New Book- "And Justice For Some" by Wendy Murphy

[JoeJame]

huh? Paradox...you do crack me up.

[koldkase]

Let me emphasize that Murphy "MIGHT" do a chat here. Nothing official so far. I hope things work out, but I'm sure Wendy is busy and scheduling might be an issue. Let's wait and see.

[sboyd]

No, I understand what you are saying. It's just that an angry mother who has never been abused would not abuse her daughter with a douching instrument. She might spank, yell, or even smack, but only someone who had been abused in that area would feel that kind of rage that would cause her to think of douching a 6-year-old little girl. It's a violation, isn't it? And if you have been violated, then you can also violate others. If Patsy did this, then it's a real indictment of her parents, certainly Nedra, and also explains the weird comments of that babysitter who was putting cream on Burke and exclaiming about the size of his equipment. It seems as if boundary violations were the norm in Patsy's family, and maybe there was a lot more physical abuse than mere inappropriate comments.

I wonder if Nedra could have been the source of JonBenet's abuse.

HeyMom,

Maybe Patsy did not look at it as abuse. If JB had rashes from wet underwear, Patsy may have thought she was doing something good for her in keeping her clean. But this is just a guess since Colorado said it was common knowledge that this was going on. I believe Colorado said that and that she could not name her source.

So it is supposition on my part. But the physical results were there and Thomas believed it was corporal cleaning. So what else is there but douching. It is very invasive and sort of "see what we have to do because you will not learn to do this correctly". Patsy certainly could have left abrasions if she were doing this.

[sboyd]

There is no evidence that John abused JonBenet. There is a lot of evidence, anecdotal and factual, that Patsy abused JonBenet. Yet people have the opinion that a male sexually abused JonBenet based on the indication of vaginal damage. It is too simple a conclusion to reach: vaginal abuse of a female must have been done by a male for sexual reasons.

A cursory knowledge of the case would point to the mother as the main perp on several levels. And the jump from vaginal abuse to a sex motive is not always warranted.

I agree Paradox.

[heymom]

HeyMom,

Maybe Patsy did not look at it as abuse. If JB had rashes from wet underwear, Patsy may have thought she was doing something good for her in keeping her clean. But this is just a guess since Colorado said it was common knowledge that this was going on. I believe Colorado said that and that she could not name her source.

So it is supposition on my part. But the physical results were there and Thomas believed it was corporal cleaning. So what else is there but douching. It is very invasive and sort of "see what we have to do because you will not learn to do this correctly". Patsy certainly could have left abrasions if she were doing this.

No, I'm sorry, but only if you have been abused, you might consider this "cleaning." No way would a person who had not been violated ever consider such a thing. Acting out on another person in that way is a way of externalizing your own anger and guilt. If Patsy was the molester, then she had been molested herself. I am 100% certain of that. One would NEVEr consider such an act unless one's own body had been violated first.

[Paradox]

If Patsy was the molester, then she had been molested herself. One would NEVEr consider such an act unless one's own body had been violated first.

I don't totally agree heymom. Patsy "violated" JonBenet on several levels. Was Patsy violated on all these levels as well, making her more likely to violate others in the same manner? Does the initial violation have to be sexual? Is that the most potent violation?

I think psychological damage can come from non corporal experiences that lead to disruption of libido flow in any number of behaviors. There need not be a one to one correspondence between experience and repeated behaviors. Afterall, murderers need not experience being murdered to murder others, do they?

[Elle_1]

HeyMom,

Maybe Patsy did not look at it as abuse. If JB had rashes from wet underwear, Patsy may have thought she was doing something good for her in keeping her clean. But this is just a guess since Colorado said it was common knowledge that this was going on. I believe Colorado said that and that she could not name her source.

So it is supposition on my part. But the physical results were there and Thomas believed it was corporal cleaning. So what else is there but douching. It is very invasive and sort of "see what we have to do because you will not learn to do this correctly". Patsy certainly could have left abrasions if she were doing this.

Yes you're right, sb, Steve Thomas did think this. I wouldn't have put it past Nedra Paugh to have been aggressive with her girls when they were younger. Who knows what goes on in any household with a domineering mother (?). I personally feel that Patsy Ramsey was a bad tempered w-b-i-t-c-h. Pick a letter, either one will do, and I think with JonBenét rebelling against Patsy about clothes, and goodness knows what else, I could see her being on the cruel side to little JonBenét.

