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  1. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylin
    Elle_1,
    At first I thought the sketch was a joke. That sketch was shown to people in the town. How could they even identify a suspect if the eye, nose and lip shapes were missing? Then again, as you pointed out, the head is oddly shaped.
    I too hope she is found. I pray for her everyday, but the longer she's missing the less hopeful I become. Statistics prove she'll most likely never be found.
    Just read the crimeshots article, tylin. They are even suspecting the British translator, Robert Murat, who lives with his mother, since splitting with his wife. who offered to help the police. Apparently his own little girl resembles Madeleine McCann. Oh my goodness, this will not help this young man one bit, but every stone has to be turned, hasn't it?

    According to Murat's mother, he had dinner with her that same night Madeleine went missing.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #98
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    I understand completely Tylin. I don't think anyone DOESN'T feel for the parents.

    It's a horrific incident and as such, gets people very emotional on so many levels. It is polarizing at best

    We all pray for her safe return. That's something everyone can agree on
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

    http://66.98.176.96/~tricia/forums/s...ead.php?t=6404

  3. #99

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    Yes indeed Barbara.

  4. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbara
    When I was 3 years old, (a long, long, time ago), I naturally, awoke at a very early hour and was bored. Everyone else in the house was still asleep and I, already a genius , took a chair, while everyone was sleeping and unlocked the door and left to go outside.
    I do think the issue of door handle height is rather a moot point because if Madeleine had really wanted to go out the door for some reason, she would have found a way such as you did - by pulling up a chair to stand on, or whatever. What I think is interesting is the theory that she might have wandered out vs. being taken from the room. That was all I was saying.

  5. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    I do think the issue of door handle height is rather a moot point because if Madeleine had really wanted to go out the door for some reason, she would have found a way such as you did - by pulling up a chair to stand on, or whatever. What I think is interesting is the theory that she might have wandered out vs. being taken from the room. That was all I was saying.
    Has it been established either way? I haven't followed this case in great detail. Is it a possibility that she wandered off or do we know for sure she was taken?
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

    http://66.98.176.96/~tricia/forums/s...ead.php?t=6404

  6. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    You must have an amazing memory! I can't remember the names of the resorts I stayed in 30 years ago let alone remember what the door handles/locks were like in the rooms!
    I used to have an amazing memory. As I get older, my short-term memory has gotten progressively worse and rather shocking, but I can still remember useless information from the past like my old high school locker combination. I have trouble remembering what I did yesterday, but not the date of a classmate's birthday from elementary school. I've got all this info stored away that nobody needs, but can't remember squat about what I'm supposed to do today. :balloon:

    Anyway, one of the reasons I remember the door handles being different heights is because while we were staying in Florence, we were in such a bad neighborhood that we slept with the bedroom light on and the door barricaded with a chair. The door was an old wooden one with the door knob at the regular "American" height, and we fit the chair under the knob at an angle. Sirens blared all night, and I don't remember getting much sleep if any at all. That sort of thing will etch itself on your memory. While in Europe, we stayed at everything from modern hotels to run-down hostels. There was a wide variety of fixtures and furnishings. I'm sure all that has changed now.

    But like I told Barbara, it really doesn't matter. I was just answering Heymom who said that in her experience, all the European door handles were higher than American ones because I remember some of them not being that way back in the day.

    Like I said, I was just interested in the idea that Madeleine could have wandered out through the door and not been taken from the room. Now, there's another theory about her being taken through a window.

    Either way, it's a tragedy and a heartbreak.

  7. #103

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    She was raped....

    But she wore seductive clothes.

    She was sexually promiscuous.

    She was walking alone at night from a bar. She'd had drinks.

    She was making out with the guy.

    She went up to his room. She drank with him.

    She sent mixed messages.

    She took drugs.

    She's a prostitute, so she can't be raped.

    She left her windows unlocked.

    She didn't close her curtains at night.

    Why did she not call a cab?

    Why didn't she stay with her friends?

    Why didn't she fight?

    Why did she invite him in?

    Why did she not call police immediately?

    Why didn't she drive on her flat tire to a safer place?

    Etc., etc., etc.

    This is called BLAMING THE VICTIM.

    When you are trained to be a sexual assault victim advocate, THE FIRST THING YOU ARE TAUGHT IS NOT TO MAKE JUDGMENTS OR ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THE VICTIM'S BEHAVIOR.

    That's because THE PERPETRATOR IS THE ONE WHO IS THE CRIMINAL, NOT THE VICTIM.

    What I don't understand is why so few here see that this is the same principle when these parents are picked apart as if THEY ARE THE CRIMINALS.

    Would they change what is now seen as "risky behavior" after the fact? Sure they would, I'd bet a lot on that.

    But is there any woman here who has not had a drink in a bar, left or been left behind by her friends for some reason, walked at night alone somewhere, not had a flat tire and stopped, worn seductive clothing to go dancing, trusted a date and/or male friend, etc.?

