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  1. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    There is no evidence that John abused JonBenet. There is a lot of evidence, anecdotal and factual, that Patsy abused JonBenet. Yet people have the opinion that a male sexually abused JonBenet based on the indication of vaginal damage. It is too simple a conclusion to reach: vaginal abuse of a female must have been done by a male for sexual reasons.

    A cursory knowledge of the case would point to the mother as the main perp on several levels. And the jump from vaginal abuse to a sex motive is not always warranted.
    This is a very delicate subject to talk about, Paradox, but I am one of several posters who thought that Patsy Ramsey's punishment for JonBenét may have been vigorous cleansing, and I personally could see Patsy Ramsey being very bad tempered about JonBenét's chronic bed wetting situation, although she tried to shrug it off as if it was no big deal with her. Whose to say she didn't use one of those very rough kitchen cleaners (?). This for sure would very easily cause abrasions.

    I cannot see John Ramsey in this incest role, because he was known to have had a mistress, and his little six year old daughter could not give him the sexual satisfaction he was accustomed to having. I do have problems naming John Ramsey as the culprit here. I would rather hear that it was Burke and his friends experimenting as children often do.

    John Ramsey was a CEO and worked beside women, and must have had the opportunity to be amongst many women, who are attracted to these business men.

    There are cruel mothers out there, and I remember Ron Walker, the FBI agent who was on TV being interviewed, and when asked if he thought parents could be capable of attacking their children like JonBenét's situation, he said parents were very capable about doing just everything and anything to harm a child. He knew that for sure.

    JonBenét was definitely in the rebellious stage against her domineering beauty queen mother, Patsy Ramsey, and I feel that Patsy Ramsey was just plain ticked off with little JonBenét's behaviour, and as Steve Thomas stated, she was very harassed with all that she had to do at that particular time on the 25 December, 1996.

    Having said all of the above, this is jmo. There are many posters out there
    who know much more than I do about sexual abuse.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #26
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    Murphy mentions the visits to the doctor as a cry for help by the mother. Good for her. She also brings up the importance of the pineapple, but neglects the spoon and milk and the tea. She lastly says the perp may yet spend time in jail. So she leans toward JDI.

    She's more focussed on the legal machinations than the investigation of the case.

  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1
    This is a very delicate subject to talk about, Paradox, but I am one of several posters who thought that Patsy Ramsey's punishment for JonBenét may have been vigorous cleansing, and I personally could see Patsy Ramsey being very bad tempered about JonBenét's chronic bed wetting situation, although she tried to shrug it off as if it was no big deal with her. Whose to say she didn't use one of those very rough kitchen cleaners (?). This for sure would very easily cause abrasions.

    I cannot see John Ramsey in this incest role, because he was known to have had a mistress, and his little six year old daughter could not give him the sexual satisfaction he was accustomed to having. I do have problems naming John Ramsey as the culprit here. I would rather hear that it was Burke and his friends experimenting as children often do.

    John Ramsey was a CEO and worked beside women, and must have had the opportunity to be amongst many women, who are attracted to these business men.

    There are cruel mothers out there, and I remember Ron Walker, the FBI agent who was on TV being interviewed, and when asked if he thought parents could be capable of attacking their children like JonBenét's situation, he said parents were very capable about doing just everything and anything to harm a child. He knew that for sure.

    JonBenét was definitely in the rebellious stage against her domineering beauty queen mother, Patsy Ramsey, and I feel that Patsy Ramsey was just plain ticked off with little JonBenét's behaviour, and as Steve Thomas stated, she was very harassed with all that she had to do at that particular time on the 25 December, 1996.

    Having said all of the above, this is jmo. There are many posters out there
    who know much more than I do about sexual abuse.
    There is the fact that people sometimes commit the sin they themselves have suffered at the hands of another in childhood. Looking at the Paugh family, Patsy and Pam certainly had their problems. Due to what, an abusive narcissistic mother with an enabling husband or a molesting father with an enabling wife?

    From the stories about Nedra I can see her as a narcissist. And John certainly enabled his wife's excesses. The evidence supports the pattern of narcissistic women with enabling husbands.
    Last edited by Paradox; September 18, 2007, 8:04 pm at Tue Sep 18 20:04:21 UTC 2007.

  4. #28
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    And none of the men involved in this case repeatedly portrayed a scene on stage taken from a book that revolves around narcissistic abuse.

  5. #29

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    I think is should be said we haven't seen Tom Miller's book, so we don't know why it might or might not sell. His press release is very well written, but if he is naming names and making accusations against people, it probably means a law suit is guaranteed. A publisher might weight that against possible profits, considering this is an old case. If there's nothing new in the book, or nothing with substantial new evidence to back up any accusations, maybe publishers just don't feel the cost of a suit and publishing will be recouped by sales. It's a business to them.

    Murphy on the other hand is often on TV, has many fans, is a known celebrity with guaranteed sales. I'm sure her book was seriously combed and edited to ensure no suit would succeed.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    There is no evidence that John abused JonBenet. There is a lot of evidence, anecdotal and factual, that Patsy abused JonBenet. Yet people have the opinion that a male sexually abused JonBenet based on the indication of vaginal damage. It is too simple a conclusion to reach: vaginal abuse of a female must have been done by a male for sexual reasons.

    A cursory knowledge of the case would point to the mother as the main perp on several levels. And the jump from vaginal abuse to a sex motive is not always warranted.
    I agree with you on that Paradox. I just don't see John doing this. I think Patsy did not know how to handle the constant rashes and wet underwear and wet sheets. At times, the bedwetting was daily and she told her friend she was concerned about the damp underwear. Linda Hoffman-P says there was daily screaming and crying coming from JonBenet and Patsy from JB's bathroom.

