5) Indications did write
    3) No conclusion
    3.5) Indications did not write
    4) Probably did not write
    4.5) Highly probable did not write
    5) Elimination


    The same poster provided Smit's testimony before Carnes. This is a portion of it:

    "Smit: Yes. I am referring to the slide. Chet Ubowski, his results -- and this is a very brief rendition of his results. There were indications that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note. There is evidence which indicates that the ransom note may have been written by Patsy Ramsey. But the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion.

    Leonard Speckin, he is a police expert, private forensic document analyst. "Lack of indications. I can find no evidence that Patsy Ramsey disguised her handwriting exemplars. When I compared the handprinting habits of Patsy Ramsey with those presented in the questioned ransom note, there exists agreement to the extent that some of her individual letter formations and letter combinations do appear in the ransom note. When this agreement is weighed against the number, type, and consistencies of the differences present, I am unable to identify Patsy Ramsey as the author of the questioned ransom note with any degree of certainty. I am, however, unable to eliminate her as the author."

    Edwin Alford, Jr. "Lack of indications. Examination of the questioned handwriting and comparison of the handwriting specimens submitted has failed to provide a basis for identifying Patsy Ramsey as the writer of the letter."

    Lloyd Cunningham, Ramsey expert, he is the one that certified Chet Ubowski. "Lack of indications," that he cannot identify or eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the author of the ransom note. And he has spent 20 hours examining the samples and documents and has found that there were no significant individual characteristics but much significant difference between Patsy's writing and the note.

    Richard Dusick, he is the analyst for the United States Secret Service. These are the results of his specific report. "Lack of indications. A study and comparison of the questioned and specimen writings submitted has resulted in the conclusion that there is no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the ransom note." Howard Ryle [sic], the former CBI examiner, "probably not." His opinion in this case is between "probably not" and "elimination," elimination as Patsy Ramsey as the author of the ransom note. He believes that the writer could be identified if historical writings were found. The results, the general consensus is inconclusive and below that Patsy wrote the note."


    Using Smit's testimony, I converted the experts' opinions to a numeric on the 5-scale. The pro-Ramsey poster agreed with my conversion. Here it is:

    For the police:
    Ubowski 2.5 indications did write
    Speckin 3.0 no conclusion
    Alford 3.0-3.5
    Dusick 4.0 probably did not write

    For Ramseys:
    Cunningham 3.0 no conclusion
    Rile 4.5 highly probable did not write


    So it's abundantly clear, both from Smit's testimony and from looking at the experts' opinions numerically, that their collective opinion cannot be characterized as 4.5 on a scale of 5. Only one expert out of six put her that close to elimination.
    Last edited by fr brown; February 22, 2010, 7:35 pm at Mon Feb 22 19:35:10 UTC 2010.

  9. #81

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    What is your pro-Ramsey poster's source for that scale of 1-5? I've never seen any actual, authentic scale with a score from 1 to 5 related to any professional handwriting analysis, certainly not at the time of the murder or in the decade afterwards.

    Lou Smit provided Judge Carnes, through his deposition with Lin Wood, with more disinformation and maybe downright lies regarding the actual evidence in this case than anyone, other than the Ramseys themselves.

    Patsy and John Ramsey were the first source I am aware of who put the "1 to 5" scale in the public. They, however, were not handwriting experts, nor have I ever seen their actual source for that scale. Alex Hunter actually quoted THEM, when he repeated it on a TV talk show. Par for the DA Office's course in this case, unfortunately for any hope for justice....

    Well, this is all I know: you have to be blind or willfully unable to see the obvious to miss the amazing consistencies in the ransom note and Patsy's writing; not to mention, to ignore the fact that it was Patsy's pad, Patsy's pen, and the Ramsey's linguistics, down to the "VICTORY!" that Patsy's sister Pam stated Patsy finally got some 10 years later when Patsy died, is nothing short of obtuse denial.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    What is your pro-Ramsey poster's source for that scale of 1-5? I've never seen any actual, authentic scale with a score from 1 to 5 related to any professional handwriting analysis, certainly not at the time of the murder or in the decade afterwards.

    Lou Smit provided Judge Carnes, through his deposition with Lin Wood, with more disinformation and maybe downright lies regarding the actual evidence in this case than anyone, other than the Ramseys themselves.

    Patsy and John Ramsey were the first source I am aware of who put the "1 to 5" scale in the public. They, however, were not handwriting experts, nor have I ever seen their actual source for that scale. Alex Hunter actually quoted THEM, when he repeated it on a TV talk show. Par for the DA Office's course in this case, unfortunately for any hope for justice....
    There was no source for the 5-scale except a common sense shoehorning from the 9-scale.

    It's just a method of argument, koldkase. Instead of screaming at the poster that they didn't use a 5-scale (which had been done for years), I assumed that the 5-scale was legitimate and then showed that their conclusions were inconsistent.

    Using a 5-scale, Smit's statement that the consensus was that Patsy scored a 4.5 is inconsistent with his other statement that the consensus was that she scored "inconclusive and below." On a 5-scale, 4.5 would be "highly probable did not write."

    On the 9-scale, however, 4.5 comports with "inconclusive and below."

    QED

  11. #83

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    In 2008, Lucinda Franks published "John Ramsey's Lingering Suspicions," an article about her interview with him. Regarding Patsy's handwriting resembling that of the ransom note, she says this:

    "Patsy became a suspect because of the similarity of her writing to that of the ransom note, 'But no expert would say that the handwriting absolutely matched,' John says."

    Absolutely matched? I thought he'd been telling us that she was as unlikely a candidate as anyone could possibly be without being eliminated.
    Last edited by fr brown; April 8, 2010, 6:09 pm at Thu Apr 8 18:09:24 UTC 2010.

  12. #84
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    Even without all the handwriting expert's opinions which were excellent on this forum from Delmar England and Cherokee, there are quite a few of us here who see Patsy Ramsey written all over this ransom note. Her personality comes through.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.



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