    If you didn't get raped, trust me when I say you were lucky, because MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN RAPED UNDER JUST THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. Did they get asked these questions? Too often, you bet! And HOW does the victim HEAR that question? YOU MADE A BAD CHOICE AND THEREFORE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING YOURSELF RAPED. Oh, yeah, that's EXACTLY what they hear, because THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE QUESTION CLEARLY IMPLIES THE QUESTIONER IS THINKING.

    It's called RE-VICTIMIZATION: first she's RAPED by a RAPIST who simply took advantage of a situation that is as common as turning 21; then she's RE-INJURED, albeit psychologically, by being ACCUSED of COLLUSION of some nature IN HER OWN RAPE.

    See how that works?

    So no, I'm NOT going to RE-VICTIMIZE these parents. Yeah, I understand that they made a choice they'd give a lot to take back NOW, and I understand talking about it on some level. But to bash them OVER AND OVER as BAD PARENTS is just too much for some of us who have found in a lifetime of parenting that WE HAVE MADE CHOICES IN PARENTING THAT EASILY COULD HAVE LED TO DISASTER IF ONLY SOME PERVERT HAD BEEN THERE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE AT THE TIME. BRENDA VAN DAM did nothing CULPABLE that led to the MURDER of her child by a HUMAN MONSTER; neither did the grandmother who let a child play with another child in the yard; neither did John Walsh's wife when she left her child watching children play vidoe games to look at products an aisle over, never imagining that the store employee would run them outside. THE GUILTY PARTIES IN ALL THESE CASES ARE THE PERPS AND ONLY THE PERPS.

    So you can blast these parents all you want, but you are WRONG to BLAME THEM, even through IMPLICATION, for the CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR of the person that abducted the child from her bed.

    That's all I'm going to say about this, because I love all of you and do not want ill feelings over any of this. That only perpetuates the wave of evil the devil has let lose to steal an innocent child from her parents.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #104
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbara
    I
    Here, when a parent or caregiver, when these things occur, have left their children sleeping at home just to run over half a block to the store and return home to find their children had woken up, set the house on fire, left the premises, fallen out of a window, etc. the sympathy factor is quite absent and the parents end up facing charges, etc. and in many cases, go to jail, if their negligence results in a death. They also have their other children taken away.
    In fact, in my city, just the other day, a little 3-year-old girl died because the apartment she was in caught fire, between the time her mom's boyfriend left for work, and her mom got back from work. They were accustomed to leaving the children - 2 girls, I believe, one 6 and one 3 - home alone, sleeping, for just 1/2 hour as one left and one was coming home. It was enough time for an emergency to occur. The older girl actually got the baby out of the apartment but the baby was scared and ran back INTO the smoke. A horrible, horrible tragedy. The mother and the boyfriend will almost certainly be charged with neglect and endangerment.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  9. #105
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    Pardon me, KK, but the parents are not the victim in this case: Maddie is. We are most certainly NOT blaming Maddie for her own kidnapping, but we ARE blaming the parents for the lack of judgement in keeping their children safe.

    Blaming a rape victim for her attack is not the same as criticizing parents who show a lack of good sense and don't protect their children.

    If the parents had left Maddie in a hot car while they went to dinner and she died, would anyone be defending the parents? Why is this different?
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  10. #106
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    She was raped....

    But she wore seductive clothes.

    She was sexually promiscuous.

    She was walking alone at night from a bar. She'd had drinks.

    She was making out with the guy.

    She went up to his room. She drank with him.

    She sent mixed messages.

    She took drugs.

    She's a prostitute, so she can't be raped.

    She left her windows unlocked.

    She didn't close her curtains at night.

    Why did she not call a cab?

    Why didn't she stay with her friends?

    Why didn't she fight?

    Why did she invite him in?

    Why did she not call police immediately?

    Why didn't she drive on her flat tire to a safer place?

    Etc., etc., etc.

    This is called BLAMING THE VICTIM.

    When you are trained to be a sexual assault victim advocate, THE FIRST THING YOU ARE TAUGHT IS NOT TO MAKE JUDGMENTS OR ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THE VICTIM'S BEHAVIOR.

    That's because THE PERPETRATOR IS THE ONE WHO IS THE CRIMINAL, NOT THE VICTIM.

    What I don't understand is why so few here see that this is the same principle when these parents are picked apart as if THEY ARE THE CRIMINALS.

    Would they change what is now seen as "risky behavior" after the fact? Sure they would, I'd bet a lot on that.

    But is there any woman here who has not had a drink in a bar, left or been left behind by her friends for some reason, walked at night alone somewhere, not had a flat tire and stopped, worn seductive clothing to go dancing, trusted a date and/or male friend, etc.?

