Who made this hanging noose?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Dec 25, 2007.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    It's been 11 years tonight since an evil was unleashed upon the innocent child JonBenet and many others in its wake. We have come to these forums ever since looking for justice, then trying to understand the injustice.

    I only recently was given a copy of one of the books spawned by this violence, JonBenet's Mother, by Patsy's dear friend and old high school teacher, Linda McLean, published in 1998. I have never seen it before and was shocked to find A PICTURE inside that leaves troubling questions: Why have I never seen this picture before, in all the years on the forums and the Internet, all the "documentaries", books, and articles? Have appropriate questions about this picture and what it contains been asked by LE? Have they seen it? Has Lou Smit, who surely would find it disturbing, if he indeed is after justice for JonBenet? Have others who have claimed for so long to be seeking "the killer", no matter whom that might be? I don't know. But I do know the questions about the picture should have been asked long, long ago. NEED to be asked. There are MANY who could answer them, even today. If they have been asked, then what were the answers?

    I've said from the beginning that LE needs to find out who made the garrote by finding WITNESSES who saw him/her make something similar BEFORE the murder. While the ransom note is important, the garrote is the SMOKING GUN, because that's what killed her. I still find it hard to believe that the killer wouldn't have ever made such a thing before, for whatever reason. For example, it's not unusual for a person to make one while learning knots, or just children playing cowboys and Indians, making Halloween decorations, and for less savory reasons, as we all know by now.

    And so here is a picture of a hangman's noose in a festive "Western Theme" display, with Patsy, Burke, and JonBenet smiling, so close. It may be a coincidence, but it's too MUCH coincidence for the questions NOT to be asked. We could have a PICTURE of the prototype for the garrote. Can you see the hangman's noose only a few feet from a child who was strangled with a similar one only months later? WHO MADE THIS NOOSE IN THIS DISPLAY? DID ANYONE EVEN ASK?
     

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  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here is the caption that was under the picture:

    I don't know who took the picture, but this "project" was described in the book by Susan Stine, who met the Ramseys when their children went to school together in kindergarten:


    So...I asked jams about this picture at topix, and she said she doesn't think it's important because it's not the same cord and not the same garrote. But how can she know that, if she never saw this one up close? She seems to either not have ever noticed, or she dismissed it. Why would someone who collects DNA from strangers looking for the intruder not even think it's worth questioning who made a hangman's noose right there in this picture?

    Of course we know why: look at the context of how that noose got made and displayed. Still, if you believe there was an intruder, why wouldn't you want to know WHO made that noose? It could be that ONE LINK, that "ONE PERSON WHO KNOWS SOMETHING", as Patsy said...though she seems not to have noticed that a noose was created in her own home for decorations shortly before JonBenet was strangled with one.

    So I thought on this eleventh anniversary of the murder of JonBenet, it was something worth considering. It's the first evidence I've seen of any other noose/garrote in this case, besides the one found on JonBenet.

    Maybe I've been here way too long, but it just seems important.

    Close-up view of the noose.
     

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  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks Cherokee for putting the pic up and a close-up, as well.

    I can't tell for sure, but it looks as if it's a double noose, as there seems to be two loops, or maybe the second one is the rope end, dangling in a curl, or maybe there's another explanation. I don't believe it's a "lasso", which has been suggested, but what would they be lasso-ing? A cat? A lasso would be much bigger, IMO.

    Now that I'm looking at it in this larger format, using my computer maginifer, it looks like the second loop is actually tied to the other one on the right side, as well...? And the rope seems to be tucked in under the pants leg of the dummy a bit, and that's where the second "loop" seems to enter the configuration...? And is that a black plastic tie at the top of the "noose", over the knot? I can't make the knots out very well, in either case. This is strange. Either it has some other purpose or significance to a "cowboy" theme, or it's a mess. Any ideas?

