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  1. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    Thank you for your posts KK. There IS a lot of misinformation going on here and I'm surprised and disappointed with some of the hate that's going on. I guess I must also be a terrible parent because when we go on our Eurpoean package holiday (ala McCann) we also leave our kids at the kids club to let us have some mum and dad time. We even need to get up early to book the spaces because all these other terrible British/German/Dutch parents have the same idea and slots get quickly booked out.

    I'm out.
    No, Jayelles, I don't think anyone would ever call you a bad parent, but quite the opposite. Personally, I wish you'd adopt me....

    I think it is more that we don't have such services in America, and our country is literally so large and diverse, we have lost a lot of trust to the point of being downright paranoid. Too much crime and violence portrayed on TV, I suspect.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

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    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    Ummm, I've also been to Europe, and there were some places with high door handles, and some with door handles at the "American" height. It varied from country to country, and from hotel to hostel to B&B. (We were college students on tour and weren't able to always stay at the finest hotels if you get my drift.) We traveled to England, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain, and France. There was every kind of toilet, room configuration and door. Of course, that was back in 1978. Perhaps with the European Union, they have passed a law that all door handles must be higher than the American average?

    Madeleine could have reached several of the door knobs in rooms where I stayed.
    Yes, but as I said, the hotels which are used by the larger ABTA holiday companies must comply to their standards. These companies often book out an entire hotel for the whole season. When you go to the hotels they have certificates all around the reception area stating that they pass the standards set by such and such a company. The Ocean Club is used by Thomas Cook - who are huge. The bread and butter of these companies is the family holiday (which is why they offer kids clubs and listening/babysitting services too). Apartments are usually pretty kid safe. The hotels we've been in had anti-slam devices on the doors and child locks on the kitchen cupboards. There was a scandal some years ago about unsafe cots in some of the resorts.

    THere is a big difference between these package holiday hotels and the pensions that a student would stay in on a back-packing holiday. Also, European laws have changed a lot in the past 15 years.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  3. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    (I hope this doesn't post twice, as I lost the first one.)

    Obviously, this is another polarizing case. I truly don't have the time to devote to learning about it well enough to debate it, though, right now. So I'll just say God speed, Maddie.
    Me too KK. I hurt for these parents but it pales in comparison to the hurt they are feeling themselves. There is an increasing amount of misinformation circulating about the case and the parents and I can't deal with someone telling me that I'm wrong about something I have considerable first hand experience of! It kind of reminds me of the time I answered the phone to have someone ask me if I was some fur shop. I said no - wrong number and they informed me that they did not have the wrong number. I replied that I wasn't the fur shop and that I suggested they check the telephone directory. Their response was that it was ME who should be doing the checking!

    There's obviously a cultural difference thing going on here too. I'm going to back off. I've had my eyes opened somewhat.

    You are a good person.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  4. #76
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    Regarding misinformation - here's a couple of examples of misinformation :-

    1) Kate McCann is not an emergency room doctor. She's a part-time GP.

    2) that the tapas bar was "two football pitches" distance from the McCann's apartment.

    A standard football pitch is between 100-130 yards long. OK, let's take the smallest size - 100 yards = 300 feet. Multiply by two and you've got 600 feet. It is being calimed that the tapas bar was 600 feet from the McCann's apartment.

    Now consider the size of a tennis court. A standard tennis court is 100feet long. That would mean that the length of two football pitches would be equivalent to 6 tennis courts laid end to end - right?

    Now look at the aerial photo of the Hotel complex where the McCanns stayed. I have marked the apartment and the tapas bar in yellow to pin point them beause I had to reduce the image to upload it and the writing isn't clear anymore.

    See the tennis courts? Could you fit six of them between the McCann apartment and the tapas bar?
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    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  5. #77
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    For me, the measurements mean nothing, Jay. There is still a gap between the two buildings, and the children were not in their familiar sleeping quarters. With one so young, I couldn't agree to an arrangement like that. To each his own.

    Having said that, it's understandable two busy working medical parents did put their trust in the establishment. It doesn't seem the hotel had security cameras set on each floor. Can you tell me anything about this? Isn't it normal procedure when small children are being left alone, to give parents peace of mind.

    I note there was a security camera at the pool entrance.