  7. #31
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    Sboyd, so you believe that the abuse JonBenet suffered was secondary to her bedwetting - that Patsy punished JonBenet vaginally, either through anger or brutal cleaning, for wetting the bed?

    Because I see the bedwetting as a symptom of the abuse - JonBenet had been potty trained and I believe at one point she was basically dry, and then her bedwetting escalated. I think that she was responding to inappropriate contact, and her body was responding from the stress, too. It is very common for younger abuse victims to present with urinary tract infections and vaginal infections that they should not be getting. Their bodies are not ready for the kind of contact they are experiencing.

    Fecal incontinence is extreme, and if it's not caused by a medical problem, I would suspect abuse. No child of age 6 wants to make a mess in her underwear or her bed.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  8. #32
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    I never considered Patsy using vaginal punishment. I always thought that JonBenet's regression insofar as bedwetting and general incontinence was due to the pressures put on her for the pageants, performances, and overall being a little trophy kid for her mother, aunts and grandmother.

    I don't think that kid had a minute where she was allowed to be anything other than a bleached blonde, made up, violin lesson, dance lesson, singing lesson, ballet lesson taking little girl who wasn't given the time to take a breath long enough to just be a kid.

    And I almost forgot: FRENCH LESSONS
    PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE
    SHE WOULDN'T DO THAT FOR AN INTRUDER.
    PLEASE READ CHEROKEE'S ANALYSIS

    http://66.98.176.96/~tricia/forums/s...ead.php?t=6404

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom
    Sboyd, so you believe that the abuse JonBenet suffered was secondary to her bedwetting - that Patsy punished JonBenet vaginally, either through anger or brutal cleaning, for wetting the bed?

    Because I see the bedwetting as a symptom of the abuse - JonBenet had been potty trained and I believe at one point she was basically dry, and then her bedwetting escalated. I think that she was responding to inappropriate contact, and her body was responding from the stress, too. It is very common for younger abuse victims to present with urinary tract infections and vaginal infections that they should not be getting. Their bodies are not ready for the kind of contact they are experiencing.

    Fecal incontinence is extreme, and if it's not caused by a medical problem, I would suspect abuse. No child of age 6 wants to make a mess in her underwear or her bed.
    Now see I read that when Patsy got sick, JonBenet was handed over to Nedra who completely let the training go and by the time Patsy took over JonBenet was wetting her bed. Did she train her after that?

    I don't know that she had fecal incontinence or that she was just inept at cleaning after using the bathroom. She was 5 years old, six years. This is still very young and children are not good at it. I would not be surprised if the bedwetting also had something to do with the pageants. That is a tremendous amount of pressure for a child and it could have manifested itself in bedwetting. Where I read that as soon as Patsy's attentions turned to JonBenet, Burke stopped wetting the bed, I don't know. I know I read it. I also am not sure that she had infections, rashes yes, but I do not believe she had infections. Infections is quite something different and I do not believe I read anywhere that she had infections.

    Also, I could see Patsy cleaning her very severely from just being angry. Linda said she heard daily crying and screaming. Patsy said she was concerned about the damp underwear which kept the rashes going. She was using topical ointment on her. She mentioned it to Dr. Boeuf although she denies it. ST had the records documenting her asking him about bedwetting.

    I can see Patsy being very strict about it but she was also it seems extremely spoiled and use to getting her way so it is hard to teach a child one thing and let them get away with everything else.

  10. #34

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    In the search for a more innocent reason for JonBenet's injuries I had wondered about the creams that can be bought for yeast infections that are "somewhat" intrusive.

    Little

  11. #35
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    If that is true, that Nedra took JonBenet's care over when Patsy was sick, and JonBenet regressed in her toilet training, that's a factor. I wasn't necessarily saying JonBenet had vaginal infections, or bladder infections, just that it's very common for abuse victims to have these medical problems. I wonder why JonBenet was seeing the doctor so often. Didn't I read where she had a bladder infection supposedly from bubble bath? Or was that just irritation? At any rate, no, I don't think much of anything specific can be concluded, because the doctor's records were at least sealed, more than likely disposed of.

    But the vaginal penetration had happened before the night JonBenet died. Do you think Patsy would have stuck some instrument up inside JonBenet? If she did this, then she must also have been abused. You don't do that kind of thing unless it's been done to you.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom
    If that is true, that Nedra took JonBenet's care over when Patsy was sick, and JonBenet regressed in her toilet training, that's a factor. I wasn't necessarily saying JonBenet had vaginal infections, or bladder infections, just that it's very common for abuse victims to have these medical problems. I wonder why JonBenet was seeing the doctor so often. Didn't I read where she had a bladder infection supposedly from bubble bath? Or was that just irritation? At any rate, no, I don't think much of anything specific can be concluded, because the doctor's records were at least sealed, more than likely disposed of.

    But the vaginal penetration had happened before the night JonBenet died. Do you think Patsy would have stuck some instrument up inside JonBenet? If she did this, then she must also have been abused. You don't do that kind of thing unless it's been done to you.

    I don't know. She could have been douching JonBenet as horrible as it sounds. Steve Thomas says corporal cleaning. This sounds like corporal cleaning to me.

    You know, I inevitably come back to Thomas' beliefs, inevitably.

    I think it was as he said. I don't think John was abusing her. I think Patsy was in the guise of cleanliness. I am not saying she got a thrill out of it. I am saying she was angry and tired of it and she was abusive.



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