    Also, I noticed the LIGHT COLORED GLOVES on the dummy on the right. There is something around the wrists, maybe to tie on the gloves...?
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    I think the garrotte in the JonBenét crime played the same part, a prop, as this noose in this cowboy theme, KK, because Delmar England proved the garrotte was not a properly made garrotte because of the knotting, and wouldn't have worked properly. I won't say any more than this, because I get tied in knots, excuse the pun, trying to understand the knotting.

    It has been such a long time since I read Delmar's analysis, and I would need to go back and read them again. My husband gave me a demonstration at the time Delmar was talking about it, but I've forgotten all about it again, and don't want to make mistakes.

    I think it's good you're asking who was responsible for making the noose prop. Maybe it was Patsy herself (?).
     
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I added some questions in my post above yours, Elle, because I used a magnifier and found some other odd things about this "noose" that I can't figure out. Maybe it's a horse's bit or some such--though I have no idea what a horse's bit would be like. I don't get why the second loop is tied to the first, nor why a plastic tie would have been used, unless the person making it didn't know how to make a noose or a bit or whatever it's supposed to be, and was simulating either one as best they could. Seeker, a poster who has horses, might know. Maybe she'll see this and weigh in.

    But someone was working with ropes and knots at the very least, and it would be interesting to know who, considering the cord and knots used in the murder. Maybe it's not related at all. But it's too close for comfort, considering the cirumstances. JMO

    I remember Why Nut once posted an edit of this picture, to compare this rope with rope which can be seen in the Ramsey's basement in the crime scene pics. But I never saw the "noose" in them. Maybe I just missed it. I tried to find this picture online, but can't. It could have been years ago and has been taken down as much has over time.
     
  6. Zotto

    Zotto FFJ Senior Member

    Good questions and good pick-up KK. I've never seen that photo previously. You can bet your bottom dollar that if Patsy helped with the display, then the creative Patsy probably helped make the props.
     
  7. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    I don't recall ever seeing that photo either. Of course, who remembers everything they've seen after ELEVEN YEARS???

    Good find KK and certainly worth asking about; especially (for me) since Susan Stine was around and discussing this Western theme. Surely, SHE would know where the noose came from

    This could certainly be one of the pieces of "evidence" that was conveniently ignored

    Gee KK, after eleven years, you are still coming up with something worthy and new to discuss. You're a good guttah groupie!

    and smart too

    Rest in peace JonBenet.

    Here we all are so many years later, on this anniversary still seeking justice for a little girl who will probably never receive it.

    So sad
     
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you for starting this thread, KK.

    I saw the second loop too, but I took this to be a reflection of this bottom part against glass; maybe the top of a window. I need to see more of the bottom part of this photo if this part was cropped (?) to get a clearer view. Maybe Why_Nut will see your thread and let you know. We all know rope was found under John Andrew's bed, and there was a discussion about the rope being used as props for a photo shoot of JonBenét, or related to John's boat. You'll remember this.

    I remember seeing JonBenét in a photo shoot with a simlar rope to the one found under John Andrew's bed.



    Delmar England
    Analysis on the Garrote I
    May 26, 2001

    http://www.acandyrose.com/05262001delmaranalysis2.htm
     
  9. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    "One year, the school decided to have a family party based on a western theme. This was to be not only a fund-raiser, but also was to build community spirit. Patsy took on a major responsibility, wanting to make this something really special for the children. Patsy invited Burke's class and their parents to her home to make preparations. This included painting scenery and making props. What a wonderful, memorable (and messy!) afternoon. One of Patsy's biggest talents is her organization. She had all of the materials ready for the day--paint and cardboard and fabric and ribbon, etc. And she didn't just supervise. She pitched in and did the hard work: painting, cutting, glueing, and anything else that needed to be done."

    :censored: See how they play?! Susan Stine says it like this - "One year, the school....." when the sign in the picture clearly says the 1996 High Peaks Round Up!
    :tsktsk:

    That "One Year" was a helluva year.....
     
