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  1. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    I think you are correct. That's where the punched-out hole in the skull was located.

    From the autopsy report:

    'occipital' = relating to the back of the head,
    'posteroparietal' = relating to the bone covering the side of the skull (parietal bone), postero = the back region of this bone near the occipital region.
    Thanks! That is what I thought. A six year old's skull is not as thick as an adults. I have wondered why it was said that a strong man, with a lot of force caused the blow to her head. It wouldn't have taken THAT much force..her skull wasn't made of cement. Anyway, I still believe that she was shoved violently into either the rounded corner of the sink or the tub. I have wondered if her head may have been STILL in the turtleneck portion of the shirt, turned inside out...with Patsy trying (in a moment of rage) jerk it off of her. Maybe, while her head was STILL in the collar, Patsy...tried to pull the shirt off of her, by jerking on the (turned inside out) sleeves....and threw her into something. As another poster described it..like an egg inside of a sock..(and the sock, still in someone's hand...is being swung into a wall). I am trying to give a visual here, but don't know if it is working.

  2. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    It verbatim says face/ right side of face in the photos on ACR where the abrasion is shown:

    ***WARNING - graphic photos! ***

    http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

    http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceright.jpg

    And how do you think she was "strung up"?
    I HATE looking at those pictures. I wonder what made that mark on the side of her face?

  3. #111
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    I can get a very good picture of that scenario, Ames. Could be why that turtleneck was there in the sink, and also why looking at it in a crime scene pic made PR cry.
    IF ONLY that tub edge, sink, flashlight, bat, etc. had been tested for JBR's DNA- though the bash didn't break the skin, there would still be microscopic traces of her scalp and certainly her hair on whatever caused that fracture.
    Then we'd know what caused that horrific hole in her skull.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  4. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom
    No, he didn't. He fell off the board and onto his right side, and I think he rolled a little, because he had some road rash on his shoulders. He had just a small fracture on the part of his skull inside his ear, narrowly missing his hearing structures. If he had hit just a few mm in the other direction, he'd be permanently deaf on that side.

    He had some bleeding around the fracture site, which also bled out his ear, right from the start and then until the next day. That was very troubling, but the neurologist said it was good, so I tried to stay calm.

    As I understand it, he could have had a contrecoup injury if he'd struck more straight down instead of glancing. It's from the rebound of the brain from one surface to the other, from velocity.
    Heymom, how old was your son when this happened? (Does he wear a helmet now?)

  5. #113

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    Rash, I understand what you're saying about various elements of this case that might not be cleared up with a trial, but what I wanted from a trial was to hear DR. MEYER'S testimony. We've never heard what he has to say, and he did the autopsy.

    The problem with trying either of the Ramseys for the murder has always been the law in Colorado: the State has to prove WHO did WHAT. It's not legal to indict both Ramseys and make the case "one of them killed her." John and Patsy have always been each other's "beyond a reasonable doubt" card. That's also true of arresting either of them on obstruction of justice: in order to make that case, first someone must be accused of the actual murder.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  6. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    The problem with trying either of the Ramseys for the murder has always been the law in Colorado: the State has to prove WHO did WHAT. It's not legal to indict both Ramseys and make the case "one of them killed her." John and Patsy have always been each other's "beyond a reasonable doubt" card. That's also true of arresting either of them on obstruction of justice: in order to make that case, first someone must be accused of the actual murder.
    But wouldn't the evidence have been enough to reach the probable cause standard necessary for an arrest?
    You gave a good summary of the issue on the "Questions" thread on Feb 19:
    (bolding mine):
    [koldkase]:

    Rashomon, the evidence must reach the level of "probable cause" for an arrest warrant. That standard is not as high as "beyond a reasonable doubt", needed for a conviction, as you know.

    There certainly was enough evidence to reach the "probable cause" standard. But after Hunter finished sandbagging warrants and handing out evidentiary reports to the Ramseys' law team, he well knew he'd never make the case in a trial. That's exactly what he was after, IMO. It worked.

    But the purpose of arresting on probable cause is to get the suspects into an interrogation room and on the record. Since that didn't happen for four months, it should have been done at the very LEAST after the funeral when the Ramseys still refused to come in for questioning, since THEY CERTAINLY GOT THEMSELVES TO A TV STUDIO FOR A COUPLE OF HOURS OF QUESTIONS THE DAY AFTER THEY BURIED JONBENET!

    Of course the Ramseys would never have answered a question, and their lawyers would have made sure of that. But it should have been done and they should have been put on the record as refusing to answer questions. Lou Smit is on the record stating HE WOULD HAVE ARRESTED THEM IMMEDIATELY IF THEY'D REFUSED TO BE QUESTIONED AFTER THE BODY WAS FOUND. That's the most honest thing Smit has ever said about this case and the Ramseys, in fact. It should have been done. Hunter stopped it from being done. Ever.

    You see, you have to go through the tried and true procedures: there is always a chance the stress of going through the perp walk, fingerprinting, mug shot, etc., might lead to someone talking. Remember Patsy had a hard time keeping her mouth shut. If nothing shook out, the DA could always have dropped the charges. But we'll never know now.