    I am sorry this little girl hasn'r been found yet
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #78

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    Wow, thanks for posting that diagram. By the way they were talking, I imagined that the Tapas Bar was right next to the apartment unobstructed.

    I don't think the child wandered off alone outside and it just so happened a pedophile was in her path and grabbed her. If this happened in a video arcade full of children, then maybe so, but not in a secluded resort like this. Someone was watching and knew this was the routine, the parents would leave the children alone in the room while they dined. If it were a lone offender, which is probably the case, he couldn't handle 3 children. Same reason why Elizabeth Smart's sister was not taken.

    I do not think these sorts of crimes occur in southern Europe very often. In fact, when I lived there I felt perfectly safe for my life and perfectly unsafe for my personal property. Theft is rampant. But murder,child abductions and rape is not something one even thinks about because it was so rare. The murders that did occur were either terrorism related or mafia type crimes. This is why the parents took what we consider a huge risk but may not be thought as such in a resort in Portugal.

    The parents made a poor decision, but they should not be punished any further. Just like Holloway, Van Dam and even Samantha Runnion- remember she was outside and the grandmother was inside the house and Adam Walsh, his mother left him at the video games while she looked at lamps-- these parents took risks which resulted in a tragedy. I am sure they are going to regret this poor judgement for the rest of their lives.

    I don't see where the parents were dishonest. Nancy Grace has a tendency to dramatize and exaggerate, you can't believe 100% what you hear on her show, from Anna Nicole to Paris Hilton, she exaggerates. If one group of parents were checking on all the kids every 30 minutes, I could see where the statement that " we checked every 30 minutes" would get out to the media and besides, it really is the truth whether is was the McCanns personally or one of their friends, what difference does it make, the children were still checked. I just think there are some cultural differences here including Portugese law enforcement (like Aruban) are bound by law to remain silent and not divulge any information about the investigation to the media or family.

    Thanks for the link to that forum, it appears you have to register before you can even read.

  7. #79
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    Default Let me make this clear

    I do not hate the parents. Hate is a different emotion entirely. They made a choice which I would not make and which I believe was wrong, even in the context of a cultural habit. I think that when you have children, especially small children who cannot use a cell phone or communicate on their own in any way, you have a deeper obligation to protect them than leaving them alone in a hotel room while you are out of sight and hearing. If the abduction had happened while the parents were in the shower, I'd have more sympathy. Or if they shut the door and went across the hall to get a Coke from a machine. But they didn't have anyone to "listen" to their children, and they didn't go check on them. That is a fact. Emotions aside, they did not even use the standard tools that Europeans use when in this situation.

    I think it is neglect when parents do this. Maybe they just aren't used to the way a parent thinks and feels about children - you know, that doesn't come naturally to everyone. It's a pity that neither of them refused to leave the babies.

    I will apologize for bringing in their dual careers. It's been my experience that people these days tend to put almost everything before the direct care for their children. Their jobs, career, hobbies, sports pursuits, exercise, friends, etc. all come before simple family responsibilities like spending time with their children, just being with them. It's go, go, go and do, do, do, and much of the time the interest is more in what the adults are doing and not what the kids need. People work and work just to get more stuff, when all the kids want is our time and love. OK, that was the end of my social commentary.

    The loss of Maddie is a deep tragedy, and I am sorry that she was taken. I pray they find her alive.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  8. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    I understand what you're saying, Pearlsim. I'm sure the parents have spent a lot of time wondering what the heck they were thnking, as parents, to take the risk they took. I imagine they're going to feel that guilt the rest of their lives.

    I also pray for the safe return of the child. I do wish the European press would quit bashing Americans while they're looking for her. It's not like we invented kidnapping, after all. Nor child murder.
    I have to agree with KK here on all counts. I am not blaming the parents for what happened to this little girl. I want to make that perfectly clear

    However, having said that, I also have to wonder "what were they thinking?" and again, cannot wonder any more than the parents themselves must be wondering. Here, when a parent or caregiver, when these things occur, have left their children sleeping at home just to run over half a block to the store and return home to find their children had woken up, set the house on fire, left the premises, fallen out of a window, etc. the sympathy factor is quite absent and the parents end up facing charges, etc. and in many cases, go to jail, if their negligence results in a death. They also have their other children taken away.