  10. heymom

    heymom Member

    This rope loop could be an imitation of a lasso, by someone who either knew nothing about lassos, or who ran out of rope. It is not a part of a horse's bit, bridle, halter or reins. I could believe that someone made a loop of light rope, perhaps thinking of the rope loops that he or she had seen on the backs of saddles in Western movies. Why it would be hanging there, I can't imagine. If there was a saddle in the display, the rope would belong at the back of it.

    It doesn't look as if much thought or care was put into it, and if it's supposed to be a noose, it doesn't resemble one very much. Only the way the rope is hanging down in a teardrop shape gives the impression of a noose.

    Now, did Patsy make this? It's a distinct possibility. On the night JonBenet died, did she pull this out of her subconcious memory? Again, a distinct possibility. It is creepy to see something like a noose quite close to JonBenet, nearer to her mother.

    Thanks for the photo, it's very intriguing.
     
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    Can we blow up the junk behind Patsy? I can't figure out what all that stuff is, and I can't see if maybe there IS a saddle somewhere in there. Thanks!
     
  12. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    Linda McLean didn't do Patsy any favors by publishing this book, that's for sure. McLean is a wealth of information that has not been tapped enough. Any anecdotes and documents that can display Patsy's personality are valuable in sleuthing this case.

    I missed the looped rope in this picture while perusing the book. No detail shoud be overlooked. But I did find another picture (on p. 75 of the paperback) of another example of Patsy's (?) knotwork that I thought was eery. Balloons are tied to a pile of gifts and there is, you guessed it, a loop in the knots and one line going towards JonBenet's neck. I don't think this has much to do with the crime at all but I thought that picture was wierd to say the least.

    Can someone post that one please?
     
  13. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    me too

    I think someone helping with the decorating thought a lasso would be appropriate to the cowboy scene. It could have even been a child who made it, and not wanting to discourage the child the adults used it as a decoration. As weird as some people in Boulder are, I don't think they would intentionally put a noose in the decorations for an elementary school party.
    I do know someone who ropes cows if we later have any questions about lassos.
     
  14. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

  15. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Elle, I too tied the neck knot according to D. England's instructions - not only is it a very simple knot, it is also totally unfunctional for any later pulling action, for the knot was TIED first, therefore any later pulling becomes redundant. Even to me as a layperson not schooled in knot tying at all, it became clear that the stager of the scene must have known next to nothing about ligatures which work properly.

    D. England (EasyWriter) seems to have stopped posting on this forum, which imo is a big loss. Lassos, hangmans's nooses, you name it - he knows how to do them all, always giving detailed instructions whenever asked on the forum or via email. It was Delmar England who tore the mask of pretense off the so-called 'garrote' scene, exposing it as a clumsily staged scene. Who knows where the JBR 'garotte' evidence discussion would be today if it weren't for his input.
     
  16. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    I agree, Texan, about it being a lasso, even though it looks like a noose. After all, the theme is that of a round up, not a vigilante posse ready to string up some cattle rustler.


    -Tea
     
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Interesting ideas, all.

    I hadn't thought of a glass reflection, Elle. But I think I see a knot where the two loops are tied together...?

    Paradox, I'll look for the pic you bring up and scan it and send it to the mods.

    Thanks for the "lasso" images, JC. That isn't at all what the "noose" looks like to me.

    Heymom, Texan, and Tea: If it was a "lasso", why so small? A lasso is much larger, it seems to me. Look at JC's links for reference.

    As for Delmar's knot assessment, I disagree. I know he has extensive knot experience, but I took the picture of the wrist knot, which is clear in the crime scene pics, and made a very workable "sliding" noose using it for a guide. I could be wrong, of course, and I'm certainly not experienced as he is, but it worked on my leg so effectively, I had trouble getting it off. Since JonBenet was strangled by pulling the noose on her neck, I just can't accept the argument it didn't work. It obviously did. It slipped tightly and then remained tight, from the friction created with the knot construction. But that's JMO.

    I have no idea what this particular "noose" or "lasso" or loop is all about, but I still think it should have been examined and the questions should have been asked: Who made this? What is it?