    As you know, any person here in the same circumstances would have been handcuffed and led to the BPD pronto if we refused to cooperate with LE.
    "Arrest them" had also been the advice of the BPD's DreamTeam lawyers.
    Imagine someone like Patsy having to got through the perp walk, with mug shots and all. I can imagine the 'magnolia' mask would have come off her then, and LE would have seen the same raw fury in her which probably made her fly off the handle on that fatal Christmas night also ...

  7. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Rash, I understand what you're saying about various elements of this case that might not be cleared up with a trial, but what I wanted from a trial was to hear DR. MEYER'S testimony. We've never heard what he has to say, and he did the autopsy.
    Indeed, Dr. Meyer's testimony would have been absolutely pivotal. For what he said to Linda Arndt does not show up in the written version of the autopsy report which has been made public. But then the complete autopsy report contains far more than the condensed nine pages which are accesible via the net.

    IIRC, Meyer told Anrndt that the child had been digitally penetrated.
    In the autopsy report, it says:

    Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is
    reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps
    more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly.
    A circumferential hyperemia in that area of the body ('reddish' indicating it had been caused very recently) can't be explained away by bubble bath or underwear wet form urine.
    So either JonBenet had indeed been molested on that night, OR the stager of the scene penetrated her digitally (or with the paintbrush) to create a molestation scene with the purpose of misdirecting LE.

    Even if it was done 'only' for staging purposes by the parents who already believed her dead - parents callous enough to do this to their own child ad then tie a ligature around her neck are capable of anything imo.

    The Ramseys denied JonBenet medical assistance because they did not want to come out what had happened to her. I'm not at all sure anymore if they really thought she was dead. Maybe she was "as good as dead" in their eyes and they did not want to be saddled with a permanently brain-damaged child.
    I wouldn't put it past them.

    In a way, they did 'sacrifice' Jonbenet, but not to any god imo.
    They sacrificed the live of their little daughter because they wanted to save their hide. They mercilessly let their child her perish down there in the dark basement, and when the dead body was brought up, they let her lie there under the Christmas tree like a broken doll beyond repair.

  8. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    "Saving the face from abrasion"? "You" should rethink your scenario since JonBenet did have abrasions on her face. They are listed in the autosy report. A theory should follow the evidence, and not be constructed ignoring the evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    It verbatim says face/ right side of face in the photos on ACR where the abrasion is shown:
    ACR is not the autopsy report. Where in the autopsy report does it list abrasions (plural) on the face?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee
    It has the same meaning...mandible means the jaw line. Just by looking at the pictures, whether you define it as mandible, jawline, face or side of face- the abrasions are there in plain view. There is only one there,
    No it is not the same. The position of abrasions can help determine how the body was handled, which can determine the order of wounds, which can determine motive.

  9. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    ACR is not the autopsy report. Where in the autopsy report does it list abrasions (plural) on the face?



    No it is not the same. The position of abrasions can help determine how the body was handled, which can determine the order of wounds, which can determine motive.
    Here are 4 sources:

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...77/detail.html

    same here:
    http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...y/autopsy.html

    and here:
    http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.ca...l.autopsy.html

    and here:
    http://bsapp.com/forensics_illustrat...%20Bodies%20&%

    There are multiple mentions of abrasions but they seem to be in various places on poor JonBenet's body.
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  10. #118

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    Yes, as Thomas said himself, there was enough evidence for a "probable cause" arrest. But you can't take "probable cause" standard to trial. At trial, the prosecutor must prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" which one tied the garrote on the neck and pulled it to strangle her to death. At trial the prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt who struck the head blow, or if you will, threw or bashed JonBenet so furiously against "something" it cracked her skull nearly in half.

    The fibers from Patsy's jacket are in the knots of the garrote. But she lived there, she interacted with her child on the night in question, and her "story" of underdressing JonBenet that night for bed would include transferring her jacket fibers onto JonBenet's clothes. That could in turn have gotten into the garrote by transference. It's not a done deal by any means in a trial.

    It could be argued successfully by even a mediocre defense lawyer that John easily could have had--probably did have--Patsy's jacket fibers on HIS clothes. She was his wife, and it's natural to assume they had contact with each other in various ways that evening. They spent the evening together, after all. He picked up JonBenet, he said, to carry her to bed. Even if that's a lie, there's no way to PROVE he's lying about that. Even if you could prove John is lying about that, a defense lawyer would argue that John killed JonBenet and had Patsy's fibers on his clothes, and that's why they ended up in the garrote. And vice versa on the fibers found on JonBenet's genital area said to be consistent with John's sweater/shirt from that night.

    That's what I meant when I said they are each other's best defense. At trial, how could a jury determine beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT which one did what?