Linda Hoffman Pugh's account of JonBenét was not flattering, she was very rude to her. When you think about it. LHP had only worked with the Ramseys since September 2006. Up until then, Linda Wilcox worked there for two and a half years, and she stated to Peter Boyles that both Burke and JonBenét were bedwetters, with Burke being 7 when she went to work there. Both of the children wore pullups.

[heymom]

I don't totally agree heymom. Patsy "violated" JonBenet on several levels. Was Patsy violated on all these levels as well, making her more likely to violate others in the same manner? Does the initial violation have to be sexual? Is that the most potent violation?

I think psychological damage can come from non corporal experiences that lead to disruption of libido flow in any number of behaviors. There need not be a one to one correspondence between experience and repeated behaviors. Afterall, murderers need not experience being murdered to murder others, do they?

Yes, Patsy did violate JonBenet's boundaries in many different ways. I suppose little JonBenet was never meant to even have boundaries, since she didn't even have her own name, but an amalgam of her father's first and middle names, and her middle name came from her mother.

I don't know how Patsy was violated, but I suspect she was, in all ways, mentally, emotionally, and physically. She has many of the hallmarks of someone who has been molested and abused.

Yes, I would say that the most potent violation is sexual.

No, a person who kills obviously has not already been killed, but many of them are soul-dead when they kill. I believe some people are destined for evil, and some are turned that way through environment. I don't believe Patsy was wholly evil. I believe John Ramsey may well be but covers it better. He's smarter than OJ.

I believe that IF Patsy had been the one who sexually violated JonBenet, she would have to have been sexually violated herself in some way, either by her father or her mother, most likely her mother. Otherwise it is repugnant to think of hurting your child in that way.

John Ramsey may or may not also have been abused. We don't seem to know a whole lot about his family of origin.

[Paradox]

Children often dissociate when they are in situations they cannot tolerate. They "aren't there" or they become someone else momentarily. I wonder if Patsy repeated that experience as well when she violated JonBenet, becoming someome else, say Nedra or Sandy Stranger? And did little Patsy turn into an angel and fly to safety when the offending fingers found their mark?

[heymom]

Children often dissociate when they are in situations they cannot tolerate. They "aren't there" or they become someone else momentarily. I wonder if Patsy repeated that experience as well when she violated JonBenet, becoming someome else, say Nedra or Sandy Stranger? And did little Patsy turn into an angel and fly to safety when the offending fingers found their mark?

It is something we will never know, Paradox, but yes, children do dissociate when abused, when the pain becomes overwhelming and they can't do anything about it.

If Patsy was abusing JonBenet in any way, she may not have been splitting off into someone else, but just acting out the rage she could never express as a child or young adult. If JonBenet refused to cooperate with Patsy's plans, Patsy would have become furious, because Patsy herself could never have refused violations.

[The Punisher]

Wendy, I'll be waiting.

In a completely unrelated story, a weird thing happened to me at work yesterday. I was preparing a shipment of mail for Atlanta, GA, and just by chance, I came upon a letter addressed to someone in what I assume was an Atlanta suburb. The name?

Ms. Patricia A. Ramsey

I stared at it for a minute, and then I started to laugh. And I couldn't stop!

Does anyone think it could be the same person? The "Ms." as opposed to "Mrs." makes me think not, but it would be one hell of a co-inky-dink for someone in the same city to have the same name, right down to the middle initial!

And if it is the same, I guess they didn't get the news yet! But then, it wouldn't be the first time the gummit messed up!

[rashomon]

Children often dissociate when they are in situations they cannot tolerate. They "aren't there" or they become someone else momentarily. I wonder if Patsy repeated that experience as well when she violated JonBenet, becoming someome else, say Nedra or Sandy Stranger?

I would rule out the fictional character Sandy Stranger. That's stretching it too far imo.

I do think Patsy dissociated herself from things though. She dissociated herself from her rage attack on Jonbenet on that fatal night.
The FBI CASKU experts hid it dead center when pointing out the double purpose of the ransom note: that it not only served to misdirect LE and focus attention elsewhere, but also was a cathartic act allowing the offender to "undo" the crime in his/her own mind.
I believe the bizarre 'garrote' scene staged in the wine cellar served this two-fold purpose too: misdirecting LE and enabling Patsy to disconnect herself from the true cause of JonBenet's death: the head injury she had inflicted on her daughter.