    If you didn't get raped, trust me when I say you were lucky, because MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN RAPED UNDER JUST THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. Did they get asked these questions? Too often, you bet! And HOW does the victim HEAR that question? YOU MADE A BAD CHOICE AND THEREFORE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING YOURSELF RAPED. Oh, yeah, that's EXACTLY what they hear, because THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE QUESTION CLEARLY IMPLIES THE QUESTIONER IS THINKING.

    It's called RE-VICTIMIZATION: first she's RAPED by a RAPIST who simply took advantage of a situation that is as common as turning 21; then she's RE-INJURED, albeit psychologically, by being ACCUSED of COLLUSION of some nature IN HER OWN RAPE.

    See how that works?

    So no, I'm NOT going to RE-VICTIMIZE these parents. Yeah, I understand that they made a choice they'd give a lot to take back NOW, and I understand talking about it on some level. But to bash them OVER AND OVER as BAD PARENTS is just too much for some of us who have found in a lifetime of parenting that WE HAVE MADE CHOICES IN PARENTING THAT EASILY COULD HAVE LED TO DISASTER IF ONLY SOME PERVERT HAD BEEN THERE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE AT THE TIME. BRENDA VAN DAM did nothing CULPABLE that led to the MURDER of her child by a HUMAN MONSTER; neither did the grandmother who let a child play with another child in the yard; neither did John Walsh's wife when she left her child watching children play vidoe games to look at products an aisle over, never imagining that the store employee would run them outside. THE GUILTY PARTIES IN ALL THESE CASES ARE THE PERPS AND ONLY THE PERPS.

    So you can blast these parents all you want, but you are WRONG to BLAME THEM, even through IMPLICATION, for the CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR of the person that abducted the child from her bed.

    That's all I'm going to say about this, because I love all of you and do not want ill feelings over any of this. That only perpetuates the wave of evil the devil has let lose to steal an innocent child from her parents.
    KK,

    I would never revictimize anyone, and I am not doing that here either. My heart goes out to them, as only by the grace of God have any of us NOT had something terrible happen to our children when we either just looked away, didn't pay attention, etc., But had something happened to them when any one of us might have been careless at some point, we would blame ourselves forever and while we wouldn't be to BLAME, we certainly would have been responsible on some level just because we are parents. I know, speaking for myself, there were times when errors of judgement caused a fall, or other small injury that certainly could have been worse, but only pure luck saves every parent from disaster at some point. We can't be everywhere and we have all made poor judgement calls; we were lucky; they weren't.

    Like I said, had the room gone up in flames or the children somehow caused themselves great harm by being alone, I feel that the parents woud have received endless criticism

    It wasn't so long ago that we all were criticizing Patsy for leaving Burke alone, then three, even for a while when Patsy went to the hospital to give birth to JBR. And she had someone on the way to watch him. Had something happened to Burke in the interim, no doubt we would have jumped on that as more evidence of not so perfect parenting

    I don't see what the difference is. Perhaps as I said earlier, it's the vast amount of reverence we are paying to the parents, when under any other circumstances, the world wouldn't have been so generous about it.

    Regardless, my thoughts and prayers are for Maddie's safe return and also for her parents.
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

    http://66.98.176.96/~tricia/forums/s...ead.php?t=6404

  11. #107
    Join Date
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    I know this is a terrible case, and my heart goes out to this child, regardless of the circumstances...but the most important thing...the one everyone should focus on, and never divert from, is getting Maddie home...until then, nothing else matters, and I mean NOTHING.

    Until then, we won't have all the facts
    Until then, we will hear conflicting stories from the media
    Until then, we can only make assumptions
    Until then, we can all say we would have done things differently
    Until then, we don't want to vilify the parents when we all have something we have done and we lucked out...
    Until then, Maddie AND her parents are both victims of a different nature

    Until then, NOTHING is more important than bringing this child home.


    Let's save the in-fighting and beating up the parents for later, n'cest pas?
    It's probably too late to get justice for JonBenét. Maybe it always was. But knowing where things went wrong is the first step to not going there again. **-- Alan Prendergast-Dec 21, 2006--**

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    Prayers for our military who are protecting our freedom.

  12. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moab
    I know this is a terrible case, and my heart goes out to this child, regardless of the circumstances...but the most important thing...the one everyone should focus on, and never divert from, is getting Maddie home...until then, nothing else matters, and I mean NOTHING.

    Until then, we won't have all the facts
    Until then, we will hear conflicting stories from the media
    Until then, we can only make assumptions
    Until then, we can all say we would have done things differently
    Until then, we don't want to vilify the parents when we all have something we have done and we lucked out...
    Until then, Maddie AND her parents are both victims of a different nature

    Until then, NOTHING is more important than bringing this child home.


    Let's save the in-fighting and beating up the parents for later, n'cest pas?
    That's exactly what I meant.
    "She wore him like wet underwear"

    “Some explanations of a crime are not explanations: they're part of the crime.” Olavo de Cavarlho



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