    While again, not blaming the parents for whomever took Madeleine, I do find some resentment in being compared to what happens here in America. We, as KK said, did not invent bad guys, kidnappers, predators, pedophiles, etc. It's a global issue, and I think cultural norms, while applicable in some aspects apply, the UNIVERSAL precautions, if you will, apply all over the globe. Children left alone, if there are NO bad guys around, are still children who can get into all sorts of trouble all by themselves and I think leaving little ones alone, sleeping or otherwise is irresponsible.

    Here, had this happened, rest assured there would be no visits with the pope, nor would there be an international effort to sympathize with the parents.

    And I do resent the America bashing.
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

    http://66.98.176.96/~tricia/forums/s...ead.php?t=6404

  9. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1
    For me, the measurements mean nothing, Jay. There is still a gap between the two buildings, and the children were not in their familiar sleeping quarters. With one so young, I couldn't agree to an arrangement like that. To each his own.

    Having said that, it's understandable two busy working medical parents did put their trust in the establishment. It doesn't seem the hotel had security cameras set on each floor. Can you tell me anything about this? Isn't it normal procedure when small children are being left alone, to give parents peace of mind.

    I note there was a security camera at the pool entrance.

    I am sorry this little girl hasn'r been found yet

    The measurements are important as an example of the misinformation which is being posted. It seems to me that somewhere along the line, "feet" got turned into "yards".

    I'm done with discussing this. The parents aren't suspects and I think they are already suffering enough.

    Sabrina - the apartment can be seen unobstructed from the tapas bar. They showed it on TV. The building you see in the photo is the "inside/covered" part of the restaurant but there are tables and chairs on the large area of patio outside.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  10. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    Ummm, I've also been to Europe, and there were some places with high door handles, and some with door handles at the "American" height. It varied from country to country, and from hotel to hostel to B&B. (We were college students on tour and weren't able to always stay at the finest hotels if you get my drift.) We traveled to England, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain, and France. There was every kind of toilet, room configuration and door. Of course, that was back in 1978. Perhaps with the European Union, they have passed a law that all door handles must be higher than the American average?

    Madeleine could have reached several of the door knobs in rooms where I stayed.

    This reminds me of a story that had been told countless times since I was a child

    When I was 3 years old, (a long, long, time ago), I naturally, awoke at a very early hour and was bored. Everyone else in the house was still asleep and I, already a genius , took a chair, while everyone was sleeping and unlocked the door and left to go outside.

    When the family awoke and found me missing, all hell broke loose with searching, etc. The police were called and lo and behold, they found me in an alleyway behind the buildings playing with the stray cats (even then LOL)

    The story was told then as just the "damndest and cutest thing" I ever did, including by the police department as back then, things were quite different I guess. After many years of retelling that story, the "cuteness" aspect of the story dwindled and realization of what might have been set in and the story was then told as a warning rather than an amusing anecdote of my childhood. You see, even back then, there were bad guys and pedophiles, and all sorts of horrible people who just missed an opportunity, although those things and media outlets were much smaller.

    I shudder to think that had this story been told as something that happened today, my mother would have been in deep trouble and possibly charged with a crime.

    So, times change, but children NEVER change and they just should ALWAYS be in the surroundings of an adult, as they need no help to get into trouble. They are quite capable all by themselves
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

    http://66.98.176.96/~tricia/forums/s...ead.php?t=6404

  11. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    Ummm, I've also been to Europe, and there were some places with high door handles, and some with door handles at the "American" height. It varied from country to country, and from hotel to hostel to B&B. (We were college students on tour and weren't able to always stay at the finest hotels if you get my drift.) We traveled to England, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain, and France. There was every kind of toilet, room configuration and door. Of course, that was back in 1978. Perhaps with the European Union, they have passed a law that all door handles must be higher than the American average?

    Madeleine could have reached several of the door knobs in rooms where I stayed.
    You must have an amazing memory! I can't remember the names of the resorts I stayed in 30 years ago let alone remember what the door handles/locks were like in the rooms!
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  12. #84

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    Did each apartment have an entrance or was there one main doorway with an inside hallway? Did they release info that they thought the abductor left through the window facing the parking lot/outside or is that a rumor?



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