    Barbara, I didn't actually expect to find anything in the pictures. I was looking for other information in the book. Like you said, Paradox, there is a wealth of info on Patsy in this book, her character and habits. For example, the MEGA-Mexican hats we've all seen pics of, with Patsy and JonBenet, was something one of Patsy's friends mentioned as used by them as children in dance routines or some such. Other repetitious behavior of Patsy's I found interesting was her copying the characters in the "Miss Jean Brody" piece she couldn't use in the Miss America Pageant; Patsy wrote her own piece using the similar characters, McLean said, so Patsy could keep her already perfected performance and "voices" of those characters for the pageant, rather than creating new ones. Patsy seems to have been predisposed to copying things from other sources: remember all the ransom note references from movie ransom notes/demands?

    Another thing about this "Western Theme Party" that struck me is how Patsy was such an "organizer". The next part of Stine's tribute to Patsy was about how Patsy helped a friend's husband organize a wonderful birthday party at Patsy's house for the woman: Patsy had yellow roses all over the house, went into great detail planning it, etc. Again we see that Patsy was an elaborate "planner" and organizer, which was Stine's point in what she wrote. Considering the great detail of the ransom note, the staging of the crime, and the decade of intricate cover up, the whole crime fits Patsy, to me.

    Well, I guess we'll never know about this display. Even if investigation of the "noose" in the pic was done, no one will tell us, I'm sure. It could have been kids trying to come up with something "western" of course, and hanging in the Wild West was common. A round-up with a lasso seems reasonable, too, but it doesn't look like something a cowboy would use to lasso a cow because of its size, if nothing else. But if children were playing at making this, it occurs to me that they might have "played" at it later, on JonBenet. Spade and Blue Crab always argued this crime could be the work of children at play, or some parts of it, anyway. I don't know what Doc Miller's and Cookie's theory is as they've never told us outright, and we may never get to read their book about it unless we buy the Japanese edition and have it translated for us, but I always felt it was hinted at that they thought Burke was somehow involved.

    This picture just struck me as chilling, as y'all mentioned, in the context, and worth checking out. I will stubbornly believe it should have been followed up on, if in fact it wasn't.
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I will say that one big THEME of ALL of the friends and family of Patsy's who wrote about her in the McLean book was how PERFECT Patsy was. One even said she was close to a saint. (I'm NOT making this up.) According to contributors in the book, Patsy never lied, never did one thing wrong in her life, was a godsend to everyone who knew her.

    After all of their description of Perfect Patsy, I had to wonder what they'd have thought if they'd learned that JonBenet had been molested by someone in the family, and that she'd died from a head blow from someone in the family. I have to wonder if Patsy thought about that very same thing: perhaps it was too much to imagine a public revelation that she was no longer living the prefect life with the perfect family. Perhaps the only way to continue her image of perfection was to go for the image of perfect victim.

    But we all know Patsy wasn't perfect. By a long shot. Lying came as easy to her as breathing, at least after the murder. We have clear contradictions and lies right from Patsy's own mouth. Anyone who can't see that is deliberately making excuses and avoiding the truth, IMO.

    One other thing about the book and I'll quit: it was published in 1998, and in arguments made about how Perfect Patsy and John could not have done this awful thing, the talking points are the very same ones the RST still argues today, almost word for word.
     
  19. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

    I'd guess Burke made the noose. Ummm, I mean lasso. Gawd, he looks like Patsy. Imho.
     
  20. heymom

    heymom Member

    However, like John, Patsy had her "tells" when she lied. Remember how she closed her eyes during the interview on one of the crockumentaries? The critical question of "Were you involved in any way in the death of JonBenet?" Anyone who watched Patsy very closely would see that she gives herself away. I knew from the time I first saw John and Patsy on television that at least one of them, and most likely both of them, were lying. Somehow, TV cameras make lies easier to see through. (Seems odd because acting is, in a way, lying, but actors believe the fiction they are portraying, so perhaps that's the difference. They are professional liars, as opposed to amateurs.)
     
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