Wrist Ligature....

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by AMES, Jun 18, 2007.

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  1. AMES

    AMES Member

    Please forgive me if this has already been discussed...I just thought that it was pretty interesting.

    7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
    8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
    9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
    10 apart?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
    12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah,
    her hands
    14 were close together



    "EXTERNAL EXAM: The decedent is clothed in a long sleeved white knit
    collarless shirt, the mid anterior chest area of which contains an
    embroidered silver star decorated with silver sequins. Tied loosely
    around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white
    cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in
    length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5
    inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord
    is also frayed.
    There are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper
    anterior right sleeve contains a dried brown-tan stain measuring
    2.5x1.5 inches, consistent with mucous from the nose or mouth. There
    are long white underwear with an elastic waist band containing a red
    and blue stripe. The long underwear are urine stained anteriorly over
    the crotch area and anterior legs. No defects are identified. Beneath
    the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the
    words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band. The underwear is urine
    stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas
    of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension."


    http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

    This is a picture of the wrist ligature....(even though its labeled garrote)....(note the double loop at one end...just as the autopsy report says)....

    And this would be the picture of the garrote that was around her neck....notice the hair caught in it....

    http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote4.jpg


    Looking at the picture of the wrist ligature, I have no clue how John could say that her wrists were crossed, when he found her...there is way too much cord between the loops.
    __________________
     
  2. heymom

    heymom Member

    Didn't John say he untied one of the wrist cords? I doubt that he did - have always thought he was lying about her wrists being tied tightly.
     
  3. AMES

    AMES Member

    Yeah, he untied one...but in this portion of the interview...he says that her wrists were tied TOGETHER....but, yet...the ME says there is a stretch of cord...(and you can also see this in the picture that I posted)....notice the loops are not close together, so how could her wrists have been crossed in front of each other and tied, as John said in his interview? I think that he was lying about them being tightly tied too, because the ME said that the one around her sleeve was LOOSELY tied.
     
  4. AMES

    AMES Member

  5. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    Rigor mortis refers to the state of a body after death, in which the muscles become stiff. It commences after around 3 hours, reaching maximum stiffness after 12 hours, and gradually dissipates until approximately 72 hours after death.

    http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/body_changes/rigor_mortis.htm

    Wasn't the autopsy approximately 20 hours after they figured JBR died? When John carried up from the basement it would have been approximately 12 hours after death, so therefore she would have been at the height of rigor (very stiff) at that time, which was how she was described.
     
  6. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Delmar England is of the opinion that on seeing how clumsily Patsy had tied the loops around JonBenet's hands, with one loop being so large that it didn't even close aroud the left wrist but had already come off, John tried to control the damage by telling the investigators it was he who removed this ligature. Makes sense imo.
     
  7. AMES

    AMES Member

    Yep, and if she was very stiff...and her wrists were "tied closely together"...as in touch or even crossing over one another....as descibed in JR interview....then there is NO WAY they would have moved. They would have stiffen, or frozen in place....together. So, why...in the picture that I posted from ACR site, is that picture only of ONE wrist/hand? The other one is not even in the picture, so there is NO WAY that her hands were tied as close together as JR says they were.
     
  8. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Good spot, Ames. Imo this picture is just another proof taht John lied about her wrists being tied closely together.
     
  9. AMES

    AMES Member

    Yep...I think so too. My whole point about the ligature, was to point out what we all already know...that JR was lying through his teeth, during his interview. In the pictures that ACR has posted on the site.....the ligature had some rope lengh, in between the wrist loops....so, how is it possible that JB's wrists were tied so close together, touching...or as stated in JR's interview....crossed...one in front of the other? He is such a liar.....

    I must be slow, because I had NEVER seen that portion of his interview before, I found it accidently while looking for yet ANOTHER lie that he told.
     
  10. AMES

    AMES Member

    Thanks...yes..this picture and the one with the ligature, is just yet another proof. You can plainly see a cord, with loops at the end, and a bunch of cord in between. Not consistant with JR saying that her hands were "very close together". He was also asked if her wrists were crossed, and he repied with "yeah".
     
  11. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    maybe

    one wrist was just laying over the other wrist - he doesn't really say they are tied that way - just that they are crossed. He can't be stupid enough to think he could lie about that without LE knowing about it. Can he?
     