    Staging the "molestation" with the paintbrush was to cover up prior molestation, IMO. There is no other reason I can imagine anyone, including an intruder, would have used a paintbrush or object on the child in such a manner. Child molesters are child molesters, and they believe they're bringing pleasure to the child, sick as they are. What about a paintbrush insertion would do that? And why would a parent do such a thing? It's unspeakable.

    So the only motive that makes sense to me is that the alternative was more horriflying to the perp(s): prison for child molestation and child abuse resulting in death. I don't believe either Ramsey was willing to put themselves into the hand of LE that night, no matter what had to be done to prevent that.

    I wonder if the garroting occurred because JonBenet wasn't dying from the head wound as quickly as expected and needed, once the head blow set the nightmare in motion. Remember the Ramseys were expected at the airport, with Archuletta awaiting them that morning at 7 am. The "big kids" were shortly to be on their way to Minnesota to await their pick up in the family plane as well. If cell phone calls were made to key people, perhaps a doctor who was a "family friend" and to a lawyer who would be able to advise them of the law, not much time was left to stage the scene to allow them to get out of the house, the state, and into the hands of their lawyers who would shield them from LE.

    Of course, that's one theory, no better or worse than some others. It's all arguable, and we have argued it to death. I'm just throwing out some things to think about here.

    Here's what I think I know:

    JonBenet was molested before the night she died.

    She received a head blow that cleaved her skull in half; the blow shattered and displaced a portion of the skull.

    She was strangled from behind with a noose fashioned in a strange way, tied onto her neck, not tied and then looped over her head, in the basement near the cellar room and Patsy's paint tray.

    Her mouth was duct taped, her wrists loosely tied, and her body staged in the cellar room on top of a blanket which was wrapped around her, then the door was latched at the top.

    At some point in this sequence of events, which may or may not have happened in the order I am listing them, the paintbrush was inserted into her vagina.

    Patsy wrote the note: the handwriting is a match, the language is a match, it was clearly staging, as there was no kidnapping. Her pad was used. Her Sharpie pen was used.

    It took no less than a couple of hours for all of this activity, probably more.

    911 was called.

    There were no defensive wounds on JonBenet's body or extreminties.

    Patsy's jacket fibers were entwined in the knots of the garrote. John's sweater/shirt fibers were found where JonBenet had been wiped down in her genital area. Patsy's jacket fibers were in the paint tray. Patsy's paintbrush had been broken there and tied onto the garrote as a handle.

    She had eaten pineapple within an hour or more of her death which came from the home and was found on the Ramsey table, but which no one admits she ate at the home.

    The Bloomies underwear found on her body was so overly large it would have been impossible for her to have worn them while standing without them falling to her feet. (See my icon picture and the link in my signature to a full discussion and Jayelles' model of this.) Yet Patsy claimed JonBenet put them on herself from a pack of Bloomies bought for a child twice JonBenet's size. That pack disappeared after the murder; it then resurfaced five years later...given by Lin Wood to Mary Lacy. The Ramseys claim it was found by their PI when LE missed it during a 10 day evidence collection at the Boulder home, yet they never turned it over to LE during that five years, though Patsy admitted in a 2000 interview with LE she knew it was important evidence.

    The Ramseys' home and cell phone records have never been obtained with a subpoena in 11 years. The "blank" cell phone record for the month of Dec. 1996 "voluntarily" turned over to LE a year after the murder is suspicious in the extreme under the circumstances, and I put my money on that cell phone having been used to make calls before the 911 call that morning. The phone records for the months preceeding the murder and after the murder were NEVER obtained nor "volunteered".

    Alex Hunter acted with complete and utter corruption when he obstructed the BPD's investigation into the murder from day one, sharing evidence with the prime suspects and denying any subpoena needed by LE for the Ramsey phone records. Lou Smit is equally responsible, though I can't say if he was just ignorant as an investigator, so full of himself he was driven by ego, or actually in on the cover up initially.

    I could go on, but I don't have the time now. Feel free to add.
    Last edited by koldkase; March 2, 2008, 6:35 pm at Sun Mar 2 18:35:52 UTC 2008.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #119

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    And let me say for those who might criticize harping on the "missing" phone records: if nothing was there, THEN THE RAMSEYS SHOULD BE FURIOUS that these records weren't obtained by LE under subpoena, because that would futher clear up suspicions they'll never escape now. But if the records were buried BECAUSE of what they contained, then tampered with to erase that evidence in the year it took to "hand them over", getting those records immediately, WHICH ANY DECENT INVESTIGATOR WOULD HAVE DONE, could have solved this case in the first week.

    And that's why I won't forget the importance of those phone records. EVER.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMES
    First of all...I would like to say that I am glad that he wasn't hurt worse!!! I know that must have scared you to death!!

    You said that he was 14, right? How old was he when he fell from his skateboard?? If he was older than 6, then JB's skull would have been thinner...I have researched a ton of different sites on the thickness of the skull at different ages. I have said it before...sorry for repeating myself..but a 6 year old can crack their skull from falling off a bike...so imagine what some force behind that would do.
    This just happened in July of 2007, last summer. He was 13 then. Funny, his initials are JB too...
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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