  12. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    If that is an autopsy photo, the body would be out of rigor and moveable once again. If it is a crime scene photo...you could have a point. I took what he said from the interview ( as disjointed as it was) to saying 1.) the cord was tied tightly around the wrists [and we know one was and one wasn't...which further made him say he tried to untie one of them] and 2.) that her hands were close together or crossed (not tied) which is how I believe she was brought upstairs when she was in full rigor and immoveable.
     
  13. AMES

    AMES Member


    7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
    8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
    9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
    10 apart?

    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
    12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
    14 were close together


    Yes, he does say that they were tied that way. Mike Kane: "But were her hands TIED CLOSELY TOGETHER or were they wide apart?" John: "No, it was like that" Apparently John is crossing his wrists one over the other, because THEN Mike Kane says:" They were crossed like that?".....and then John says: I remember, YEAH, her hands were close together." He is specifically asked by Kane...if her hands were tied closely together. If they had of been tied far apart and just was resting on top of each other, then John would have said that. IMO.... Also, her hands, even if they were resting like that and not tied like that, would have frozen in that position due to rigor mortis, but as you can see by the picture that I posted, from ACR's site....the hands are NOT together. Regardless...John states that her hands were tied closely together....not 15 or so inches apart.
     
  14. AMES

    AMES Member

    I believe that it IS an autopsy photo. I just looked it up, and a body comes out of rigor in 72 hours, how long after they found JB, until the autopsy? 72 hours...that is THREE days....surely they didn't wait THAT long for an autopsy. When my mom died, at the funeral home, I was not particularly thrilled with the placement of her arms, so the funeral director, using force...had to move them to suit me. (She was buried just two days after she died.) They were actually creaking.....(after all of that, I wished that I had of just told him to leave her arms the way they were....I had nightmares after that).



    http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm

    "Chemistry of Muscle Fibers
    A few hours after a person or animal dies, the joints of the body stiffen and become locked in place. This stiffening is called rigor mortis. Depending on temperature and other conditions, rigor mortis lasts approximately 72 hours. The phenomenon is caused by the skeletal muscles partially contracting. The muscles are unable to relax, so the joints become fixed in place. "
     
  15. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    I think he is answering NO to the "Were they tied together" question, and then shows Kane the positioning, but that is just my interpretation.

    It is so hard to tell from a transcript without seeing what was going on in tandem to the conversation.
     
  16. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    A body comes completely out of rigor in 72 hours. From the link I posted, it starts coming out after full rigor at 12 hours. I thought it was an autopsy photo too AMES, but we also don't know what the coroner did to position her for the autopsy examination either. Perhaps a smaller body comes out sooner, or he forced the limbs where he needed them to be to perform the autopsy (which is more likely the answer since she still has her clothes on).

    Since the position of her hands and arms were above her head (from all descriptions) when JR brought her upstairs, maybe it was also the coroner who moved the position of her arms before she was placed in the body bag and removed from the home to the morgue.
     
  17. tylin

    tylin Banned

    Yes.
     
  18. AMES

    AMES Member

    7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
    8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
    9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
    10 apart?

    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
    12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
    14 were close together


    Looks like to me that John is saying "No, it was like that"...to the last part of Kane's question..."....or were they wide apart".
     
  19. AMES

    AMES Member

    I would imagine that a smaller body would take just as long to come out of rigor...but, who knows? Yes, and maybe the coroner moved them to place her in the body bag, and maybe he didn't. All I know for sure is that John said that JB hands were together, but yet there is about 15 in. of cord, between the wrist loops. We can sit here and guess ...all day long...about what he meant. LOL But, I believe that he is clear when he says that her hands were together....when Haney asked if they were tied together.
     
  20. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    And that is why it is ok to disagree. If JR had been forthright in the rest of his testimony with clear concise answers, that would be one thing, but since he danced and scooted around whenever he said anything, it is hard to tell, what he was saying or what he meant, especially without being there to see the interaction between the two men during the conversation.

    It is also possible the excess was just wound around both of her hands, after all, this WAS staging. The garrote was not a "working" garrote, so the ties around her wrists with the cord in between are useless in trying to figure out "why" they were the way they were. The 15" of cord was there because that resembled how a garrote is fashioned, however the slip portion of it did not work/release as a true one should, so the assembly of it, and of how it was tied on JBR is really moot because all it does is point out staging.
     
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